Looks like a wagon / estate version is coming!
01-11-13, 07:24 AM
#16
Lexus Fanatic
"Pretty good" and "dominant" are two different things. Their market share is very small.
Even more examples why I think a wagon is unlikely.
Actually, Lexus has no intention what so ever to become a mainstream car in Europe, just like Jaguar and Alfa Romeo. Thats confirmed in many interwievs with Lexus European headquaters.
01-11-13, 07:35 AM
#17
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01-11-13, 07:43 AM
#18
Lexus Fanatic
Jaguar is a different company than Lexus/Toyota. Europe is their home market, they've successfully sold wagons before. Note...they don't offer the Sportbrake in the US.
I'm not talking about how the public perceives the brand in regards to sales numbers. Toyota/Lexus is a for profit company, if they develop a product...they need to sell them...so I promise you THEY care about sales numbers. We've established that wagons do not sell well in the US, and that they sell well primarily in Europe. We've established that Lexus sells relatively few vehicles in Europe (market share is something like 0.2%) compared to their larger market, the US.
The question is, would Lexus design, build, and market a car that only has a prayer of selling well in its weakest market? I doubt it.
Its not like dropping in a diesel engine or something like that, building a wagon variant is a huge commitment. Any vehicle Lexus develops has got to be able to do well in the US for it to be viable.
I'm not talking about how the public perceives the brand in regards to sales numbers. Toyota/Lexus is a for profit company, if they develop a product...they need to sell them...so I promise you THEY care about sales numbers. We've established that wagons do not sell well in the US, and that they sell well primarily in Europe. We've established that Lexus sells relatively few vehicles in Europe (market share is something like 0.2%) compared to their larger market, the US.
The question is, would Lexus design, build, and market a car that only has a prayer of selling well in its weakest market? I doubt it.
Its not like dropping in a diesel engine or something like that, building a wagon variant is a huge commitment. Any vehicle Lexus develops has got to be able to do well in the US for it to be viable.
Last edited by SW17LS; 01-11-13 at 07:47 AM.
01-11-13, 07:57 AM
#21
Lexus Fanatic
Bear in mind, anything sent to the US has to be crash tested, has to pass DOT standards...big investment for certain failure. Just look at the TSX wagon...one year and done.
01-11-13, 08:01 AM
#22
So its going to be there for sure. This is not a rumor.
Their market share in Europe is not small, it is large. In Germany, most A4's are sold as Wagons for instance.
01-11-13, 08:08 AM
#23
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I only know one thing. If salesnumbers was prio 1, then they should have brought us a diesel like 10 years ago. Honestly, the IS220d is a joke so that one does not count. Its like 15 years after the competition in terms of transmission, power and driveability.
The main reason of "poor sales" is of course Audi, Mecedes and BMW . As I said, image and respect will take another 10 ( at least) years for Lexus to built up here, Europeans are very conservative and rejects alomst everything without history and tradition when it comes to premium products. But on the other hand, if Lexus wants to change that they must do something. An IS Sportcross would be a good step in that direction in my opinion. Actually , I would buy one
The main reason of "poor sales" is of course Audi, Mecedes and BMW . As I said, image and respect will take another 10 ( at least) years for Lexus to built up here, Europeans are very conservative and rejects alomst everything without history and tradition when it comes to premium products. But on the other hand, if Lexus wants to change that they must do something. An IS Sportcross would be a good step in that direction in my opinion. Actually , I would buy one
01-11-13, 08:34 AM
#24
Lexus Fanatic
Same is true of a wagon.
if Lexus wants to change that they must do something. An IS Sportcross would be a good step in that direction in my opinion. Actually , I would buy one
Originally Posted by spwolf
Their market share in Europe is not small, it is large. In Germany, most A4's are sold as Wagons for instance.
Wagons are VERY popular in Europe, but they aren't popular anywhere else, especially here.
what is there to be likely or not likely, Toyota said to check for it in 3 days.
So its going to be there for sure. This is not a rumor.
So its going to be there for sure. This is not a rumor.
