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Manheim, L/Certified or Non-Lexus Dealer?

 
Old 02-19-19, 03:03 PM
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Spartan117
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Default Manheim, L/Certified or Non-Lexus Dealer?

Greetings CL members! Long time user and a first time poster.

I am in the market for a used GX. I have a "dealer friend" who can get me a GX at MMR + his fees ($1000 + $ ​500 delivery). I am pondering should I get L/certified instead or from a non Lexus dealer. I am also considering Carvana and Carmax.

Manheim
pros: huge discount, wholesale price
Cons: cant look and feel, and no test drive prior to purchase

L/certified
Pros: L/certified and peace of mind
Cons: $5000-6000 higher than Manheim

Others
Pros: look in person and test drive (inspect) before buying
Cons: $3000-4000 higher than Manheim

After test driving X5, Q7 and LR4, I am considering GX for its offroad capabilities, comfort and reliability. ​​​​​I know you cant go wrong with info on Carfax and service history on Lexus, and remaining factory warranty.

I am after a 15-16 luxury starfire pearl on sepia with Driver Support Package..

Any thoughts on Manheim vs dealer?
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Old 02-19-19, 03:18 PM
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Manheim is probably your best bet. Least markup, and whatever money you save, even if it the vehicle has some scars, you`d be in a good position.

L/Certified and Used means nothing different in some aspects. Disclaimer, huge cynic of the CPO process.

Both vehicles are used vehicles, so you should still be doing your own indy PPI on both vehicles. The premium on a CPO just gives you a limited warranty upgrade if thats something you need on the GX (trend wise, you probably dont, but you never know and neither would any of us).

I mentioned this to someone else who had a similar question, and I think it stands true for High residuals value vehicles like the LX and GX.

Value/$:
Manheim>New Vehicle is discount is huge>2nd hand market.
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Old 02-19-19, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Spartan117 View Post
Greetings CL members! Long time user and a first time poster.

I am in the market for a used GX. I have a "dealer friend" who can get me a GX at MMR + his fees ($1000 + $ ​500 delivery). I am pondering should I get L/certified instead or from a non Lexus dealer. I am also considering Carvana and Carmax.

Manheim
pros: huge discount, wholesale price
Cons: cant look and feel, and no test drive prior to purchase

L/certified
Pros: L/certified and peace of mind
Cons: $5000-6000 higher than Manheim

Others
Pros: look in person and test drive (inspect) before buying
Cons: $3000-4000 higher than Manheim

After test driving X5, Q7 and LR4, I am considering GX for its offroad capabilities, comfort and reliability. ​​​​​I know you cant go wrong with info on Carfax and service history on Lexus, and remaining factory warranty.

I am after a 15-16 luxury starfire pearl on sepia with Driver Support Package..

Any thoughts on Manheim vs dealer?
Stupid question...but have you considered 2020 4runner?? Maybe 2020 4runner Limited? Or TRD models?

For a USED car, i think that buying it without looking and driving is just a really really bad idea.
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Old 02-19-19, 03:22 PM
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Let me bring this thread up: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gx-...on-failed.html

Extreme example but read the thread!! Do you really want to be stuck in the above problem withOUT a CPO warranty? Yeah, the CPO may have missed the above issues...but the CPO warranty in that poster is worth its weight in gold!!
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Old 02-19-19, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by tigmd99 View Post
Let me bring this thread up: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gx-...on-failed.html

Extreme example but read the thread!! Do you really want to be stuck in the above problem withOUT a CPO warranty? Yeah, the CPO may have missed the above issues...but the CPO warranty in that poster is worth its weight in gold!!
The OP is considering a 15, i`d check if any of the remaining warranty exists, if not compare the cost of a CPO with maybe a My16 with 2 years of warranty left
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Old 02-19-19, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by tigmd99 View Post


Stupid question...but have you considered 2020 4runner?? Maybe 2020 4runner Limited? Or TRD models?

