Oil Consumption
04-10-19, 05:35 PM
#16
Pole Position
yeah, well, we disagree on most of recent topics. 
I trust the Owner’s Manual. Trees were cut down for our reading pleasures. Don’t let them die in vain!
Not sure about your dealership, but my dealership recommends tire rotations and inspection every 5k...but oil change every 10k.
You’re a Certified Master Mechanic? And you did not know about unsprung weight?
I trust the Owner’s Manual. Trees were cut down for our reading pleasures. Don’t let them die in vain!Not sure about your dealership, but my dealership recommends tire rotations and inspection every 5k...but oil change every 10k.
You’re a Certified Master Mechanic? And you did not know about unsprung weight?
If you believe auto manufacturer recommendations always favor your interest over their vested interest, you are incredibly naive.
Last edited by ASE; 04-10-19 at 05:41 PM.
04-10-19, 05:38 PM
#17
Rookie
Thread Starter
04-10-19, 05:42 PM
#18
Every engine is different. You want to know which 3k, 5k, 7500, or 10k intervals is right, right? Do the analysis once and you have your answer. Spend whatever it costs ($100-150) once.......that answer can save you A LOT of money in the long run if you don’t trust Owner’s Manual.
Last edited by tigmd99; 04-10-19 at 05:46 PM.
04-10-19, 05:45 PM
#19
Not looking to "pull G's" or enter my GX460 in a local gymkhana club event ... only looking to improve steering response and handling over the as-delivered marshmallow ride ... so I reserve my unsprung weight concern (as a primary consideration) to a sports car forum where it belongs.
If you believe auto manufacturer recommendations always favor your interest over their vested interest, you are incredibly naive.
If you believe auto manufacturer recommendations always favor your interest over their vested interest, you are incredibly naive.
As for your comments regarding unsprung weight, well, that was pretty funny. LOL. But i will reserve making fun of that in another thread.
04-10-19, 05:47 PM
#21
04-10-19, 06:03 PM
#22
Pole Position
Yes, i trust Owner’s Manual over some internet guy’s claim....especially when that claim has no facts behind it. I am open to doing it every 3k miles.......show me the proof. Show me some facts backing it up.
As for your comments regarding unsprung weight, well, that was pretty funny. LOL. But i will reserve making fun of that in another thread.
As for your comments regarding unsprung weight, well, that was pretty funny. LOL. But i will reserve making fun of that in another thread.
04-10-19, 06:24 PM
#23
04-10-19, 09:04 PM
#24
Pole Position
This is why the majority of engine builders recommend a 1,000 mile oil and filter change ... accelerated wear occurs as mating parts quickly break-in, generating particulates that soon subside ... so why subject the engine to another 9,000 miles with this mixture given this one oil change using synthetic is $40-odd for the oil + $5.00 for a filter ... new oil can only contribute to the future health of an engine ... cheap insurance for a price not worth the prognostication of by how much.
Last edited by ASE; 04-10-19 at 09:54 PM.
04-10-19, 11:00 PM
#25
The mystery of the oil change.
I’ll try to stick to facts as much as I can and then I’ll insert some opinion.
My 2000 land cruiser with 197k miles on it consumes no oil - and many can confirm this. If it’s consuming oil something is going on with it (the land cruiser has the 4.7 2uz engine found on the 1st gen GX). I go 5k between oil changes since back then synthetic was not recommended (only classic 5w30). My 2013 GX with 97k miles consumes no engine oil between changes. I’ve spent enough time on this forum to be fairly certain oil consumption is not an issue. I did read on one of these forums that the point where the oil “starts” changing characteristics is about 7.5k from others in the forum that have had the analysis done. Changing doesn’t mean ineffective but it’s enough for me to not want to go the full 10k. I do the recommended inspection at 5k to keep my cpo warranty but always get the oil changed within 8k of the actual like change.
There are enough high mileage Lexus’s out there that I’m sure didn’t get their oil changed at 1k miles that says that is probably unnecessary but if you are truly this worried, you won’t hurt anything by doing it.
Congrats on the new ride! Enjoy!
