2013 Lexus GS 450h...29 city/34 highway=31 combined?
11-23-11, 03:34 PM
#17
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11-23-11, 03:57 PM
#18
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11-23-11, 04:41 PM
#19
I think this is a great achievement for Lexus. A huge luxo sedan getting damn near as good mpgs as a subcompact econobox. Not only is it extremely fuel efficient but its faster than most cars on the road too. 
And the M35h is pretty s)hitty looking at Motortrends long term update.
And the M35h is pretty s)hitty looking at Motortrends long term update.
11-23-11, 05:12 PM
#20
It will not be a great accomplishment until Hybrids actually become cost efficient. Right now, damn near none of them has a return on investment of less than about 75,000 miles or so. If you have to spend $4000 to save $3000 it's not an achievement at all, it's simply a statement to everyone that you are "saving the planet".
Hybrids do hold their value better so you will get a lot of that $4k back when selling the car.
It is pretty much the same as diesels in Europe - $3k more expensive, takes 3-4 years to pay off - but also much higher resale price, which means everything you save in fuel is yours to keep.
11-23-11, 05:21 PM
#21
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It will not be a great accomplishment until Hybrids actually become cost efficient. Right now, damn near none of them has a return on investment of less than about 75,000 miles or so. If you have to spend $4000 to save $3000 it's not an achievement at all, it's simply a statement to everyone that you are "saving the planet".
My current GS 450h at the time was faster or as fast as most V-8s will getting 40% better gas mileage. Its quieter and rarer and is one of the most technologically advanced cars in the world.
The MPG benefit is just icing on the cake. I don't keep a calculator thinking "omg I needz to drive more to make up the cost".
The fact of the matter is, we now have a GS 450h which drives as good as any sporty sedan which has all the luxury of a LS with the interior features and options few can match and now it gets 31 MPG AVERAGE.
That is called having your cake and eating it too.
Then if we do use that line of thinking, it will then need to be applied to anything.
1. Is that ZR1 really worth more than a base Vette if you only drive it 30 times a year.
2. Is that V-8 really worth it over the V-6 if you only floor it 20 times a year.
3. Is that GT3 really worth it over a 911 if you don't track the car.
etc etc
We can do a cost/benefit analysis on all of it.
That is luxury. You can have the best of both worlds.
The fact of the matter is we now have a luxury sedan that gets an amazing 31 MPG AVERAGE not HIGHWAY. This thing gets AVERAGE what a measly 4 cylinder TSX gets on the highway for example while being much more luxurious, faster, sportier with more technology.
That is truly advanced.
Sadly this thread has hardly any views as people rather ***** about fog lights or find things to pick on. Sorry but 31 MPG AVERAGE in a luxury sedan of this stature and performance is mind-blowing.
11-23-11, 05:22 PM
#22
thats not really correct - you need to also look at servicing costs as well as used value when car is sold.
Hybrids do hold their value better so you will get a lot of that $4k back when selling the car.
It is pretty much the same as diesels in Europe - $3k more expensive, takes 3-4 years to pay off - but also much higher resale price, which means everything you save in fuel is yours to keep.
Hybrids do hold their value better so you will get a lot of that $4k back when selling the car.
It is pretty much the same as diesels in Europe - $3k more expensive, takes 3-4 years to pay off - but also much higher resale price, which means everything you save in fuel is yours to keep.
Not just that. You have to look at the cool factors in the hybrid, the instant response, as well as the rare factors....
11-23-11, 07:08 PM
#23
thats not really correct - you need to also look at servicing costs as well as used value when car is sold.
Hybrids do hold their value better so you will get a lot of that $4k back when selling the car.
It is pretty much the same as diesels in Europe - $3k more expensive, takes 3-4 years to pay off - but also much higher resale price, which means everything you save in fuel is yours to keep.
Hybrids do hold their value better so you will get a lot of that $4k back when selling the car.
It is pretty much the same as diesels in Europe - $3k more expensive, takes 3-4 years to pay off - but also much higher resale price, which means everything you save in fuel is yours to keep.
Thats only if you have the mind of thinking that a hybrid is only for gas savings. Its usually used by people that don't like or understand hybrids.
My current GS 450h at the time was faster or as fast as most V-8s will getting 40% better gas mileage. Its quieter and rarer and is one of the most technologically advanced cars in the world.
The MPG benefit is just icing on the cake. I don't keep a calculator thinking "omg I needz to drive more to make up the cost".
The fact of the matter is, we now have a GS 450h which drives as good as any sporty sedan which has all the luxury of a LS with the interior features and options few can match and now it gets 31 MPG AVERAGE.
