Car and Driver Comparo: IS350 F Sport beats 335i M Sport!!!
06-10-13, 01:02 PM
#61
True intrinsic quality for the small number of car enthusiasts, and perceived/notional quality and sales figures from the mass public, are two different facets.
For example, the old Lexus 3GS was not a spacious, nor great handling car, yet it amassed 33,457 in 2005 and 27,390 in 2006.
However, the new 4GS is a much roomier car, with great steering feel, quicker changes in direction, and higher terminal grip on the skid pan, yet it only amassed 22,160 last year, and is struggling with only 7,340 sales for the first 5 months of 2013.
The car enthusiast and the mass public obviously have different priorities.
The mass public puts a heavy emphasis on badge, looks, and space - three things that you notice, without even having to start the engine!
The 4GS was conceived roughly at a time when Toyota was in the red.
However, not so for the 3IS.
The 3IS would have been conceived at a time when Toyota had bounced back into the black.
Thus, the 3IS has 8 speed gear boxes, split folding rear seats, 100 mm longer wheelbase, and all.
With the new Lexus 3IS, it is possible that it may have the best of both worlds?
The 3IS may turn out to have both enthusiasts credibility, and sales as well?
It is very possible for the 3IS to match or exceed the 54,267 2IS sales of 2006, 54,933 sales of 2007, and 49,432 of 2008.
If 3IS sales do fall behind 2IS sales, I can't imagine the 3IS being too far behind...
For example, the old Lexus 3GS was not a spacious, nor great handling car, yet it amassed 33,457 in 2005 and 27,390 in 2006.
However, the new 4GS is a much roomier car, with great steering feel, quicker changes in direction, and higher terminal grip on the skid pan, yet it only amassed 22,160 last year, and is struggling with only 7,340 sales for the first 5 months of 2013.
The car enthusiast and the mass public obviously have different priorities.
The mass public puts a heavy emphasis on badge, looks, and space - three things that you notice, without even having to start the engine!
The 4GS was conceived roughly at a time when Toyota was in the red.
However, not so for the 3IS.
The 3IS would have been conceived at a time when Toyota had bounced back into the black.
Thus, the 3IS has 8 speed gear boxes, split folding rear seats, 100 mm longer wheelbase, and all.
With the new Lexus 3IS, it is possible that it may have the best of both worlds?
The 3IS may turn out to have both enthusiasts credibility, and sales as well?
It is very possible for the 3IS to match or exceed the 54,267 2IS sales of 2006, 54,933 sales of 2007, and 49,432 of 2008.
If 3IS sales do fall behind 2IS sales, I can't imagine the 3IS being too far behind...
I often dont understand your reasoning.
Worldwide, 3GS and 4GS sales are about the same for 1st year... 4GS will likely easily outsell 3GS in next 5 years.
What does it have to do with Toyota being in black or red? Do you think that Toyota doesnt have a budget to develop cars or something? It has biggest R&D budget in the world, and it has had one while it developed 4GS as well.
06-10-13, 07:11 PM
#63
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Thus, the 3IS has 8 speed gear boxes, split folding rear seats, 100 mm longer wheelbase, and all.
With the new Lexus 3IS, it is possible that it may have the best of both worlds?
The 3IS may turn out to have both enthusiasts credibility, and sales as well?
It is very possible for the 3IS to match or exceed the 54,267 2IS sales of 2006, 54,933 sales of 2007, and 49,432 of 2008.
If 3IS sales do fall behind 2IS sales, I can't imagine the 3IS being too far behind...
With the new Lexus 3IS, it is possible that it may have the best of both worlds?
The 3IS may turn out to have both enthusiasts credibility, and sales as well?
It is very possible for the 3IS to match or exceed the 54,267 2IS sales of 2006, 54,933 sales of 2007, and 49,432 of 2008.
If 3IS sales do fall behind 2IS sales, I can't imagine the 3IS being too far behind...
