DDS62

I have become fascinated with the design of the hybrids. I believe all cars in the future will incorporate hybrid technology like in kind to the way A/C has been transformed into a standard option over the years. There are so many aspects of the technology that are not readily apparent. Like these:

1)The high operating temperature of the NiMH batteries used in the HS is by design. Toyota could use the cooling air to keep them cooler, but they are much more efficient at the high operating temperature.

2)Although the NiMH batteries have only about 60% of the storage capacity (by weight - about the same by volume) of the The Li-ion batteries they were chosen by Toyota because of their inherent safety and longevity. They have little or no propensity to catch fire like some type of Li-ion batteries and they last longer. The Li-ion batteries will primarily be used in the all electric EV autos where electrical storage consideration is king.

LexFather

I love the technology as well. Lexus hybrids are among the most technologically advanced cars ever made. I laugh when I see the Acura ads tauting "technology". Most don't even have a 6 speed transmission or even cooled seats.

What is amazing to me is how seamless it is. I still sometimes have to change my gauge to see if I'm using the engine or the batteries when driving around sometimes. Its just amazing how the car goes back and forth with no issues.

I have an 07 GS450h with a small 7cube trunk but the 2010 gained 30% and is 10 cubes. Not sure what they did but thats a great improvement.

The HS has a good size trunk. I think the battery technology in it is fine, it just is using an older 2.4 I-4 compared to the newer 2.5. I'm sure if it gained the newer engine it would maybe be a 38-40 MPG car.

DDS62

Here is another maybe little known considerations about battery longevity. Toyota warrants it's batteries for 8 years. The warranty is not pro rated, meaning that if the auto will not start because of the batteries, Toyota will replace them free. However that doesn't include efficiency considerations - the batteries may very well run down to a level where little or no mileage benefit is gained, but the car will still start and Toyota will do nothing (I think). Furthermore Lexus is quoting a very high replacement cost of between $5,000 - $5500 to replace the HS batteries. The batteries in the early model Prius', now about 7 - 10 years old, are indeed needing to be replaced and the dealerships are quoting costs of around $3,500. This should be a major consideration for all of us.

spwolf

batteries can be gotten from totaled vehicles for as low as $500.... So far, Prius batteries are proven to be extremely reliable.

you also save a lot of money on other servicing costs compared to conventional cars, like no belts, very long lasting brakes, etc.

spwolf

another thing to consider with li-on is that they need more cooling, so end result is same space taken as nimh, as witnessed by Sonata Hybrid which has same trunk as Camry Hybrid despite using what was supposed to be more space efficient li-po battery.

DDS62

Does everybody think that the Hybrid is a more valuable design than the all electric vehicle like I do? I keep hearing about the next wave of EV’s that will obsolete the Hybrid. That will never happen. The EV’s will dominate and replace gas vehicles in the future but only for environmental and political reasons. EV’s are not cheap to operate. When including the costs of the batteries, they are way (way) more expensive. And every new electric vehicle from this date on will incorporate a complete hybrid system anyway – because the energy recaptured is free. The operating cost of electricity for the EV’s is more than most realize. For instance the new 100 mile range Nissan Leaf EV will cost the owner about 50% of the costs of a Prius Hybrid for gas or about $3.50 for a recharge. And that 100 mile range will only be obtainable when the batteries are new, and when there is no need to use the heater or A/C. I won’t estimate what range could be expected out of the Leaf after 5 years and in the dead of winter, but I have read articles estimating it to be as low as 50 miles. At that point the cost of gas for the Prius will be the same as electricity for the Leaf (assuming $3.50/gal which is admittedly best case for Hybrid comparison). The reason behind the high costs of electricity is the inherent difficulty in charging batteries. It takes a long time. The Nissan Leaf, for example takes 8 hours for a complete charge on a special $2,000 240V 30 amp circuit. Just imagine what your electricity bill would look like running your dryer or hot water heater 8 hours every day. The deciding factor between the cost of operating an EV vs a Hybrid is dependent not only on the costs of gas, but also the rate at which batteries can be recharged. Which has started a new technology in battery charging design. As we speak millions are being spent by Toyota, Nissan, GM and Ford trying to develop new charging techniques. Some of that development includes new battery chemicals, but the driving force is the time to recharge, because at the current charge densities available with the NiMH and Li-ion batteries charging speed has become as important as charge density. Ultimately the ideal battery would be a huge capacitor with little or no charge time. Then the costs of driving an EV would approach zero – but the capacitor would be the size of a bus and I wouldn’t want to stick my finger in that socket.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Doesn't the Prius have a solar panel on the roof to power the AC? I think tech like this and say start/stop tech would be good additions for fuel saver tech across line-ups

