Worst clutch i have ever seen
10-29-11, 04:17 AM
#1
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Worst clutch i have ever seen
IS250 6mt is a joke. i have finally had enough of it. since i have owned the car, lexus has already replaced one trans, 6th synchro took a ****,..
when they installed the new one, i had them put in a spec stage 1 clutch because it was cheaper than the stock lexus one. ever since i have had the new one installed, it is VERY hard to get into 1st gear, usually i have to move the lever into third to open up the gate then i can move it into first. it slips while making a medium/high pitched rubbing rounds, and clutch pedal engagement in normal driving is almost all the way out .. and it isnt consistent ..sometimes (most of the time) in stop and go traffic, when i am in first, with the clutch to the floor, once the vehicle stops first gear is still engaged and the engine almost stalls sometimes in you have to yank it hard and it clunks loudly out of gear, which is when it finally disengages and rpm goes back to idle. lexus wont touch it anymore because its not stock clutch. and the mechanics i have talked to at lexus including their "master" mechanic says all of this is normal.. am i completely insane in thinking, nay KNOWING this isnt normal? my concern at this point is not having to get my transmission replaced AGAIN especially once my warranty goes out..do any of you think this Spec clutch will destroy my transmission before i can afford to put a stock lexus clutch back in it?
when they installed the new one, i had them put in a spec stage 1 clutch because it was cheaper than the stock lexus one. ever since i have had the new one installed, it is VERY hard to get into 1st gear, usually i have to move the lever into third to open up the gate then i can move it into first. it slips while making a medium/high pitched rubbing rounds, and clutch pedal engagement in normal driving is almost all the way out .. and it isnt consistent ..sometimes (most of the time) in stop and go traffic, when i am in first, with the clutch to the floor, once the vehicle stops first gear is still engaged and the engine almost stalls sometimes in you have to yank it hard and it clunks loudly out of gear, which is when it finally disengages and rpm goes back to idle. lexus wont touch it anymore because its not stock clutch. and the mechanics i have talked to at lexus including their "master" mechanic says all of this is normal.. am i completely insane in thinking, nay KNOWING this isnt normal? my concern at this point is not having to get my transmission replaced AGAIN especially once my warranty goes out..do any of you think this Spec clutch will destroy my transmission before i can afford to put a stock lexus clutch back in it?
10-29-11, 07:24 AM
#3
He said Spec Stage 1. My 06 has 109,000 on the factory clutch and the only issue I have is a little bit of chatter when I start off. Tranny is smooth. Sounds like they screwed up something when they worked on yours in the past.
10-29-11, 03:22 PM
#5
Many companies share transmissions between trucks and cars, including the older Supra and 4Runner, Pickups, Tacomas, etc. The Transmission in the IS250 was never designed for trucks or cars, it's just a transmission, a set of gears. It's used in more cars than trucks, and it was used in both from the get go, it was never used in trucks and then just thrown into cars afterwards since it was there.
The Tacoma/FJ Cruiser version doesn't use a clutch anywhere near the design of the IS. The trucks use a large push-type clutch with a solid flywheel. The IS uses a pull-type clutch with a dual-mass LuK flywheel, just like the V160 in the Supra Twin-Turbo used. Obviously the Supra transmission is a much stronger design and doesn't use the newer "tailset" design like the RA6x, but the clutch setup is much the same. The RA62 uses tapered roller bearings instead of ball-bearings, and there isn't much centre support for the main shafts, this is due to the torque flow path, and some people have suggested this is in fact a weak design. While it is not necessarily considered as strong, the design puts less stress on the parts and spins them faster. I have not seen any people with any sort of bearing and/or power-related transmission failure, it seems that synchros have been the biggest issue. (See below). The transmission in the IS250 is used in much heavier cars than the IS with much more torque than the IS. It can take way more than the IS250 can throw at it, and is spec'ed for it.
That being said, there is a TSB (just recently released, in Canada anyways) to replace the clutch disc in the IS with a sprung disc, and also replaces the entire transmission assembly as well, to fix the strange sounds some people have reported. I have not had this done yet, even though I have had the on-engagement sound happen briefly twice.
Honestly the clutch setup is not atypical, and is used in many cars without too much trouble. It's a bit noisier, but it works well (as in the V160 setup in the Supra, the R154 also uses a similar setup, albeit without a dual-mass flywheel).
One of the biggest criticisms of the RA62 in the 2IS is the shifter feel, which is apparently less direct than people want in a car like the IS, getting the F-Sport Quickshifter tightens this up. The heavy flywheel and off-idle rev-up is another quirk, but something you should get used to. The throttle response curve combined with the heavy flywheel means that you need a bit more gas to take-off than some other cars, I think many people compensate too much and end up slipping the clutch more than they need to. This of course can cause premature wear.