Whatever costs they incurred by adding new features, the made up for and then some by taking away others. I don't think it has anything to do with red or black, and if it does, and we factor in everything, it seems to me they're still in the red.
06-11-13, 11:33 PM
#64
We all know as a fact is that from sales of 2005's 3GS @ 33,457 fell to the 2012 4GS's 22,160.
The first five months this year, the 2013 4GS has sold 7,340 units.
In a few weeks time, the end of June will allow us to double the 4GS sales to get a very very rough estimate of 4GS' 2013 sales.
The 4GS is heading for sub-20k sales in the States this year.
It could be as little as 15k even, with the new 3IS cannibalizing some sales from 4GS too?
I don't think the Lexus dealerships and sales reps in the United States could be all that happy with these figures?
Meanwhile in the same period, the E Class increased from 2005's 50,383 to 2012's 65,171.
Similarly, the 5 Series increased from 2005's 52,722 to 2012's 56,798.
I'm not sure exactly what factor is affecting 4GS sales?
In the previous web page Post #49, Dseag2 postulates that the so called "Lexus old man's car" theory is responsible for 4GS sales, but surely that Lexus old man's theory would have affected 2005 3GS sales too, but it didn't?
Maybe the 100 mm wheelbase stretch, and the 8 speed auto is a "big addition" to the new 3IS?
The split folding rear seats is a biggish one too.
While the 4GS's head up display, and the lane change indicators, are only small improvements?
The 4GS does have rear wheel steering package, but then we are talking about the mass public.
Enthusiasts are too small a number to affect overall sales.
Maybe it is the 4GS styling outside and even inside, because styling really affects the average mass public decision to purchase?
A car with less stylish styling does not emotionally win the mass public's affection, so the mass public politely says nice and kind words, but then they quietly turn their attention and cheque books to the competition, purchasing the competition.
That's what is certainly happening on the sales charts at the moment.
This new 3IS is an 18 month evolution of the 4GS.
Fortunately, this new 3IS is a sexy refinement evolution of the 4GS.
Somehow, this 2013 3IS has the style.
I suspect this new 2013 3IS will repeat the 2006 2IS 54,213 units.
Sure, the new 3IS central console is a bit plasticky, and the touch sensitive temperature controls gimicky, and the buttons on the 3IS steering wheel looks cheap, but the 3IS is competing in a lower market and lower category than the 4GS, so the interior shouldn't affect 3IS sales too much.
For the mass public, the 3IS' exterior styling and pose cred is actually more important than its' interior styling.
3IS sales to the mass public looks promising; any ideas on how 4GS can achieve the same???
The first five months this year, the 2013 4GS has sold 7,340 units.
In a few weeks time, the end of June will allow us to double the 4GS sales to get a very very rough estimate of 4GS' 2013 sales.
The 4GS is heading for sub-20k sales in the States this year.
It could be as little as 15k even, with the new 3IS cannibalizing some sales from 4GS too?
I don't think the Lexus dealerships and sales reps in the United States could be all that happy with these figures?
Meanwhile in the same period, the E Class increased from 2005's 50,383 to 2012's 65,171.
Similarly, the 5 Series increased from 2005's 52,722 to 2012's 56,798.
I'm not sure exactly what factor is affecting 4GS sales?
In the previous web page Post #49, Dseag2 postulates that the so called "Lexus old man's car" theory is responsible for 4GS sales, but surely that Lexus old man's theory would have affected 2005 3GS sales too, but it didn't?
Maybe the 100 mm wheelbase stretch, and the 8 speed auto is a "big addition" to the new 3IS?
The split folding rear seats is a biggish one too.
While the 4GS's head up display, and the lane change indicators, are only small improvements?
The 4GS does have rear wheel steering package, but then we are talking about the mass public.
Enthusiasts are too small a number to affect overall sales.
Maybe it is the 4GS styling outside and even inside, because styling really affects the average mass public decision to purchase?
