PhilipMSPT

iTrader: (5)

discuss...

01LEXPL

iTrader: (10)

I predict dead.

No one is going to want a corolla with a battery when you have a choice of a far more attractive mid-sized sedan, and a small hatch, on top of obvious RX & GS? choices [not sure if they axed the GS hybrid yet].

There's no love for this 'inbetweener' now with the CT & ES [& above]. In a class of its own - for good reason.

Trexus

The HSh will continue to be sold in the world market but eventually be phased out in the U.S. Lexus should keep the HSh and position it as an entry level luxury hybrid sedan and the ESh as a mid-sized level luxury hybrid sedan. The CTh is a luxury hybrid hatchback.

I know many hate the HSh but I've always appreciated the HSh for what it is and understand it for what it isn't. I almost bought one.

http://www.lexus.com/models/HSh/

http://www.lexus-global.com/models/HS.html

ntrainer

I totally agree with Trexus. If it were me, I'd reposition the HSh as the "entry level" luxury hybrid, which is exactly what it is, but given that the price difference between the HS and the ES is currently negligible, I don't think Lexus will go this way. I would guess that Lexus will charge an additional $2,000 - $5,000 for the hybrid engine (from the base ES price), which is unfortunate because it will make an ESh -- particularly an ESh with any options at all -- completely mid-level (not entry-level) in terms of price. Still, I would guess as many others have speculated elsewhere that the ESh spells the end of the HSh in the U.S. market.

Not to go on a rant, but to me the death of the HSh is yet another example of how ridiculously Americans behave when it comes to their cars. Apparently the HS sells well in pretty much every other market (and is one of Lexus' top performers in Japan), but Americans don't want this car because -- summarizing what I've read on these boards and elsewhere -- (1) it doesn't have as sporty a look as they'd like, and (2) it gets good mileage but not Prius mileage. This, despite the fact that THERE ARE NO OTHER ENTRY-LEVEL LUXURY HYBRID VEHICLES ON THE MARKET. So, in other words, potential HSh customers are either (a) defecting to Prius for its superior gas mileage (which I think is doubtful, since it's far from a luxury vehicle, and those with the coin will pay for a luxury vehicle), or (b) going with the better-looking cars, despite the fact that those cars get lousy gas mileage (more likely).

This is madness! Is anybody else out there paying any attention to gas prices?!? Polls show Americans care about this issue greatly, and yet when it comes time to buy a new car, it seems luxury buyers want to look cool much more than they want to save $$$. We are just so wasteful. Sigh.

And if Lexus charges what I think they'll charge for the ESh, it will entirely eliminate the true entry-level hybrid category from their fleet. This is what Infiniti did; they're only offering the hybrid option on the M (starts at $48K), and not the G (starts at $33K). So, in other words, what this seems to say about Americans is that, yes, we'll buy hybrid vehicles, but only if (a) they're the Toyota Prius, or (b) we're driving cars as big as BOATS and we're using the hybrid engine just to eke out a few extra mpgs so we don't feel so awful about it.

I can't be the only one who feels like the ES is roomier than one needs for a vehicle that isn't hauling 4 people around on a regular basis. Nice to have such huge back seat room, but not necessary unless this is your family of four's only car, IMO. The HS fits the bill much more efficiently in terms of room. But then again, it's apparently not cute enough.

Sigh.

01LEXPL

iTrader: (10)

cool rant, one problem. The CT is the entry level hybrid-only.
It will replace the HS, IMO.

40K for a corolla with batteries is retarded - no way around that. When the 4banger 2012 camry hybrid starts at 27k. Load it up with all the features and its still [at the end of the day] a bigger and similarly put together toyota product. Thus more reason for the smaller HS being completely irrelevant!

The ES is 42k new [current 2012 style], so they can't stray too far away from that pricing model, with the Hybrid.

*the above is canadian pricing as per lexus & toyota dot ca

dalton

Totally agree.. except I bought one. The size is perfect for me, is very comfortable in all seats within the cabin (ask my colleagues), is loaded with high-tech and I'm getting real-life 37mpg. The CT is way to small for anyone who tries to put a passenger in the back seat and is under-powered (in my opinion). So, upgrade the HS to 300h with 41 +/- mpg with 200hp, keep the size, improve the styling to broading the appeal and keep it in between the CTh and ESh.

I get you.. I just hope Lexus doesn't remove it from the American market.

Trexus

The CTh is entry level and is a hybrid-only but is not a sedan but a hatchback. It's much smaller than the HSh.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

HS will go the way of the dodo - at least here in the states. Sells well in Japan so we'll see I guess

DDS62

I am surprised to see posters under the assumption that the fate of the HS is still in question. I understand it has been relegated to the Japanese market for 2013 and thereafter. The European market does not exist. Last month Lexus sold 261 HS's - an increase of 100 over the previous month, which says that they can't stamp out the HS even when they try. It would seem that at least 261 people will seek out and demand a Corolla with a battery despite Lexus. Wonder how many HS300 they could sell if they carried them in stock, advertised them, put them on the showroom floor and into the brochures? Personally I think Lexus seems to be making strange decisions - like maybe the new Prius that is even smaller but with the same average gas mileage? And a slew of new car introductions that inspire nobody, obviously done to stop the bleeding. I will keep my HS because it is an up scale car that is thrifty, small enough to get around the city and seats 4 adults in comfort. But the main reason I will be keeping it is because it (my 2010) has lost almost 19G's as a trade in already. At this rate my only choice after 2014 will be to drive it or scrap it. My plan is to drive it until Lexus starts charging a fortune for service, then take the hit.