Most actual failures I've seen have been related to synchros going out, this is something I have seen of many transmissions across the board for something people complain about online. Most people online are either enthusiasts or people who have a problem. Due to the low sales of 6MT models, you don't see many people and the really vocal ones are the people with problems. Not to belittle their issues of course, and I know that people have had synchro issues with the Aisin tranny in other cars (Camaros and X-Runners), but it's just the way it is for people posting online. Percentage-wise the people posting online are fewer than they seem.
That being said, the synchros were designed with low forces in mind due to the "tailset" design of the transmission. I think they were likely spec'ed too light for the applications, and Aisin did change them in mid-2006 to a new material to help with this, as I think they were seeing more wear on them than they initially predicted. The fluid spec was also changed as a result of the synchro material change. I believe people have had issues with the newer design synchros as well, though I'd hope at least it would be less than with the older design.
I have had very few issues with the RA62 in my IS250, it's working very well for me. I do plan on getting the F-Sport Quickshifter for it, we'll see what that does for me. After getting used to how to take-off, driving the car with the 6MT has been a real delight, with the sport pedals and pedal position, I find heel-toe shifting to be an easy maneuver.
I was more than aware of all of the design issues and other problems people claimed to have with the setup, and did my research and have found it to be exactly what I was expecting. I have no regrets.
To the original poster: It sounds like your clutch issues are a result of the Spec clutch, since you say you started having problems after putting it in. I'd be concerned with the installation and/or the clutch itself, and not the Lexus parts. I understand you may have had other issues with the synchro on 6th, but your current issues are with the aftermarket parts you had installed, right?
Jeff
The Tacoma/FJ Cruiser version doesn't use a clutch anywhere near the design of the IS. The trucks use a large push-type clutch with a solid flywheel. The IS uses a pull-type clutch with a dual-mass LuK flywheel, just like the V160 in the Supra Twin-Turbo used. Obviously the Supra transmission is a much stronger design and doesn't use the newer "tailset" design like the RA6x, but the clutch setup is much the same. The RA62 uses tapered roller bearings instead of ball-bearings, and there isn't much centre support for the main shafts, this is due to the torque flow path, and some people have suggested this is in fact a weak design. While it is not necessarily considered as strong, the design puts less stress on the parts and spins them faster. I have not seen any people with any sort of bearing and/or power-related transmission failure, it seems that synchros have been the biggest issue. (See below). The transmission in the IS250 is used in much heavier cars than the IS with much more torque than the IS. It can take way more than the IS250 can throw at it, and is spec'ed for it.
That being said, there is a TSB (just recently released, in Canada anyways) to replace the clutch disc in the IS with a sprung disc, and also replaces the entire transmission assembly as well, to fix the strange sounds some people have reported. I have not had this done yet, even though I have had the on-engagement sound happen briefly twice.
Honestly the clutch setup is not atypical, and is used in many cars without too much trouble. It's a bit noisier, but it works well (as in the V160 setup in the Supra, the R154 also uses a similar setup, albeit without a dual-mass flywheel).
One of the biggest criticisms of the RA62 in the 2IS is the shifter feel, which is apparently less direct than people want in a car like the IS, getting the F-Sport Quickshifter tightens this up. The heavy flywheel and off-idle rev-up is another quirk, but something you should get used to. The throttle response curve combined with the heavy flywheel means that you need a bit more gas to take-off than some other cars, I think many people compensate too much and end up slipping the clutch more than they need to. This of course can cause premature wear.
Most actual failures I've seen have been related to synchros going out, this is something I have seen of many transmissions across the board for something people complain about online. Most people online are either enthusiasts or people who have a problem. Due to the low sales of 6MT models, you don't see many people and the really vocal ones are the people with problems. Not to belittle their issues of course, and I know that people have had synchro issues with the Aisin tranny in other cars (Camaros and X-Runners), but it's just the way it is for people posting online. Percentage-wise the people posting online are fewer than they seem.
That being said, the synchros were designed with low forces in mind due to the "tailset" design of the transmission. I think they were likely spec'ed too light for the applications, and Aisin did change them in mid-2006 to a new material to help with this, as I think they were seeing more wear on them than they initially predicted. The fluid spec was also changed as a result of the synchro material change. I believe people have had issues with the newer design synchros as well, though I'd hope at least it would be less than with the older design.
I have had very few issues with the RA62 in my IS250, it's working very well for me. I do plan on getting the F-Sport Quickshifter for it, we'll see what that does for me. After getting used to how to take-off, driving the car with the 6MT has been a real delight, with the sport pedals and pedal position, I find heel-toe shifting to be an easy maneuver.
I was more than aware of all of the design issues and other problems people claimed to have with the setup, and did my research and have found it to be exactly what I was expecting. I have no regrets.