A car with less stylish styling does not emotionally win the mass public's affection, so the mass public politely says nice and kind words, but then they quietly turn their attention and cheque books to the competition, purchasing the competition.
That's what is certainly happening on the sales charts at the moment.
This new 3IS is an 18 month evolution of the 4GS.
Fortunately, this new 3IS is a sexy refinement evolution of the 4GS.
Somehow, this 2013 3IS has the style.
I suspect this new 2013 3IS will repeat the 2006 2IS 54,213 units.
Sure, the new 3IS central console is a bit plasticky, and the touch sensitive temperature controls gimicky, and the buttons on the 3IS steering wheel looks cheap, but the 3IS is competing in a lower market and lower category than the 4GS, so the interior shouldn't affect 3IS sales too much.
For the mass public, the 3IS' exterior styling and pose cred is actually more important than its' interior styling.
3IS sales to the mass public looks promising; any ideas on how 4GS can achieve the same???
Last edited by peteharvey; 06-12-13 at 12:55 AM.
06-12-13, 09:22 AM
#65
Before anyone responds as to stating "BMW fanboy," no, I am not. In regards to automobiles, I am neutral to the brand and focus on the whole package (drive feel, performance, tech, and relative price.) If anyone has their doubts, please test drive both models (fully loaded) for at least 20 minutes each and then thoroughly go through the technology offered.
06-12-13, 11:32 AM
#66
Enthusiasts are only small in numbers.
The mass public is the huge number that affects the sales.
The mass public tend not to be too interested in Brembo brakes and slalom and skid pan performance and the like.
The mass public are more inclined to prioritize areas like badge, looks, space, and bottom end torque that Itsmike77 brought up.
So yes, one of the reasons the Benz and Beamers sell so well is because not only do they have the badge, but the mass public also probably finds that the Germans have more rear space, especially rear foot room than the 4GS and probably the 3IS too for that matter.
The mass public are also sensitive to bottom end torque, so they will notice the Germans have more bottom end punch than both the 4GS and new 3IS.
Hence, the E/5, and the 3 Series and C Class sell better than the 4GS and 3IS; no surprises there.
I'm sure the 3 Series will continue selling 100,000 units, while the C Class will sell some 80,000 units in the United States this year, with the 3IS only expecting around 50,000 to 60,000 units in its first year; no arguments here.
However, on the subject of bottom end torque, the mass public, and sales, remember back in 2005 and 2006?
The old 2006 3GS350 actually had MORE bottom end torque than the equivalent 2006 E350 Benz which back then used the horrible, coarse and gutless old 3.5L 90 degree V6 block, yet the E350 still sold better than the 3GS350!
Bottom end torque is definitely important to the mass public, but that just goes to show that badge, looks, and space, all missing from the 3GS - is even more important than bottom end punch.
Thanks to its sexy styling, I'm sure the 3IS will match the 2IS for sales to the mass public, but question is, what exactly went wrong with 3GS to 4GS sales?
Presently, sales reps in the USA wouldn't be rejoicing over current 4GS sales figures?
What caused the fall, and what can be done to fix the condition?
I don't know for sure, but I suspect it has a lot to do with styling?
If the new sexy 3IS sells well in its first year, then I suspect the 4GS downfall may be attributed to its styling, such that it really needs an early facelift, not just for styling, but to get 8 speed gearboxes, and fold down rear seats etc?
Personally, I actually find the 4GS nose, C pillar styling, polygonal-like exhaust tips, and interior materials more attractive than the 3IS.
However, I must agree that overall, the 3IS has more pizazz in its styling than the 4GS, thank to the 3IS' sexy rear end.
With such great potential, hopefully they can facelift the 4GS quickly, to emulate the sales success of the 3IS....
The mass public is the huge number that affects the sales.
The mass public tend not to be too interested in Brembo brakes and slalom and skid pan performance and the like.
The mass public are more inclined to prioritize areas like badge, looks, space, and bottom end torque that Itsmike77 brought up.
