I don't have time to read through audio enthusiast forums to quote you specifics.

But here's the thing: as I said a post ago, you're not understanding it in a realistic way.

It's not about "what can you get for $752 that beats ML?" The answer to that is "nothing." But it's also the wrong question to be asking. You should be asking "what can you get for $752 EXTRA, after being credited for the original equipment ALREADY FOUND in the stock system?" Because that's what ML is... an upgrade, not a complete replacement. It's not $752 for an entire 15-speaker system, are you kidding me? It's $752 for the pieces that make it better than stock. And I guarantee that you can find similar pieces for way, way cheaper without taking more than a half hour to search the internet.

 

And in case I'm still not being clear, here's a simplistic formula:


Stock system = X

ML = Y

Aftermarket equipment that is equivalent in sound, quality, etc, to ML = Z


Having the ML option in your IS is X + Y

Y costs $752

X costs $0

thus,

X + Y = $752


The point is that you can have the following:

X + Z

for less than $752.

 

And one final thing...


Seriously? To each his own. No ill feelings toward anyone who has ML.

 

SO how much credit can you get out of the stock sysem? Because lexus wont give you that money back.

 

I guess the arguments could go on and on about whether or not ML+Nav is worth the extra cost. If I were to think rationally about each of the options/upgrades on my car, I'd probably conclude that most are not worth the cost. But, as with a lot of things in life, we're willing to pay more to get something that's a little better. My previous car was a Honda Accord that cost almost 20k less than my Lexus. Dollar for dollar, my Accord was a better value. But I enjoy my new Lexus with the stronger engine, better handling, refinement, gadgets, etc.

You're correct that the selection of DVD-A albums is rather limited. But, I'm probably a little different than most on this board in that I enjoy classical music and there are several DVD-A albums available. I don't have an expert ear, but I definitely hear a difference with DVD-A because of the multi-channel sound and the greater dynamic range--the dynamic range is very noticeable with classical music. Even if you're not a classical music fan, I'd recommend Andrea Bocelli on DVD-A.

 

Which album are you talking about...Verdi?

 

The ML system (upgrade whatever) is worth every penny more. I had a loaner, for several days, with the standard system and at first I thought it sounded almost as good as the ML. But after several hours and listening to my favorite songs (at higher volumes) I found myself missing my ML. Then when I got my car back (and listening to it again) it made me realize how much better the ML really is. Sorry night and day difference!

Koz

 

Nobody is talking about building a system from scratch for $752 that will sound better than ML. The fact is, the car comes standard with an audio system and there is no delete option. Forget about getting your money back on the standard system because it's not going to happen. The question is and ALWAYS has been; Can the standard system be improved upon to a level that is superior to ML for $742.00? The answer is no.

IOW, is the ML system worth it? The answer is yes!

 

That'd be great if you somehow -could- get a huge credit for skipping the stock stereo.

You can't though.

So back here in the actual real world you can't do better than the ML system for $752.

Nothing even close you can do for that price.

If you can find stuff for less than $752, as you've just claimed yet again in the post above, please post it. Because you can't.

It might help if you were aware that the speakers (all 14 of them) are different in the ML system from stock, so you'll be needing to replace -all- of them, plus the amp, dsp, etc... Don't forget your price must include install -and- at least 4 yrears of warranty.

Good luck.

 

Uh, that's my point. lol.

You can't get a credit. So that's why the "show me a $752 secondary option" is a ridiculous argument. People are saying that you can't get 14, 15 speakers, etc, for $752, so the ML upgrade is worth every penny. But it's an inappropriately inflated claim, because NO ONE is getting a 15 speaker system for $752. They're only paying for the difference between the two.

Do you actually think I meant you could tell Lexus to credit you? If so, then maybe that's the disconnect, heh.

 

and the -difference- is well worth the $752. And you can't beat it in the aftermarket.

Whereas you repeatedly claimed you could.


So, again, please tell me how someone with a stock system can spend $752 and get a better system than the ML upgrade from Lexus, since you've mentioned 3 or 4 times it can be done so easily yet continually seem unable to prove it.