That is called having your cake and eating it too.
Then if we do use that line of thinking, it will then need to be applied to anything.
1. Is that ZR1 really worth more than a base Vette if you only drive it 30 times a year.
2. Is that V-8 really worth it over the V-6 if you only floor it 20 times a year.
3. Is that GT3 really worth it over a 911 if you don't track the car.
etc etc
We can do a cost/benefit analysis on all of it.
That is luxury. You can have the best of both worlds.
The fact of the matter is we now have a luxury sedan that gets an amazing 31 MPG AVERAGE not HIGHWAY. This thing gets AVERAGE what a measly 4 cylinder TSX gets on the highway for example while being much more luxurious, faster, sportier with more technology.
That is truly advanced.
Sadly this thread has hardly any views as people rather ***** about fog lights or find things to pick on. Sorry but 31 MPG AVERAGE in a luxury sedan of this stature and performance is mind-blowing.
My current GS 450h at the time was faster or as fast as most V-8s will getting 40% better gas mileage. Its quieter and rarer and is one of the most technologically advanced cars in the world.
The MPG benefit is just icing on the cake. I don't keep a calculator thinking "omg I needz to drive more to make up the cost".
The fact of the matter is, we now have a GS 450h which drives as good as any sporty sedan which has all the luxury of a LS with the interior features and options few can match and now it gets 31 MPG AVERAGE.
That is called having your cake and eating it too.
Then if we do use that line of thinking, it will then need to be applied to anything.
1. Is that ZR1 really worth more than a base Vette if you only drive it 30 times a year.
2. Is that V-8 really worth it over the V-6 if you only floor it 20 times a year.
3. Is that GT3 really worth it over a 911 if you don't track the car.
etc etc
We can do a cost/benefit analysis on all of it.
That is luxury. You can have the best of both worlds.
The fact of the matter is we now have a luxury sedan that gets an amazing 31 MPG AVERAGE not HIGHWAY. This thing gets AVERAGE what a measly 4 cylinder TSX gets on the highway for example while being much more luxurious, faster, sportier with more technology.
That is truly advanced.
Sadly this thread has hardly any views as people rather ***** about fog lights or find things to pick on. Sorry but 31 MPG AVERAGE in a luxury sedan of this stature and performance is mind-blowing.
The other issue that has been a significant issue is added weight and much less trunk capacity. We'll see how they do on those counts. I think it's too early to call this a performance advantage. I'm not saying it won't be, I just think we need to see what all the factors are before we go out on that limb. And to a degree - the same can be said for my opinion - we don't know what it is going to cost either.
11-23-11, 08:52 PM
#24
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It will not be a great accomplishment until Hybrids actually become cost efficient. Right now, damn near none of them has a return on investment of less than about 75,000 miles or so. If you have to spend $4000 to save $3000 it's not an achievement at all, it's simply a statement to everyone that you are "saving the planet".
That is not a known yet. The only hybrid that has truly had any success in the U.S. is the Prius. In fact, it's very possible that resale value will not be so good if you keep the car out of warranty do to the unknowns of cost of the complex hybrid components.
Performance of the car is also an unkown. But the real point is that in most cars the hybrid is not the top performance version. Lexus could have offered a 380hp V8 from the LS a lot cheaper than the hybrid and the savings would more than likely offset the gas mileage difference.
The other issue that has been a significant issue is added weight and much less trunk capacity. We'll see how they do on those counts. I think it's too early to call this a performance advantage. I'm not saying it won't be, I just think we need to see what all the factors are before we go out on that limb. And to a degree - the same can be said for my opinion - we don't know what it is going to cost either.
Performance of the car is also an unkown. But the real point is that in most cars the hybrid is not the top performance version. Lexus could have offered a 380hp V8 from the LS a lot cheaper than the hybrid and the savings would more than likely offset the gas mileage difference.
The other issue that has been a significant issue is added weight and much less trunk capacity. We'll see how they do on those counts. I think it's too early to call this a performance advantage. I'm not saying it won't be, I just think we need to see what all the factors are before we go out on that limb. And to a degree - the same can be said for my opinion - we don't know what it is going to cost either.
Did you not see my examples? You can do the same analysis with anything. We can go even further
1. Should I pay for for a 4 door vs a 2 door though I only have passengers 20 times a year?
2. Should I pay more for semi-analine leather vs regular leather even though the owner can't tell the difference
3. Is the RL worth the money over the TL even though the TL is faster or just as good and the same size?
I own a GS 450h. I know the benefits and most of us did not buy the car just for the MPG benefits. I forgot that the car is a SULEV II emissions vehicle. . This new vehicle is rated at 31 MPG overall and 0-60 in mid 6s. How can anyone not be impressed with thi??. This is a 4100lbs car getting MPG on par with a 2500 bare bones econo car.