I’ll try to stick to facts as much as I can and then I’ll insert some opinion.
My 2000 land cruiser with 197k miles on it consumes no oil - and many can confirm this. If it’s consuming oil something is going on with it (the land cruiser has the 4.7 2uz engine found on the 1st gen GX). I go 5k between oil changes since back then synthetic was not recommended (only classic 5w30). My 2013 GX with 97k miles consumes no engine oil between changes. I’ve spent enough time on this forum to be fairly certain oil consumption is not an issue. I did read on one of these forums that the point where the oil “starts” changing characteristics is about 7.5k from others in the forum that have had the analysis done. Changing doesn’t mean ineffective but it’s enough for me to not want to go the full 10k. I do the recommended inspection at 5k to keep my cpo warranty but always get the oil changed within 8k of the actual like change.
There are enough high mileage Lexus’s out there that I’m sure didn’t get their oil changed at 1k miles that says that is probably unnecessary but if you are truly this worried, you won’t hurt anything by doing it.
Congrats on the new ride! Enjoy!
04-11-19, 12:33 AM
#26
yes, actually. This is a common practice among auto enthusiasts to monitor oil life, transmission/transfer case/differential wear/engine wear, etc. I do it on all my high mileage cars to proactively address and maintenance concerns. It has been far more valuable than the cost of the $29 analysis
04-11-19, 03:02 AM
#27
The mystery of the oil change.
I’ll try to stick to facts as much as I can and then I’ll insert some opinion.
My 2000 land cruiser with 197k miles on it consumes no oil - and many can confirm this. If it’s consuming oil something is going on with it (the land cruiser has the 4.7 2uz engine found on the 1st gen GX). I go 5k between oil changes since back then synthetic was not recommended (only classic 5w30). My 2013 GX with 97k miles consumes no engine oil between changes. I’ve spent enough time on this forum to be fairly certain oil consumption is not an issue. I did read on one of these forums that the point where the oil “starts” changing characteristics is about 7.5k from others in the forum that have had the analysis done. Changing doesn’t mean ineffective but it’s enough for me to not want to go the full 10k. I do the recommended inspection at 5k to keep my cpo warranty but always get the oil changed within 8k of the actual like change.
There are enough high mileage Lexus’s out there that I’m sure didn’t get their oil changed at 1k miles that says that is probably unnecessary but if you are truly this worried, you won’t hurt anything by doing it.
Congrats on the new ride! Enjoy!
I’ll try to stick to facts as much as I can and then I’ll insert some opinion.
My 2000 land cruiser with 197k miles on it consumes no oil - and many can confirm this. If it’s consuming oil something is going on with it (the land cruiser has the 4.7 2uz engine found on the 1st gen GX). I go 5k between oil changes since back then synthetic was not recommended (only classic 5w30). My 2013 GX with 97k miles consumes no engine oil between changes. I’ve spent enough time on this forum to be fairly certain oil consumption is not an issue. I did read on one of these forums that the point where the oil “starts” changing characteristics is about 7.5k from others in the forum that have had the analysis done. Changing doesn’t mean ineffective but it’s enough for me to not want to go the full 10k. I do the recommended inspection at 5k to keep my cpo warranty but always get the oil changed within 8k of the actual like change.
There are enough high mileage Lexus’s out there that I’m sure didn’t get their oil changed at 1k miles that says that is probably unnecessary but if you are truly this worried, you won’t hurt anything by doing it.
Congrats on the new ride! Enjoy!
Last edited by tigmd99; 04-11-19 at 03:16 AM.
04-11-19, 03:15 AM
#28
Yes, the factory does an engine "break-in" but I have changed enough (new engine) 1,000 mile oil to see the difference in particulates held in suspension (and in the filter) as compared to subsequent oil changes with significantly greater mileage.
This is why the majority of engine builders recommend a 1,000 mile oil and filter change ... accelerated wear occurs as mating parts quickly break-in, generating particulates that soon subside ... so why subject the engine to another 9,000 miles with this mixture given this one oil change using synthetic is $40-odd for the oil + $5.00 for a filter ... new oil can only contribute to the future health of an engine ... cheap insurance for a price not worth the prognostication of by how much.