So yes, one of the reasons the Benz and Beamers sell so well is because not only do they have the badge, but the mass public also probably finds that the Germans have more rear space, especially rear foot room than the 4GS and probably the 3IS too for that matter.
The mass public are also sensitive to bottom end torque, so they will notice the Germans have more bottom end punch than both the 4GS and new 3IS.
Hence, the E/5, and the 3 Series and C Class sell better than the 4GS and 3IS; no surprises there.
I'm sure the 3 Series will continue selling 100,000 units, while the C Class will sell some 80,000 units in the United States this year, with the 3IS only expecting around 50,000 to 60,000 units in its first year; no arguments here.
However, on the subject of bottom end torque, the mass public, and sales, remember back in 2005 and 2006?
The old 2006 3GS350 actually had MORE bottom end torque than the equivalent 2006 E350 Benz which back then used the horrible, coarse and gutless old 3.5L 90 degree V6 block, yet the E350 still sold better than the 3GS350!
Bottom end torque is definitely important to the mass public, but that just goes to show that badge, looks, and space, all missing from the 3GS - is even more important than bottom end punch.
Thanks to its sexy styling, I'm sure the 3IS will match the 2IS for sales to the mass public, but question is, what exactly went wrong with 3GS to 4GS sales?
Presently, sales reps in the USA wouldn't be rejoicing over current 4GS sales figures?
What caused the fall, and what can be done to fix the condition?
I don't know for sure, but I suspect it has a lot to do with styling?
If the new sexy 3IS sells well in its first year, then I suspect the 4GS downfall may be attributed to its styling, such that it really needs an early facelift, not just for styling, but to get 8 speed gearboxes, and fold down rear seats etc?
Personally, I actually find the 4GS nose, C pillar styling, polygonal-like exhaust tips, and interior materials more attractive than the 3IS.
However, I must agree that overall, the 3IS has more pizazz in its styling than the 4GS, thank to the 3IS' sexy rear end.
With such great potential, hopefully they can facelift the 4GS quickly, to emulate the sales success of the 3IS....
Last edited by peteharvey; 06-12-13 at 11:53 AM.
06-12-13, 03:08 PM
#67
I have stated previously, having driven both the GS350 FSport and the 535 MSport back to back, I can see why the 5 series sells better. Looks and exterior design aside, the 535 had more high tech gizmos, does drive "better" over ALL road conditions, engine and transmission is more responsive and with more torque.
Before anyone responds as to stating "BMW fanboy," no, I am not. In regards to automobiles, I am neutral to the brand and focus on the whole package (drive feel, performance, tech, and relative price.) If anyone has their doubts, please test drive both models (fully loaded) for at least 20 minutes each and then thoroughly go through the technology offered.
Before anyone responds as to stating "BMW fanboy," no, I am not. In regards to automobiles, I am neutral to the brand and focus on the whole package (drive feel, performance, tech, and relative price.) If anyone has their doubts, please test drive both models (fully loaded) for at least 20 minutes each and then thoroughly go through the technology offered.
what exact tech gizmos does the 535i have and GS doesnt?
06-12-13, 04:20 PM
#68
BM does offer fancy gadgets like optional left and right lane change cameras, and LCD monitors at the back of the front seats etc, however I don't think the tech gizmos is the main reason why BM's sell better to the mass public.
Me thinks it's still more so to do with the mass public's love for badge, looks, space and bottom end punch...
Me thinks it's still more so to do with the mass public's love for badge, looks, space and bottom end punch...
06-13-13, 04:26 AM
#69
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I personally find the 4GS overall package very good although exterior seems to lack some pizzazz versus the 5-series. I can't find the correct words to describe and basically, the 4GS is really nice but perhaps not enough to go out and buy one. It doesn't help that this class of cars cost over $100,000 here in the Philippines.
However, I think the 3IS will probably be a game changer for Lexus at least locally as the IS350 F-Sport is loaded with many options yet priced similarly to a base BMW 320d and Mercedes C180.
