azipod

Hey guys... Did a search already but didn't really find an exact answer.

We all know that Sport/Sport+ results in faster shifts and a more aggressive throttle response. But does Sport + increase this further over Sport or is it exactly the same?

During a drive last evening, I could have swore that SPORT + felt more powerful.... but of course that's subjective and I can't confirm if it's true.

ChronoR

There is no power difference. In fact, even in Eco, it should be the same if you floor it.

bclexus

Same throttle (fuel mapping/ignition) response and transmission shifting characteristics in both the Sport and Sport+ modes. The Sport+ mode tweaks to tighten up the struts and the steering. Look at the right side of the 12.3" display when you change modes and it will highlight what has changed in the two Sport modes.

Duck101

Sport is a quicker throttle mapping.
Sport+ is same quicker throttle mapping, firmer suspension and heavier steering.

Quicker throttle mapping means you don't need to press the throttle as far down to take off quickly.

If you try to dent the firewall by mashing the throttle to the floor (100%) it will accelerate (standing start or rolling) the same in Eco, Normal, Sport or Sport+.

ADVocate

That's definitely not the case. There is a big difference between the modes. In Eco and Normal it's a standard Throttle body fuel injection, in the "S" modes it does that AND adds Direct Port fuel injection. More fuel, more power. It also changes the amount of current delivered to the electric assist motor from 500 volts to 650 volts (still only uses flywheel, and not the differential motor). If you don't feel a difference, there is something wrong with your car.

If you want to entertain yourself: http://pressroom.lexus.com/releases/...ury+hybrid.htm

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Vehicle Details
Engine/Transmission/Drivetrain/Performance

• Certified as a Super-Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle (SULEV) which has lower emissions than clean diesels.
• The system’s regenerative braking operation range has been expanded, contributing to further improvements over the previous generation in fuel efficiency.
• Improved fuel consumption over the previous generation is achieved through a high compression ratio of 13:1, a new mid-port intake tumble generator and the adoption of a Lexus D-4S fuel injection technology. With one injector installed in the combustion chamber and a second mounted in the intake port, D-4S combines the strengths of both direct and port injection for maximum efficiency and lowest emissions.
• The PCU boosts motor drive voltage to a maximum 650V in Sport mode and limits it to a maximum of 500V in ECO mode under normal driving conditions.

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ChronoR

There's Direct Injection and there's Port Injection. Both are used regardless of mode, but how much of each is rather controlled by engine load. Saying "add Direct Port fuel injection" is a meaningless phrase especially paired with the claim that the Normal mode uses only "standard Throttle body fuel injection".

As for the voltage limitations, it says it right there:
Decidedly not the same thing as flooring it which is the specific scenario I mentioned.

Im2bz2p345

I agree with ChronoR. There must be a ECU override to give full power if you go WOT, regardless of which mode you're in. I would want the car to behave this way - i.e. you're trying to do a quick maneuver to avoid something or need the power to overtake, I would not want to be thinking about which mode I'm in. You can test this out by making sure battery levels are about same and then fully pushing the throttle in both ECO and Sport/Sport+ mode.. you shouldn't be able to tell a difference.

The OP was asking about differences between Sport and Sport+ though, so I digress.

~ Im2bz2p345

signdetres

Haven't driven the GS 450h but spent a good week doing a lot of driving in an RX 450h loaner and it felt like a very clear difference between Eco and Sport under full throttle. Sport felt like you got a little bit more assist from the electric motors compared to Eco. Full throttle in Eco didn't surge forward like Sport did. Seems like ADVocate's post confirms this if the GS and RX have similar drivetrains.

ChronoR

I've actually timed my 0-60's in my GS450h. Sport+ seems to jump quicker but the hard numbers show similar times. If there's a difference it's smaller than the measurement uncertainty.

ADVocate

You can have that opinion, I don't care. As I understand it, there are the two fuel delivery methods that are available to the vehicle. A computer governs the use of those systems, which is modified by a user selectable switch. To say that they are both continually used at the same time has not been proven, with any citation from you, since they are independent of each other. It may be erroneous on my part to state my understanding of how it works, since that is how it was explained to me when I asked that question at time of delivery. I think your fuel usage would demonstrate on it's own, if you leave it in the Sport mode and do your typical driving.

Than you cite the detail "limits to 500V in Eco mode under normal driving conditions". My citation was demonstrating the difference between "Eco" and "Sport". The higher 650V delivery would certainly boost the electrical motor input current (E=I/R) during Sport mode. Not sure what your citation was referring to.

I included the link to the Press Releases for the vehicle. I thought someone could read that and come away with their own conclusions of what was written. Don't take my word for it.

As for the "off the line boost", I don't have anything to point to in written context for that conclusion. All I can say is, I notice the difference on my car.

ChronoR

Did you time your runs? If not, then put up. I used the actual vehicle and got hard empirical evidence. You seem to own the vehicle too so go out there and do at least a dozen runs (try to get the charge level close the same level between runs too!).

Citing PRESS RELEASES is not useful because they're often wrong, misleading or both. The Lexus D4S system (the name of the port and direct injection system) has many technical articles available online without the disinformation of press releases. I specifically mentioned the full-throttle scenario and no other because I am able to distinguish fine details (which your comments about fuel usage during regular driving demonstrates you didn't notice).

To tell the truth, I knew about the 650V vs 500V in the press releases even before I bought the vehicle (I did thorough research to ensure it's the car I wanted). And when it was first posited by someone in ClubLexus that full throttle causes the GS450h to go maximum power regardless of mode, it seemed doubtful to me too. So I tested it. Not with my butt dyno, but with a stop-watch and then later again with an OBD reader. The numbers convinced me that the difference, if they existed, was too small to be easily measured.



As a sidenote, our electric motors are 200HP units but the output is apparently limited to about 47HP because of the slower discharging NiMH battery pack (I'll see if I can find the citation because it seems unbelievable to me again even though I recall it being unbelievable too when I first saw it). 500V vs 650V seems like it's cutting small enough chunk of power that it seems reasonable to me that it would barely be measurable. So this feature can remain true even while my claim that the measured acceleration times aren't measurably different is also true.

azipod

So it's 500V in ECO mode. The system lets it increase to 650V in sport mode. But how about NORMAL mode?

ChronoR

Even if it does that it really doesn't matter since you're only varying the 47HP 52HP/39kW (I've also seen 41kW listed) output of the battery pack.

The difference either way is less than 10HP

ADVocate

I concede. My time is more valuable to me than doing trial runs. Perhaps the press releases are misleading, I will leave it at that. I did not know about the motor potential, thanks for that info.
I enjoy the car, which is fine in itself. I notice the throttle difference between the Eco/Normal and the Sport modes. The details I will leave to you guys.

Tom450

I also noticed the response between normal and S mode but always attributed it to the transmission being in a more responsive gear ratio.