 

The above BTW would be yet another example where you explicitly said you can do better with your $752. Actually less than $752 according to you.

Prove it.

 

Okay, look... you're just not understanding how it works.


And I didn't want to go do all this research, but whatever... here:


First off, to measure whether the value of the ML upgrade is a bargain in terms of monetary value, one must first calculate the worth of the stock system. Next, one must calculate the value of the ML system. And finally, one must subtract the value of the stock system from the value of the ML system. If that number is greater than the cost of the ML upgrade, which I guess is $752, then the ML is indeed a bargain.

I do not know how much the stock system is technically worth. But okay, so, there are what, 13 speakers, including a main subwoofer? The stock system is, I believe close to 200 total watts of power. The stock system has two woofers, one in each rear door, that are absent in the ML system.

And the ML system is 14 speakers, including a main subwoofer, right? The ML system is close to 300 total watts of power. And while the ML system does not have a third woofer speaker in each of the rear doors like stock system, it does have channel speakers, one in the front and two on the back deck. This is what makes the "surround sound." It has nothing to do with the type of speakers, but rather the placement of them.

So what exactly are you paying for?

If you opt to get the ML option, you end up paying for a few things:

-One additional center channel speaker
-Two rear deck speakers, BUT, at a loss of the two woofer speakers that are found in the stock system's rear doors
-100 watts of total additional power
-Installation(done at the factory, technically free to you)
-4 year warranty(again, technically free to you since it's part of the car as a whole)

And that's it.

You're not getting a DVD changer, as a few people have claimed in this thread. For that, you need to have the NAV package, which is an additional $3,000. So you're stuck with the exact same CD changer that the stock steup has.

Okay, so how is the worth calculated?

Well, let's first look at what you're paying for when you get the ML upgrade.



-One additional 2.6" center speaker, 25watts

Based on a quick check on an audio enthousiast forum, here is a Pioneer TS-CX7, with more than twice the power of the ML center channel speaker, for $74:

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...r+TS-CX7.html#


-Two rear deck 2.6" speakers, 25watts each

Here's a pair of ones I found people recommending, $54:

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...TR350-CXi.html


-100 watts of total additional power

You can't technically buy watts, obviously. So the way you figure out the value of this is by approximating the value of the stock speakers, then approximate the value of ML's speakers, and then go from there.

The stock IS system has four 1" tweeters, 25watts each. The ML system also has four 1" tweeters, but at only 20watts each. So the power of the tweeters is actually LESS than the stock system. So by adding the ML upgrade, you pay for less power in the tweeters(will be made up elsewhere, though). But, just to make things easier, let's GIVE the ML system's tweeters the extra power that the stock's tweeters have and call it even. Okay? This cancels it out from the total worth.

The stock IS system has four 2.6" midrange speakers, 21watts each. The ML system also has four midrange speakers, but they're each 25watts each, and two of the four(rear doors) are 4" instead of the 2.6".

Here is a pair of 4" Pioneers for $29:

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...TS-G1042R.html

So what do you think the stock ones, that are smaller and of less power, cost? Less than the 4", right? Well let's just say that the stock ones only cost $1, since I don't feel like trying to price them out. By saying they only cost $1, which is obviously a lot lower than what they truly cost, it makes the ML system seem more of a bargain, right? Well, we'll see...

And let's double the Pioneer midranges to make a total of four, even though the ML doesn't have four 4" midranges, but instead only has two 4" and two 2.6" midranges. It makes it easier to calculate, and, it actually gives adds more worth to the ML system that it actually has. But it doesn't matter, as I'll show later.

The stock IS system has the same size subwoofer(8") that the ML system has, except the ML's subwoofer has more power.

Here is a MUCH better subwoofer than even the ML system's, priced at only $54:

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...r+05CVR82.html

So, if that one is $54, then the stock system's worth should be less, correct? Well, let's go extreme again and say that the worth of the stock's subwoofer is only $1, which SHOULD benefit the contrasting worth of the ML's, right?