Weight? Its 4100lbs gets 31 MPG. Guess what other cars in the class weigh the same or more and get far worse MPG with traditional powerplants. Who cares about weight, its a luxury sport hybrid. Contrarily people are giving the GS 350 no credit for being lightest in class.
Its luxury. Having your cake and eating it too.
Lexus purposely positioned this GS 450h more toward economy instead of power. I agree with this method. I would prefer 31 MPG and still do 0-60 in mid 5s than get 25 MPG and do 0-60 in mid 4s. Lexus has figured out people want more MPG vs more performance with hybrids.
Looking at how other luxury marques have copied the GS 450h and how the next RL will be a hybrid, it seems Lexus is far ahead of the curve here.
I have no idea how anyone can complain or not be impressed with a full blown luxury sport sedan getting 31 MPG average, on par with econo car 4 cylinders while performing better than 90% of the cars sold today
11-23-11, 10:19 PM
#25
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11-24-11, 03:57 AM
#26
We are talking about numbers matching 30 years of Audi sales in the USA... probably more actually. So to say hybrids are unknown is to say that Audi is chinese brand that you never heard of :-)
11-24-11, 05:28 AM
#27
Great numbers for the GS. Don't know why the M35h is being put down though, it is still impressive considering its heavier and packs 22 more hp.
Last edited by venom21; 11-24-11 at 06:27 AM.
11-24-11, 05:32 AM
#28
You are picking and choosing your arguement and it holds no weight. You can make this arguement for ANY type of car/brand, not just hybrids.
Did you not see my examples? You can do the same analysis with anything. We can go even further
1. Should I pay for for a 4 door vs a 2 door though I only have passengers 20 times a year?
2. Should I pay more for semi-analine leather vs regular leather even though the owner can't tell the difference
3. Is the RL worth the money over the TL even though the TL is faster or just as good and the same size?
I own a GS 450h. I know the benefits and most of us did not buy the car just for the MPG benefits. I forgot that the car is a SULEV II emissions vehicle. . This new vehicle is rated at 31 MPG overall and 0-60 in mid 6s. How can anyone not be impressed with thi??. This is a 4100lbs car getting MPG on par with a 2500 bare bones econo car.
Weight? Its 4100lbs gets 31 MPG. Guess what other cars in the class weigh the same or more and get far worse MPG with traditional powerplants. Who cares about weight, its a luxury sport hybrid. Contrarily people are giving the GS 350 no credit for being lightest in class.
Its luxury. Having your cake and eating it too.
Lexus purposely positioned this GS 450h more toward economy instead of power. I agree with this method. I would prefer 31 MPG and still do 0-60 in mid 5s than get 25 MPG and do 0-60 in mid 4s. Lexus has figured out people want more MPG vs more performance with hybrids.
Looking at how other luxury marques have copied the GS 450h and how the next RL will be a hybrid, it seems Lexus is far ahead of the curve here.
I have no idea how anyone can complain or not be impressed with a full blown luxury sport sedan getting 31 MPG average, on par with econo car 4 cylinders while performing better than 90% of the cars sold today
Did you not see my examples? You can do the same analysis with anything. We can go even further
1. Should I pay for for a 4 door vs a 2 door though I only have passengers 20 times a year?
2. Should I pay more for semi-analine leather vs regular leather even though the owner can't tell the difference
3. Is the RL worth the money over the TL even though the TL is faster or just as good and the same size?
I own a GS 450h. I know the benefits and most of us did not buy the car just for the MPG benefits. I forgot that the car is a SULEV II emissions vehicle. . This new vehicle is rated at 31 MPG overall and 0-60 in mid 6s. How can anyone not be impressed with thi??. This is a 4100lbs car getting MPG on par with a 2500 bare bones econo car.
Weight? Its 4100lbs gets 31 MPG. Guess what other cars in the class weigh the same or more and get far worse MPG with traditional powerplants. Who cares about weight, its a luxury sport hybrid. Contrarily people are giving the GS 350 no credit for being lightest in class.
Its luxury. Having your cake and eating it too.
Lexus purposely positioned this GS 450h more toward economy instead of power. I agree with this method. I would prefer 31 MPG and still do 0-60 in mid 5s than get 25 MPG and do 0-60 in mid 4s. Lexus has figured out people want more MPG vs more performance with hybrids.