This is why the majority of engine builders recommend a 1,000 mile oil and filter change ... accelerated wear occurs as mating parts quickly break-in, generating particulates that soon subside ... so why subject the engine to another 9,000 miles with this mixture given this one oil change using synthetic is $40-odd for the oil + $5.00 for a filter ... new oil can only contribute to the future health of an engine ... cheap insurance for a price not worth the prognostication of by how much.
04-11-19, 03:38 AM
#29
Here is another source: https://www.edmunds.com/car-maintena...-your-oil.html
This article has some big names from the auto industry commenting. Some quotes:
"One GM car Edmunds drove went 13,000 miles before the monitoring system indicated the need for an oil change. We sent a sample of that oil to a lab for analysis. The results showed that the oil could have safely delivered at least another 2,000 miles of service.
"If customers always just stayed with the 3,000-mile recommendation, there'd be these great strides in the robustness of oil that oil companies have made [that] wouldn't be utilized," said GM's Matt Snider. Consumers, he said, would be "throwing away good oil."
Chris Risdon, a product education specialist for Toyota agreed, adding that oil technology advances that permit fewer changes are a tool to protect the environment. "If you're doing it half as much, that's 5 quarts of oil times 1.7 million vehicles a year — that's a tremendous amount of waste oil that's not being circulated into the environment."
Waste oil is a problem exacerbated by too-frequent oil changes, according to the California Integrated Waste Management Board, which has campaigned against the 3,000-mile dictate. The agency says that 153.5 million gallons of used oil is generated in California annually, but only 59 percent of it is recycled.
Steve Mazor, manager of American Automobile Association's Research Center, said that more-frequent-than-necessary oil changes will not "gain any additional life for your engine or any improved fuel economy." He added, "In reality it will make little or no difference to the performance of the vehicle."
The short answer, meanwhile, is to consult your service manual or Edmunds' maintenance section to learn your car's actual oil change schedule. If your car has an oil life monitoring system, don't try to second-guess it. Understand how it works and follow its guidelines. To probe more deeply into this subject, consider sending a sample of the oil from your next oil change to a lab such as Blackstone Laboratories, for an inexpensive analysis."
Now you can ask....what about an old engine in an older car?
"...we took a 2007 Honda Fit.... The car had an oil life monitoring system, and the system had recommended the past two oil change intervals at 5,500 miles and 7,600 miles on non-synthetic oil. In both cases, an engine oil analysis revealed that the oil could have provided at least another 2,000 miles of service."
So, even with REGULAR oil in an old car (4-banger), you can change oil safely at 7500 miles.
This article has some big names from the auto industry commenting. Some quotes:
"One GM car Edmunds drove went 13,000 miles before the monitoring system indicated the need for an oil change. We sent a sample of that oil to a lab for analysis. The results showed that the oil could have safely delivered at least another 2,000 miles of service.
"If customers always just stayed with the 3,000-mile recommendation, there'd be these great strides in the robustness of oil that oil companies have made [that] wouldn't be utilized," said GM's Matt Snider. Consumers, he said, would be "throwing away good oil."
Chris Risdon, a product education specialist for Toyota agreed, adding that oil technology advances that permit fewer changes are a tool to protect the environment. "If you're doing it half as much, that's 5 quarts of oil times 1.7 million vehicles a year — that's a tremendous amount of waste oil that's not being circulated into the environment."
Waste oil is a problem exacerbated by too-frequent oil changes, according to the California Integrated Waste Management Board, which has campaigned against the 3,000-mile dictate. The agency says that 153.5 million gallons of used oil is generated in California annually, but only 59 percent of it is recycled.
Steve Mazor, manager of American Automobile Association's Research Center, said that more-frequent-than-necessary oil changes will not "gain any additional life for your engine or any improved fuel economy." He added, "In reality it will make little or no difference to the performance of the vehicle."