I could be wrong, and maybe Lexus will try the same failure again...but mark my words, if they do it'll be one and done, like the TSX.
01-11-13, 08:36 AM
#25
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IMO Lexus is not even trying in Europe.
Here, in Switzerland, the CT starts at 42300 Fr, when A3 - at 29800, 1 series at 25900 and A-class at 33300.
Same with IS vs A4, 3-ser and C-class - 54100 vs 38200, 33900 and 45300.
Or GS vs A6, 5 and E-class - 69900 vs 50850, 54300 and 55200.
What sales are to be expected when a base CT is more expensive than base A4 and 3-series?
Lexus offers much more upscale base models, but it is the base versions that generate sales.
Here, in Switzerland, the CT starts at 42300 Fr, when A3 - at 29800, 1 series at 25900 and A-class at 33300.
Same with IS vs A4, 3-ser and C-class - 54100 vs 38200, 33900 and 45300.
Or GS vs A6, 5 and E-class - 69900 vs 50850, 54300 and 55200.
What sales are to be expected when a base CT is more expensive than base A4 and 3-series?
Lexus offers much more upscale base models, but it is the base versions that generate sales.
01-11-13, 08:37 AM
#26
IMO Lexus is not even trying in Europe.
Here, in Switzerland, the CT starts at 42300 Fr, when A3 - at 29800, 1 series at 25900 and A-class at 33300.
Same with IS vs A4, 3-ser and C-class - 54100 vs 38200, 33900 and 45300.
Or GS vs A6, 5 and E-class - 69900 vs 50850, 54300 and 55200.
Lexus offers much more upscale base models, but it is the base versions that generate sales.
Here, in Switzerland, the CT starts at 42300 Fr, when A3 - at 29800, 1 series at 25900 and A-class at 33300.
Same with IS vs A4, 3-ser and C-class - 54100 vs 38200, 33900 and 45300.
Or GS vs A6, 5 and E-class - 69900 vs 50850, 54300 and 55200.
Lexus offers much more upscale base models, but it is the base versions that generate sales.
300h engine was made for Europe especially. 220hp and 99g/C02.
01-11-13, 08:38 AM
#27
Thats just the thing, thats exactly my point. They haven't invested heavily in diesels for you because they would only be for your market...and Lexus isn't going to do aggressive R&D if the result of that cannot be used for the benefit of their primary market, the US.
Same is true of a wagon.
I thought you said they had no interest in changing that?
I'm not saying the market share of wagons is small, I'm saying Lexus' market share in Europe is small, which it absolutely is.
Wagons are VERY popular in Europe, but they aren't popular anywhere else, especially here.
You don't know whether its going to be a production vehicle, or a concept. The statement from Lexus was very vague, and could very well have been to hold excitement about the IS reveal even in light of the leaked pictures.
I could be wrong, and maybe Lexus will try the same failure again...but mark my words, if they do it'll be one and done, like the TSX.
Same is true of a wagon.
I thought you said they had no interest in changing that?
I'm not saying the market share of wagons is small, I'm saying Lexus' market share in Europe is small, which it absolutely is.
Wagons are VERY popular in Europe, but they aren't popular anywhere else, especially here.
You don't know whether its going to be a production vehicle, or a concept. The statement from Lexus was very vague, and could very well have been to hold excitement about the IS reveal even in light of the leaked pictures.
I could be wrong, and maybe Lexus will try the same failure again...but mark my words, if they do it'll be one and done, like the TSX.
01-11-13, 08:39 AM
#28
Lexus Fanatic
Lexus sold 43,000 units in 2011 in Europe...in the US it sold 200,000.
Just to put that into perspective, Lexus sells about 80,000 ES sedans in the US a year. Just the ES.
Just to put that into perspective, Lexus sells about 80,000 ES sedans in the US a year. Just the ES.
01-11-13, 08:40 AM
#29
Lexus Fanatic
01-11-13, 08:50 AM
#30
which is why they are making more models for Europe to improve the sales. I am struggling to see whats so hard to understand.