lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

It's a total crap mod from an engineering perspective. If you want to improve conductivity on your ground connections, put anti-seize on the threads of your ground point bolts. It will do more than any oversized wire could ever do.

The fundamental premise for getting better mileage is reduced number of misfires because you are providing a "better" ground for the engine block. This is total crap because your ECM measures misfires and reports problems if you exceed a mere 6%. No engine runs at 100%. It just doesn't happen even with the most exotic plasma injection ignition systems. Likelihood of ignition is a probability, not a guarantee, and the ground wires make no difference in this process unless they are corroded and have poor conductivity. This never happens on any new car, and only happens on older cars with poorly designed electrical systems, like the Honda Civic. Their grounding scheme is horrid from the examples I've seen, and it would not surprise me if changing the way its wired helps with those cars. Not Toyotas. Toyota's greatest strengths are engine quality and wiring quality. Their gearboxes are so-so at best, but the engines and wiring have no equals. That includes the grounding. You will not make a measurable improvement in the wiring in a Toyota unless you install a super high current draw sound system.

Anyway, there are a LOT of reasons why you may have observed better mileage. When I first tested acetone (1.25 oz/tankful of gas) I thought I measured more than 1 mpg, and broke 29 mpg for the first time in my Scion. It quickly disappeared, and my normal mileage reappeared despite the acetone. Did I drive a little differently when I first added the acetone? I don't think so, but real world results tell me I did.

Irishman06

I don't think its a "crap" engineering mod, its a "crap, why didn't i market that first! its totally useless, cheap, and people will buy it in droves!" engineering mod.

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

Well, you know there is another side to this. The power side.

New marketing campaign -

So you got the grounding kit, but you're sure there's more to be had. Well, there is! You really need to increase the wire diameter from the positive terminal as well. All the improvement you see on the ground side will be DOUBLED when you add our superwhamodyne POWER wiring kit.

And so on...

cspec

I actually had grounding systems installed on my old S2000 and my friends G35, and they found gains. Probably not on the 2IS, but there was a difference found on the other cars...

I mean, I don't come from an Engineering background at all, in fact I major in Actuarial Science, which has nothing to do with this, but... Comparing the sizes between the stock grounding wires, wouldn't it make more difference?

al503

Yeah. I've posted this before but there was a good thread on g35driver on this. Manufacturer v. skeptic. Both put their $ where their mouth's were with dynos, etc. The skeptic changed his mind and bought a set.

It depends. Most of the grounding kits use 4 gauge wire, which is total overkill on the electrical aspect but adds (arguably) to the underhood presentation.

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

Got a link to that thread? I'd like to see what convinced the guy. I'm not a skeptic. I've been working on electronics since '79 and mechanics since before that. There is no engineering "proof" that holds water unless the original scheme was faulty.

al503

The test procedures on the dyno were 'sound' IIRC, meaning same dyno same day, kit on, kit off, kit on, kit off, etc. It's been about 3-4 years but I think I can dig it up. Give me a few.

Evitzee

Me too. I AM A SKEPTIC, and originally from Missouri, the 'Show Me' state. I'd like to see what convinced someone as to the benefits of this sort of system.

al503

Looks like a lot of the info was lost when they switched over to v-bulletin. This is what I was able to find. Since I can't link to post on a different forum, I've cut and pasted here. I'll pm bux a link for the full thread.

The script in bold are mine.

Part of thread one:
03-18-2004, 10:33 PM
Gordgee

I just got back from doing a dyno tonight. Even with a problem with heat-soak due to running 6 runs back to back in less than an hour, and an initial dumped run because of a loose sensor wire, I got gains of 7 and 7 with GroundingGear™. They estimated about 3 or 4 more points gain if the engine was fresher! Should have waited more time between I guess. The owner was so impressed that they will be carrying GroundingGear™ and am inviting me to help tweak cars being tuned on the dynos, with GroundingGear™! He actually thought I got a 17 gain in one gear, but thought that it wasn't valid as it was being compared to another gear. Not sure how these things work myself, but when he told me about the 17 HP gain, needless to say I was shocked! He smiled at the look on my face. I'll live with 7 to 11 for now, but I'm thinking about going back for another run with the engine at normal operating temperature. I'll post pics and results soon.


BigmikeOC

Sorry i'm a noobie here but I've gotta to say this now, I don't believe for one minute that adding lower gauge wires or more ground wires to a stock engine is going to increase HP. If it did then why doesn't the factory ship them like this? The cost increase at the car manufacturing level would be minimal compared to a gain of 7 HP. Everybody was doing this same stuff in the WRX tuning world that I've just spent the last two years playing in and nobody proved reliable grounding mod results on a stock engine.