The short answer, meanwhile, is to consult your service manual or Edmunds' maintenance section to learn your car's actual oil change schedule. If your car has an oil life monitoring system, don't try to second-guess it. Understand how it works and follow its guidelines. To probe more deeply into this subject, consider sending a sample of the oil from your next oil change to a lab such as Blackstone Laboratories, for an inexpensive analysis."
Now you can ask....what about an old engine in an older car?
"...we took a 2007 Honda Fit.... The car had an oil life monitoring system, and the system had recommended the past two oil change intervals at 5,500 miles and 7,600 miles on non-synthetic oil. In both cases, an engine oil analysis revealed that the oil could have provided at least another 2,000 miles of service."
So, even with REGULAR oil in an old car (4-banger), you can change oil safely at 7500 miles.
Last edited by tigmd99; 04-11-19 at 03:43 AM.
04-11-19, 03:42 AM
#30
Now here is a post that i found interesting in Bob is The Oil Guy....but be warn, i cannot verify any truths.....because i am simply not smart enough but food for thought:
"Save your money and save your engine
A lot of the advice above is typical forum-perpetuated myth. Someone on this forum recently stated that it can't hurt to change your oil too often. Unfortunately that couldn't be more wrong.
The Problem
5000 km change intervals are harmful to your engine and our DI engines are even more vulnerable to the type of damage done by over servicing than PFI engines.
Why does the problem exist?
It's a cultural thing that arose in the US and was driven by marketing and profit making. The consequent myths and consumer expectations are now entrenched. The cultural gap is now so broad than in the US a car may have an 8000km OCI, while the same model, from the same production line, might have a 20,000 km OCI when sold in Europe where people aren't affected by the myths.
Why it's OK to follow the manufacturers service interval
All synthetic oils are capable of exceeding the manufacturers recommended OCI by at least 50% or more. It's incorrect to suggest the oil could break down or succumb to sludge any earlier.
People using oil analysis reports to justify over servicing aren't reading them correctly. None of the reports that I've seen on DISI engines have shown oil that has reached condemning limits in terms of insolubles and oxidation. As for the solubles, if they are excessive, you need to drive the car further, not change the oil.
The references to carbon contamination are also incorrect. People naturally assume that black oil is unhealthy, when the opposite is true. The colour of the oil is an indication of how well it's doing its job. The darker the better (up to a point not exceeding the manufacturers OCI).
If you had a problem with contamination (not that you do, but if you did) the solution is to change the oil filter, not the oil.
Why is it harmful to change the oil too frequently?
In a word; volatility. Oil volatility is at its greatest in the first 3000km after an oil change. After that the volatility reduces and the oil stabilises.
Volatility is particularly bad for a DI engine because all of the lost fractions exit via the PCV system. Much of it goes out through the rocker cover vent, into the intake, through the turbo compressor and intercooler, then puddles in the bottom of the inlet manifold where it combines with the stuff coming through the PCV valve to coat the inlet valves and combustion chambers in gunk.
That black soot you see in your exhaust pipes, don�t assume it�s all caused by rich mixture. Excessive oil changing will contribute more soot.
The presence of oil in the intake also lowers the octane rating of your fuel leading to detonation.
The NOACK volatility test quantifies the extent of oil evaporation. The test standard - ASTM D5800 - 08 Standard Test Method for Evaporation Loss of Lubricating Oils by the Noack Method � also hints at another kind of danger associated with frequent oil changes where it states �Procedure C, using the Selby-Noack apparatus, also permits collection of the volatile oil vapors for determination of their physical and chemical properties. Elemental analysis of the collected volatiles may be helpful in identifying components such as phosphorous, which has been linked to premature degradation of the emission system catalyst.�
A lot of phosphorous is lost in the initial boil-off phase of new oil and it�s likely to be harming oxygen sensors and cats.
Engine manufacturers understand the problem and it would be easy for them to identify the type of damage done by over servicing and potentially result in a warranty claim denial.
Summary
By changing your oil at 5000km, you are subjecting your engine to oil that is almost always in the initial boil-off phase. It's contaminating and filling your engine with gunk. Contrary to popular and uninformed opinion, oil that is 10,000 km old is not likely to be harmful, and would certainly be less harmful than fresh oil.