Let's add up what we have so far:

-Center speaker: $74
-Rear deck speakers: $54
-100 watts of extra power: $0 for the tweeters(the stock system actually has more powerful tweeters), $58($29 x 2) for the midranges, $54 for the subwoofer

=

$240

But what about warranty and installation, you might ask?

Warranty is relative to the place in which you buy your equipment. Yes, the 4-year Lexus warranty is big in terms of protecting stereo equipment. But a lot of manufacturer warranties cover defects for a year. And depending on where you buy your equipment, there might also be options to buy an extended warranty. More on this in a bit.

For installation, you could really just swap out all of those speakers yourself very easily. Even the stock system has a center channel cover that you simply remove, even though the system doesn't have a center channel speaker! But, understandably, a lot of people don't want to bother with it. No worries. There are TONS of car audio places that will charge $100 or less, with a guarantee, to swap out speakers. It's a very simple procedure.

So, let's add $100 for installation.

Now, for warranty, again, it's relative to where you buy your stuff. The links I provided above were found in less than 30 seconds via Google. But had I done more searching, I could have found even better sites, better prices, etc. Let's say you find a place that has an extended warranty for the speakers and installation for an exta $250.

So, let's add that $250, the $100 installation and the previous $240 total, which yields:

$590

Less than $752

BUT WAIT, there's more...

For you see, we only calculated the worth of REPLICATING the ML system. We we still need to do is calculate the WORTH of the ML system in relation to the stock system!

So,

If the ML subwoofer is worth around $60, then the stock sub is worth less. Correct? Well, by paying for the ML option, you're being asked to pay for the extra power of the ML's woofer, right? If the stock sub is worth about $40, and the ML is worth about $60, then you should be paying $20 more to enjoy the ML's sub.

But is that the case?

No.

You lose two woofers in the rear doors if you get the ML system. So that has to be taken out of the cost. So subtract about $60.

Also, If I redid all the numbers, and calculated ONLY what you'd be paying in ADDITION TO what you're already paying for the stock system(zero dollars), then the TRUE price ends up being only the DIFFERENCE between each componant's price, plus which ever componants are added(center and rear channels, minus what you lose(rear door woofers)! And that yields a total of only around $80!

So add that to an extended warranty from a car audio store, plus installation, and you're looking at about $500, including taxes.

But hey, i f you're buying all that extra equipment to replicate the ML system, what happens to all of the stock equipment? We're talking about nine speakers just laying around(13 minus the 4 tweeters that are actually better than the ML system)! Sell that stuff on ebay for maybe $100.

So now think of the final total as being:

$400.




So why is ML so expensive(and yes, for what you get, it is expensive)?

Two reasons, that I already stated in my first post:

-The Lexus name
-Peace of mind that comes from not having to shop for the parts individually, etc



Man, I'm tired with all this, lol.

I still go back to what I said, though: to each his own. The ML is a good system, no doubt. And props to everyone who has it. Just don't think you couldn't have had the same, if not better, for less.

 

^^^^^^ For goodness sake, give it up! All your 'analysis' isn't worth a damn for the simple reason you can't equate dollars spent with sound quality, or equate technical specs with how a system sounds. That's Audio 101. If you think you can spend the ML dollars privately and get equal, or better, sound than go ahead and do it. But stop the trolling.

 

Well, he asked. Repeatedly. lol. So I thought I'd show him the numbers.





For those of you who don't really want to read all of that, here's an overly simplistic version:



By paying for ML, you're paying for the difference in power and equipment pieces from the stock system. That price is determined by finding the value of the ML system, finding the value of the stock system, and subtracting the two. Then add an extended warranty and installation costs.

Simple as that.

And when you do, as most people on any car forum who have debated this will tell you, it's never worth it. It's always overpriced.

You think Lexus is paying out of pocket to give you a ML system? lol. They're in it for a profit. And by buying the ML system, clearly clearly they get it.