So I've got to question how those gains of 7 and 7 were measured? Did you do a baseline run without the GroundingGear to start with? Did you go back and take the GroundingGear off and do a run at the end to see what you'd get? In my opinon a variance of 7 on a 280 HP engine could be attributed to a lot of factors including the oil thining from repeated reving.


Msedanman

Sounds great Gord. Even with the normal variation between dyno runs, those gains are substantial and to my mind prove the value of Grounding.
Thanks for posting and let us know of any more developements.


zimbo

Tell you what. I'll send you enough PayPal funds to pay for another dyno session, Gordo on one condition: You do the first (and only the first) pull with the grounding kit on and do all subsequent pulls with it off. If the HP numbers after the first run are all less than the one with the grounding kit, you keep the money. Otherwise, you refund it.

Deal?

--Steve

Zimbo did a lot of dyno runs as he was the first g35 sedan owner to supercharge his ride. He knew that the VQ in the z/g's always posted higher numbers in the latter runs (usually the 5 or 6th run) so he was definitely trying to skew the results in his favor.

Gordgee

Steve:

It's a deal! Tell me how many runs with and with-out (more runs, more money), and the order you'd like them done. I'll send you a copy of the data. Let me know so I can price out the runs. I don't take pay-pal, but if you want to do it by money order or cashier's cheque, I'll take you up on it.[img]/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/img]

That way I can do the pulls with my Pop-Charger removed and the stock air-box with K&N back in to see how it compares with the runs already done with the Pop-Charger. That way the dyno results would be useful to everyone and we could all thank-you for the info. I'll have the dyno guys interperect the results if they are willing and also state how the runs were done. (No, I didn't reset the ECU when reattaching the GroundingGear™).

Part of thread 2:
#2 04-20-2004, 04:18 AM
zimbo


Ok, since that other thread was removed, I'll post my picture here. As I promised gordgee I would do (if you missed my challenge in a previous thread well that's too bad), here is the GroundingGear on my supercharged G35 sedan:

The link to the dynos in the first thread as well as zimbo's pic are no longer good. I'll pm Gord over there and see if he still has them.

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, unfortunately the details got lost with the crash. From what I read, it sounds like Nissan didn't do a very good job designing the electrical system from the factory. The Civics I've worked on had similar issues. Daisy chained grounding that only an accountant could love. It seemed miraculous the cars didn't suffer severe ground loop issues.

I haven't seen these issues on Toyotas. I've never seen a properly constructed test show any measurable improvement on any of the Toyotas I've owned.

The difference in wire is milliohms. 4 gauge wire will support a huge current load, but so will 8 gauge and even 10 gauge. Ignition coils with igniter circuits have an internal resistance of 0.54 - 0.84 ohms cold. At 0.54 ohms, you see a peak current of 26 amps, but the igniter is designed to limit the current so the coil only charges long enough to spark on the next cycle. Once the engine is up to temperature, resistance increases to 0.68 ohms minimum so maximum current drops. An 18 gauge wire is plenty for an application this small.

If you look at the specs on how all this works, it's pretty simple. But claiming better ignition (or better fuel injector control) because the wiring has changed could only be the result of a poorly designed system from the factory.

al503

You're right about the bean counters. With the price of copper going through the roof, I think we'll be seeing cuts here and there from the manufacturers. The stock ground wires were tiny on the G. I think they couldn't be more than 30 gauge. There's probably just a few cents difference between that and say a 20 gauge wire but when you consider how many feet of copper wiring is in a car x several hundred thousand cars, it's no wonder why they use such thin stock wiring.

FWIW, I had an early '03 G35 sedan with auto. I put ground wires in it and did notice a difference in smoothness and idle. Placebo? Possibly. When I took the kit out to put it in my '04 G35 coupe MT, my g/f noticed that (the sedan) wasn't as smooth. She doesn't know what a grounding kit is, whether I put it in, and that I had taken it out so the placebo effect didn't apply to her.

On a counter note, when I put the kit in the coupe, I didn't notice a difference in idle and of course, I obviously couldn't compare the shifts.

I don't have enough experience with toyota/lexus but I may make a kit and see if it makes any difference when I get some spare time.

mrfresh

I have an 06 is250 .... nearly 9 years old... think it's about time to re do the ground wiring?

Sffd103

iTrader: (16)

I had one in mine (06') but more for looks. I don't think you need it at all on your 06'

GSteg

iTrader: (15)

9 years is nothing and I highly doubt your grounds are bad. If there is corrosion on the wires (usually it's just the exposed end), take a wire brush and clean it off. There is really no need to 'upgrade'.