noku

Believe the solar roof on the Prius operates cabin vent fans which lowers the temps during hot days. The a/c can be started w/ the keyless remote before entering the vehicle. I don't own a Prius but I thought these to be what the functionalities are.

DDS62

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...s-plug-battery

http://www.toyota.com/upcoming-vehic...echnology.html

I have been reading about the next generation 2012 Prius that will be available early next year. This Prius will be a Plug-in Hybrid that boasts 13 EV miles in addition to the existing market leading EPA Hybrid mileage of 48/51. Evidently the EPA mileage will not suffer much (albeit numbers have not yet been released) because Toyota will switch to special Li-ion batteries they have been developing that will have much higher energy density. For the most part only propaganda is available, with the design details being kept close to their vest, but one juicy bit of information that has been released is the following statement:

“Built to last for the life of the vehicle, our lithium-ion batteries have undergone more than three years of coordinated field testing in Japan, North America and Europe, in a wide variety of climatic environments and driving conditions.”

The built to last the life of the vehicle blows my skirt up! The longevity of all EV and Hybrid batteries has been a controversial topic. I now have to ask – just how long of a period will Toyota own up to, as the accepted “life” of the vehicle.

DDS62

Did you know the HS does not use the 12V battery to start the car? That is because there is no old fashioned starter motor. The HS uses the high voltage NiMH Traction battery and one of the Hybrid motors to start the car.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...2102525AAdoXUF

Question - why even incorporate a 12V battery?

DDS62

Some love for the Prius and the HS at Consumer's Report.

http://www.hybridcars.com/news/hybri...ers-30086.html

Magellan55

What I don't understand is how they only got 31 mpg from the HS. They got 34 mpg from the TCH, and it's epa rated only 31/35.

hyperme

Yeah, I agree. Same powertrain, the numbers should be very similar but still higher for the HS. I'm not sure how they drive these things either.

rajeev6

I don't think it is correct. You DO NEED the 12V battery to start the car.

Couple of months back, I left the interior lights on over night and it completely drained the 12V battery - the car wouldn't start next morning!
On top of that, when trying to start it, it started giving spurious message on the OLED display (on Energy meter).
My wife called Lexus and the guy came in. He had trouble finding the 12 V battery (it's in the trunk). Then he was clueless as pressing the Start button doesn't kickoff the gas engine. I had to put the car in reverse and pull out of the garage to have the gas engine kick-off.

As it says on the Yahoo Answers, 12V battery powers the computer(s).
But the computer is required to even turn the car on.

RJQMAN

I think Consumer Reports does try to be impartial, but their priorities are not always my priorities, so when I read their articles (which I do before making a major purchase) I try to discount the things that they do not like that are not important to me, and take the things that are important to me that they point out into consideration. I do not think they are owned by or influenced by any gas company or anything remotely similar. But the people at CR tend to be on a different page than me much of the time as far as their overall preferences and overall weightings.

As to the Prius, if your sole goal was to have a car that is large enough to carry four people without them having to double over in a crouch, and to move them with as low a gas price as possible, the Prius makes a lot of sense. Plus it has a few 'extras' that would put it above the pack even if it was not quite as efficient.

But for me, I vastly prefer a more conventionally shaped car with the electronic things that the 250h has. I just wish it the exterior was styled more tastefully.