I've never changed my oil more frequently than the specified 10,000 km OCI and my engine is in perfect condition after 106,000 km with no problems with contamination, gunk or soot.
When my warranty expires I would have no qualms running my oil out to 12,500 or even 15,000 km providing an oil analysis indicates that insolubles and oxidation are not excessive. And I'm sure my engine will thank me for it by remaining in peak uncontaminated condition."
A lot of the advice above is typical forum-perpetuated myth. Someone on this forum recently stated that it can't hurt to change your oil too often. Unfortunately that couldn't be more wrong.
The Problem
5000 km change intervals are harmful to your engine and our DI engines are even more vulnerable to the type of damage done by over servicing than PFI engines.
Why does the problem exist?
It's a cultural thing that arose in the US and was driven by marketing and profit making. The consequent myths and consumer expectations are now entrenched. The cultural gap is now so broad than in the US a car may have an 8000km OCI, while the same model, from the same production line, might have a 20,000 km OCI when sold in Europe where people aren't affected by the myths.
Why it's OK to follow the manufacturers service interval
All synthetic oils are capable of exceeding the manufacturers recommended OCI by at least 50% or more. It's incorrect to suggest the oil could break down or succumb to sludge any earlier.
People using oil analysis reports to justify over servicing aren't reading them correctly. None of the reports that I've seen on DISI engines have shown oil that has reached condemning limits in terms of insolubles and oxidation. As for the solubles, if they are excessive, you need to drive the car further, not change the oil.
The references to carbon contamination are also incorrect. People naturally assume that black oil is unhealthy, when the opposite is true. The colour of the oil is an indication of how well it's doing its job. The darker the better (up to a point not exceeding the manufacturers OCI).
If you had a problem with contamination (not that you do, but if you did) the solution is to change the oil filter, not the oil.
Why is it harmful to change the oil too frequently?
In a word; volatility. Oil volatility is at its greatest in the first 3000km after an oil change. After that the volatility reduces and the oil stabilises.
Volatility is particularly bad for a DI engine because all of the lost fractions exit via the PCV system. Much of it goes out through the rocker cover vent, into the intake, through the turbo compressor and intercooler, then puddles in the bottom of the inlet manifold where it combines with the stuff coming through the PCV valve to coat the inlet valves and combustion chambers in gunk.
That black soot you see in your exhaust pipes, don�t assume it�s all caused by rich mixture. Excessive oil changing will contribute more soot.
The presence of oil in the intake also lowers the octane rating of your fuel leading to detonation.
The NOACK volatility test quantifies the extent of oil evaporation. The test standard - ASTM D5800 - 08 Standard Test Method for Evaporation Loss of Lubricating Oils by the Noack Method � also hints at another kind of danger associated with frequent oil changes where it states �Procedure C, using the Selby-Noack apparatus, also permits collection of the volatile oil vapors for determination of their physical and chemical properties. Elemental analysis of the collected volatiles may be helpful in identifying components such as phosphorous, which has been linked to premature degradation of the emission system catalyst.�
A lot of phosphorous is lost in the initial boil-off phase of new oil and it�s likely to be harming oxygen sensors and cats.
Engine manufacturers understand the problem and it would be easy for them to identify the type of damage done by over servicing and potentially result in a warranty claim denial.
Summary
By changing your oil at 5000km, you are subjecting your engine to oil that is almost always in the initial boil-off phase. It's contaminating and filling your engine with gunk. Contrary to popular and uninformed opinion, oil that is 10,000 km old is not likely to be harmful, and would certainly be less harmful than fresh oil.
I've never changed my oil more frequently than the specified 10,000 km OCI and my engine is in perfect condition after 106,000 km with no problems with contamination, gunk or soot.
When my warranty expires I would have no qualms running my oil out to 12,500 or even 15,000 km providing an oil analysis indicates that insolubles and oxidation are not excessive. And I'm sure my engine will thank me for it by remaining in peak uncontaminated condition."