For a USED car, i think that buying it without looking and driving is just a really really bad idea.
OP here, looked at 2019 4runner limited (need 3rd row) which put in a price range of GX! I would not buy used unless still under factory warranty.


Originally Posted by tigmd99 View Post
Let me bring this thread up: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gx-...on-failed.html

Extreme example but read the thread!! Do you really want to be stuck in the above problem withOUT a CPO warranty? Yeah, the CPO may have missed the above issues...but the CPO warranty in that poster is worth its weight in gold!!
Saw that post couple of days ago and thank you for sharing. Very rare for a GX... CPO certainly has its benefits. I would get a used GX still under warranty and may buy Lexus Platinum warranty (from savings if bought from Manheim) though many would say not needed.
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Old 02-20-19, 01:19 PM
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Manheim has a pretty good condition reporting system. I'd look for something 4.5 or above. Also your dealer should be able to inspect the car personally before he bids.

Looking for something only a couple years old, I'd be tempted to shop new ones hard and look for an aggressive discount.
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Old 02-20-19, 01:46 PM
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Things to consider if you decide to go with manheim route.
History of vehicles that end up on manheim vary quite a lot. In the best case scenario they can simply be a lease return that the dealer decided to get off their lots or on the other hand, it can be a repossessed vehicle that was dragged off by a tow truck with the other two wheels on the ground. Then you have the in between units that came from out of state and etc. Many would think to approach the manheim to save money but you have to realize that they come with a risk. Risks such as tow damage, flood damage, frame reconstruction, mileage recording discrepancies, cloned vins, lost titles and the like. Not trying to scare you but just as the savings the risks are also a reality. I have a very good friend in the industry that tells me about these issues quite often. Here are some real life examples.
1) a vehicle was purchased at the auction and the auction says title is missing and that you would need to contact the original lienholder on the state in which the vehicle was titled. (you would need to contact the finance company that holds the lien, obtain a letter of satisfied lien and register the vehicle with the dmv)
2) a vehicle was purchased at the auction, previous was at a NC ford dealer who marked the vehicle that is sold at CA auction as "not actual mileage" either by error or in truth, you'd need to contact the dmv sacramento to assign a local dmv investigator to inspect the unit and the vin (takes 90-120 days) then clear the information with proof on carfax (takes 2-3days).
3) most 4wd are robust enough to handle a wreckless tow and tire drag for couple yards but I prefer to stay away from all of them if I can.
4) vehicles involved in accidents without insurance are repaired with cash and retain their "clean title" There is no trace of accident history anywhere including dmv and carfax reports. Sure it can just be the front bumper or the hood but with a matching color panel purchased off a salvage yard, even the paint thickness checker can't help you.
Manheim sells at wholesale...and that's what the market is intended to serve: the wholesale market. They purchase those vehicles with the mentioned risks, put some recon money into it if need be and remarket them to less wary buyers in the secondary market.

I too have some contacts who'd be able to grab a vehicle from the lines if willing but these thoughts coupled with $30,000 + never really made much sense to me.