Trexus

Looking at the HSh's sales:

YTD 2009 6,699
YTD 2010 10,663
YTD 2011 2,863
Jan - Mar 2012 563

If one were to annualize 2012 sales of the HSh it would come out to about 2,252. It appears the HSh is slowing down in sales. If Lexus just did some minor tweaks to the styling, upgrade the hybrid engine and price it competitively I think Lexus could have a hit.

RJQMAN

If you could ever get the darn thing, it might sell a little better. I had to drive quite a distance to get mine. I bought two of them. My biggest complaint is that exactly what the earlier post said - I wish it was a bit more sporty. Other complaints - it could use a bit more interior storage for the things Americans like to carry around. The operation manual completely fills the glove compartment, so if you want to have it with you, you either don't have a glove compartment or you relegate it to the trunk. I wish the Navi screen was a bit wider too - like the newer Lexus models. But other than that, I think the car is years ahead of its time. But I only discovered that it existed by a stroke of luck - not because of Lexus advertising and promotion. And I love my two HS250H's.

noku

I don't believe that the ES300h could ever replace the HS250h. These are completely different types of cars with different purposes. Granted the ES hybrid will be bigger, have better MPG, smoother and quieter ride,etc., etc.. But in my experience the ES and the RX never had the type of handling nor suspension necessary to make going around a clover leaf faster than "grandpa" type speeds, without excessive body lean and poor road feel.

I like to make wide sweeping turns without having to slowdown/brake when coming off or going on the freeway. A much more exhilarating feeling for me than going 0-60 like a jack rabbit. I used to drag race at the strip in my younger years so not at all unaccustomed to high acceleration and would envy those formula one and nascar drivers in their rigs. Also, the condition of our roads, omg!! Like driving through a mine field. Believe me when I say its going to get worse before it gets better with government looking to save monies in every nook and cranny.

So other than a too small car like the CT or too low a MPG like the GS alas, my only hope to buy another Lexus would be a hybrid IS. So Lexus better get on the ball and make one or keep the HS around till they do. I don't need or want a big marshmallow to ride around in, unless it has tracks instead of wheels (loved driving those M114's).

TheAirman

Other than the Prius, Americans have failed to adopt the hybrid technology like the Japanese have. Hence the reason the Lincoln MKZ has sold almost two to one normally aspirated over the hybrid model, and they are the same price for either model. No hybrid from any manufacturer has sold in the numbers they had hoped, or in the numbers they sell in the Japanese market. The ES300h will sell no better. How many hybrids other than the Prius have you really seen?

My job allows me to visit other major cities, and in my travels, I've seen exactly 2 Sonta hybrids, 1 Escalde and 1 Tahoe hybrid, 3 Volts, 2 Leafs, 2 HS's and about 3 CT's. Ive seen no Infinity hybrids or even a LS hybrid.

In the same token, diesel technology has not caught on with Americans as it has with the Europeans. Ever go to the Audi dealer and ask about a full loaded A3 TDI? You can get one but it'll take a while. Ever been to Europe? Everyone drives a diesel.

What sells here? Power, speed and the "largest towing capacity in it's class". Have you seen the latest ad for the new redesigned Taurus? Ford does not portray the new Taurus as a safe, reliable, economical family sedan, because that does not sell. What they show is "Ma an Pa Kettle" in a open faced helmet in the new Taurus burning the rear tires off and drifting into corners sideways on a close course with the car driven by a NASCAR driver. Just like "iron fist" "Ram tough" 6.0 liter sells in the truck market.

If it wasn't for the marketing campaign for the CT, "the darker side of green", and they showed that cool red tachometer swinging into the red zone, the CT sales would have languished also.
Who would have bought it if they advertised it as just a puny, economical 1.8 liter Atkinson cycle engine assisted with a AC motor, as it is in reality.

It will take another energy crisis like the gas rationing of the 70's for Americans to make the change to economy as they did back then when we scraped our Chevy Caprice Classic wagons, and our Dodge Monaco wagons for VW bugs and those new odd cars from the Japanese such as the Datsun B210, and the new Toyota Corolla.

herbvdh

The line up is CT200h, HS250h, ES300h, GS450h, LS600hl I have seen plenty HS250h's in the NY City metro area. I have seen and spoke to the chauffeur of a LS600hl

DDS62

I have no idea how the CT can be priced so low, but I know that the hybrids are still significantly more costly to manufacture than an equivalent Otto cycle. Reading the comments here and elsewhere I get the impression that most may have forgotten that principle and are expecting the new ES hybrid to sell for no more than the gas version. I doubt that will happen and expect the ES hybrid to be priced near the GS entry making it not as desirable as everyone expects. I am also betting that the hybrid ES is not a big seller. I would like to congratulate the Lexus design team for raising the roof of the new ES, it is a full inch higher which will make entry exit noticeably better. Still no where as high as the HS, but for Lexus to even contemplate making a car that isn't shaped like a cigar is a step forward. We'll see about the popularity of the ES hybrid.