To the original poster: It sounds like your clutch issues are a result of the Spec clutch, since you say you started having problems after putting it in. I'd be concerned with the installation and/or the clutch itself, and not the Lexus parts. I understand you may have had other issues with the synchro on 6th, but your current issues are with the aftermarket parts you had installed, right?
Jeff
Last edited by Jeff Lange; 10-29-11 at 03:26 PM.
10-30-11, 06:31 AM
#6
Pit Crew
Thread Starter
To the original poster: It sounds like your clutch issues are a result of the Spec clutch, since you say you started having problems after putting it in. I'd be concerned with the installation and/or the clutch itself, and not the Lexus parts. I understand you may have had other issues with the synchro on 6th, but your current issues are with the aftermarket parts you had installed, right?
Jeff
i plan on going back to the stock clutch once i am sure this one is dead. i just hope this goes away once i do. great write up i appreciate the input.
10-30-11, 02:00 PM
#7
I wouldn't blame the is250 mt. it's clearly your after-market clutch causing your problems.
Get an OEM clutch, and make sure you push the clutch all the way down to the floor so that you don't wear out your transmission and synchros.
Get an OEM clutch, and make sure you push the clutch all the way down to the floor so that you don't wear out your transmission and synchros.
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10-31-11, 02:00 AM
#8
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Thread Starter
clutch is always depressed fully when I drive it. But with this spec clutch it almost seems like something is mounted loose because it inconsistently sticks in 1st when coming to a stop, usually in stop an go traffic. What would that be that needs to be tightened/re-seated?
04-07-13, 04:11 AM
#10
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clutch is always depressed fully when I drive it. But with this spec clutch it almost seems like something is mounted loose because it inconsistently sticks in 1st when coming to a stop, usually in stop an go traffic. What would that be that needs to be tightened/re-seated?
Leaving the house for work the other day, I couldn't get the car into any gear. And again 2 days later when I was leaving work, the same thing happened...couldn't get into any gear.
With the clutch all the way in, and foot on the break, it would either grind reverse or try to move forward against the brake. I figured I'd release the brake and keep the clutch all the way in and try for first...had to force it, but it went into gear as I started rolling forward like the clutch was engaged.
Once I've been driving it for a few minutes...all seems to correct itself and be fine.
What did you ever determine with your issue? Did you ever return to an OEM clutch or the F-Sport clutch? I'm considering giving the F-Sport clutch a try.
Thanks!
02-21-16, 11:08 AM
#11
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when installing spec clutches or most aftermarket clutch you have to adjust the pedal travel to ensure proper engagement and disengagement, you can't just install and drive, thats why its hard to get it in first gear and harsh engagement
02-21-16, 11:34 AM
#12
Get the factory clutch put back in. The IS 6sp manual was never a very nice setup but it is what it is and you likely won't improve on it. I had driven manuals all my life but after driving the IS 6sp, ended up getting the automatic (my first in 57 years)!
02-24-16, 06:40 PM
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I couldn't agree more with the header of this post, after rebuilding my internals of my gearbox with a holden gearbox its lasted all of about 4 months and died , after which i got a second hand gearbox which was not much better after a couple months, 3rd to 4th synchro died and became a box of marbles
People can say oh its ya driving and your riding the clutch and and you rest ya hand on the gear stick while driving along and you use the wrong oil blah blah blah, none of this I actually do,these are the worst design i have ever seen-massive gearbox full of weak internals coupled with the terrible DMF and clutch what the hell were toyota thinking
Soooo disappointed,I should have kept my old LS400
As luck would have it I was doing some spirited driving and happened onto some unmarked roadworks (at night) no amount of traction control or abs was going to stop a 160km/hr slide into a nice big culvert, car looked ok and no obvious damage until the insurance assessor put the car on the hoist and straight off the bat you could see some glorious chassis damage
suffice to say they wrote the car off and i have seen a nice IS350 down the road as the insurance company wants to replace the car -this is350 happends to be a little cheaper than what my is250 was insured for- im not complaining
see you later big bag of 6mt *****
People can say oh its ya driving and your riding the clutch and and you rest ya hand on the gear stick while driving along and you use the wrong oil blah blah blah, none of this I actually do,these are the worst design i have ever seen-massive gearbox full of weak internals coupled with the terrible DMF and clutch what the hell were toyota thinking
Soooo disappointed,I should have kept my old LS400
As luck would have it I was doing some spirited driving and happened onto some unmarked roadworks (at night) no amount of traction control or abs was going to stop a 160km/hr slide into a nice big culvert, car looked ok and no obvious damage until the insurance assessor put the car on the hoist and straight off the bat you could see some glorious chassis damage
suffice to say they wrote the car off and i have seen a nice IS350 down the road as the insurance company wants to replace the car -this is350 happends to be a little cheaper than what my is250 was insured for- im not complaining
see you later big bag of 6mt *****
Last edited by Bigpapatoe; 02-24-16 at 06:44 PM.
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