However, I think the 3IS will probably be a game changer for Lexus at least locally as the IS350 F-Sport is loaded with many options yet priced similarly to a base BMW 320d and Mercedes C180.
06-13-13, 09:28 AM
#70
Lexus Fanatic
Why does every conversation about the 3IS have to devolve into a conversation about the 4GS? We get it Pete...you dislike the 4GS and think its a failure. We're well versed in your opinions on the matter.
Why don't we talk about the 3IS?
Only CL Lexus "enthusiasts" would turn a thread about the new IS winning a comparison test against the BMW 3 series, DESPITE having less power, which is a really, really big deal, into a negative thread about the car and the brand. Sad. Sometimes I feel like I'm on a BMW forum...
Why don't we talk about the 3IS?
Only CL Lexus "enthusiasts" would turn a thread about the new IS winning a comparison test against the BMW 3 series, DESPITE having less power, which is a really, really big deal, into a negative thread about the car and the brand. Sad. Sometimes I feel like I'm on a BMW forum...
Last edited by SW17LS; 06-13-13 at 09:37 AM.
06-13-13, 01:43 PM
#71
Why does every conversation about the 3IS have to devolve into a conversation about the 4GS? We get it Pete...you dislike the 4GS and think its a failure. We're well versed in your opinions on the matter.
Why don't we talk about the 3IS?
Only CL Lexus "enthusiasts" would turn a thread about the new IS winning a comparison test against the BMW 3 series, DESPITE having less power, which is a really, really big deal, into a negative thread about the car and the brand. Sad. Sometimes I feel like I'm on a BMW forum...
Why don't we talk about the 3IS?
Only CL Lexus "enthusiasts" would turn a thread about the new IS winning a comparison test against the BMW 3 series, DESPITE having less power, which is a really, really big deal, into a negative thread about the car and the brand. Sad. Sometimes I feel like I'm on a BMW forum...
There have been some worthy questions raised about the way the 335i is 1 second quicker to 60, 2 seconds quicker to 100, and 4 seconds quicker to 130.
Outright in-line performance, or outright dynamic performance - either can be victors.
It all depends on the sum of their parts, and the package as a whole.
Because these journalist comparisons are not very detailed, often a real test drive is required to determine the victor.
To make matters more complicated, it's horses for courses.
What is good for one person, may be a failure to another person.
A gasoline engine may be good for one person, while a diesel may be preferred by another person.
So, in these 3 way comparisons, the most important outcome is actually the strengths and weaknesses of each car - not the outright winner - which can actually be different, depending on each person's tastes.
One must learn to talk about the "car" - not the person.
Btw, since when did I say I dislike the 4GS?
I have owned 3 Lexus cars, and none of them are anywhere close to top selling - yet I still like them and buy them.
Since when did I say the 4GS was a failure?
It's not me, but it is the American people who determined that the 4GS sold: 1099 in Jan, 1108 in Feb, 1882 in March, and 1236 in April etc.
If you are not happy with the American people's choice, then you must be constructive, find out what the mass public wants in the car, and communicate those findings to Lexus.
Making personal posts doesn't help.
The new 3IS is a car that the GS can learn from, because the new 3IS possibly has a deft combination of being both a comparison winner, and actually selling solidly across America in the real world...
Last edited by peteharvey; 06-13-13 at 02:07 PM.
06-13-13, 03:19 PM
#72
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SW13GS acts as if someone insulted his baby sister everytime someone says something negative about the 3IS. He routinely trolls my posts if I'm not praising the cheap looking plastic interior.
06-13-13, 04:24 PM
#73
Lexus Fanatic
You'd think we could give them the benefit of the doubt...but we never seem to.
Last edited by SW17LS; 06-13-13 at 04:45 PM.
06-13-13, 05:15 PM
#75
Lexus Fanatic
Its not meant to be personal, I'd just like to see us all be more positive about our brand...