Looking at how other luxury marques have copied the GS 450h and how the next RL will be a hybrid, it seems Lexus is far ahead of the curve here.
I have no idea how anyone can complain or not be impressed with a full blown luxury sport sedan getting 31 MPG average, on par with econo car 4 cylinders while performing better than 90% of the cars sold today
Lexus has figured out people want more MPG vs more performance with hybrids.
You tried to make the statement earlier that its more than just economy, its performance, and now you are back tracking by saying that Lexus was not concerned about performance. BTW, I'm well aware of the performance difference between the 350 and the 450h, but that still doesn't make it a performance car, it simply makes it a little faster. And my point was that you can make it faster still for less money with a conventional non-hybrid power (such as the 380hp V8) . The numbers simply don't work for the hybrid based upon history.
Last edited by jjscsix; 11-24-11 at 05:51 AM.
11-24-11, 05:48 AM
#29
except thats not true... Lexus/Toyota have sold more than 3,100,000 hybrids so far, and residuals are holding well compared to their gas compatriots. there is nothing unknown about hybrid costs.
We are talking about numbers matching 30 years of Audi sales in the USA... probably more actually. So to say hybrids are unknown is to say that Audi is chinese brand that you never heard of :-)
We are talking about numbers matching 30 years of Audi sales in the USA... probably more actually. So to say hybrids are unknown is to say that Audi is chinese brand that you never heard of :-)
http://www.hybridcars.com/economics/...ely-28104.html
I found another link to a PDF file that I am not having any success downloading, but I'm sure you can find it. Showing sales by year through 2010, the Prius has outsold all other hybrids COMBINED every year.
The 30 years of Audi sales comparison means nothing. My point is that nobody really has a clear picture of repair costs and resale values in a 10 year or even less time frame. Those are very complex components, and because they are so specific to the limited market of hybrids, it's not like your local Auto Zone is going to have the modules, batteries etc sitting on the shelf for a seven or eight year old hybrid who's technology is already outdated.
I'd be lying if I didn't say ya'll bring up good points and interesting conversation - it's all good, as they say.
11-24-11, 08:22 AM
#30
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Just because you can make the same argument for any car does NOT mean you can't make the arguments for the Lexus Hybrid. I think my statements do hold water. You basically confirmed my opinion when you said That was exactly my point. The car is basically about fuel economy, but there is no economy to be gained when you spend more to buy the car than you save in fuel.
You tried to make the statement earlier that its more than just economy, its performance, and now you are back tracking by saying that Lexus was not concerned about performance. BTW, I'm well aware of the performance difference between the 350 and the 450h, but that still doesn't make it a performance car, it simply makes it a little faster. And my point was that you can make it faster still for less money with a conventional non-hybrid power (such as the 380hp V8) . The numbers simply don't work for the hybrid based upon history.
You tried to make the statement earlier that its more than just economy, its performance, and now you are back tracking by saying that Lexus was not concerned about performance. BTW, I'm well aware of the performance difference between the 350 and the 450h, but that still doesn't make it a performance car, it simply makes it a little faster. And my point was that you can make it faster still for less money with a conventional non-hybrid power (such as the 380hp V8) . The numbers simply don't work for the hybrid based upon history.
. Maybe I am not explaining myself clearly. Your philosophy/point (which many people have tried and most are just anti-hybirid) I don't agree with as you can apply the same methodology to anything and any two different engines. Not just hybrids. For example, again, why get a TL-SH AWD with 305 hp against the TL with 280hp if you don't speed, its marginally faster and you won't really push the car at the track or anywhere? So why not lets break down that difference?
Why get a BMW 760 V-12 vs the 750 V-8 if you only drive 4,000 miles a year, have 5 cars and rarely speed?
Trying to say "Oh a hybrid makes no sense b/c you have to drive X miles to get them money back" is simply a way to try to imply hybrids are only for MPG gains, have no other benefits and that is the only reason people buy them.
The numbers clearly work for the GS 450h otherwise, Audi, BMW, Benz, Infiniti etc would not have copied it. This new model really makes a better case than the GS 450h I own.
No other car this equipped, this size offers 31 MPG average. If it costs more and makes people feel good, just as a V-8 or a V-10 or turbo makes someone feel good, why pick on the hybrid?
Mind you I am not here to say the GS 450h is the greatest car in the world and hybrids are the only cars to buy. I am not your typical hybrid owner and my demographic(s) is completely different to most hybrid owners
I skew the numbers. 
That said I am beyond pleased with my GS 450h and for driving around town I see no reason not to buy a hybrid. To me the benefits are great and I don't care if it costs more. Its worth it. To me.