Hope that helps.
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Old 02-20-19, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rmason View Post
Things to consider if you decide to go with manheim route.
History of vehicles that end up on manheim vary quite a lot. In the best case scenario they can simply be a lease return that the dealer decided to get off their lots or on the other hand, it can be a repossessed vehicle that was dragged off by a tow truck with the other two wheels on the ground. Then you have the in between units that came from out of state and etc. Many would think to approach the manheim to save money but you have to realize that they come with a risk. Risks such as tow damage, flood damage, frame reconstruction, mileage recording discrepancies, cloned vins, lost titles and the like. Not trying to scare you but just as the savings the risks are also a reality. I have a very good friend in the industry that tells me about these issues quite often. Here are some real life examples.
1) a vehicle was purchased at the auction and the auction says title is missing and that you would need to contact the original lienholder on the state in which the vehicle was titled. (you would need to contact the finance company that holds the lien, obtain a letter of satisfied lien and register the vehicle with the dmv)
2) a vehicle was purchased at the auction, previous was at a NC ford dealer who marked the vehicle that is sold at CA auction as "not actual mileage" either by error or in truth, you'd need to contact the dmv sacramento to assign a local dmv investigator to inspect the unit and the vin (takes 90-120 days) then clear the information with proof on carfax (takes 2-3days).
3) most 4wd are robust enough to handle a wreckless tow and tire drag for couple yards but I prefer to stay away from all of them if I can.
4) vehicles involved in accidents without insurance are repaired with cash and retain their "clean title" There is no trace of accident history anywhere including dmv and carfax reports. Sure it can just be the front bumper or the hood but with a matching color panel purchased off a salvage yard, even the paint thickness checker can't help you.
Manheim sells at wholesale...and that's what the market is intended to serve: the wholesale market. They purchase those vehicles with the mentioned risks, put some recon money into it if need be and remarket them to less wary buyers in the secondary market.

I too have some contacts who'd be able to grab a vehicle from the lines if willing but these thoughts coupled with $30,000 + never really made much sense to me.

Hope that helps.
All valid concerns, but where does a Used vehicle most of time come from...Mannheim, and then the lease returns/trade ins.

1) Titles issues are usually declared at the auction line (last I heard)
2) Mileage irregularities declarations I have not heard if its declared or not so cant comment
3) Wreckless tows...even a CPO could suffer that fate, hard to tell, but thats usually a risk that comes with the territory of used vehicles.
4) Haha the stories on accident reports exist even on CPOs. Hence one of the reasons I`m a huge cynic on CPO vehicles. CarFax looks clean, paint checker is good, but car tracks funny. Turns out it was in wreck or during a future trade-in carfax updates to reflect damage.

I`m not saying Mannheim is a perfect, I agree its designed for volume dealership lots and the costs and risks that come with it. However a good dealer connect, who has experience on what to look for, can score a good deal, especially if the used car has the balance of the factory warranty like the OP is going for.

If you dont want to risk it, of course a CPO, with an independent PPI, full service history, on lift inspection is the safest used bet. But there will be reseller premium on the CPO, and its not cause they performed the 1000000 point inspection, just cause the vehicle has the CPO warranty, assume nothing is different vs a used car without a CPO.
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Old 02-20-19, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by coolsaber View Post
All valid concerns, but where does a Used vehicle most of time come from...Mannheim, and then the lease returns/trade ins.

1) Titles issues are usually declared at the auction line (last I heard)
2) Mileage irregularities declarations I have not heard if its declared or not so cant comment
3) Wreckless tows...even a CPO could suffer that fate, hard to tell, but thats usually a risk that comes with the territory of used vehicles.
4) Haha the stories on accident reports exist even on CPOs. Hence one of the reasons I`m a huge cynic on CPO vehicles. CarFax looks clean, paint checker is good, but car tracks funny. Turns out it was in wreck or during a future trade-in carfax updates to reflect damage.

I`m not saying Mannheim is a perfect, I agree its designed for volume dealership lots and the costs and risks that come with it. However a good dealer connect, who has experience on what to look for, can score a good deal, especially if the used car has the balance of the factory warranty like the OP is going for.

If you dont want to risk it, of course a CPO, with an independent PPI, full service history, on lift inspection is the safest used bet. But there will be reseller premium on the CPO, and its not cause they performed the 1000000 point inspection, just cause the vehicle has the CPO warranty, assume nothing is different vs a used car without a CPO.
CPO sales are on the rise and while the majority may be inclined to recommend CPO's there will always be instances where some experiences will turn a trusted purchase to a cynic like yourself. I too have had experience with a bad CPO before.
It's a bit different though in terms of risk though; manheim being the greater of the two by quite a lot imho. With a CPO, surely you'll have to pay the premium or the so called middle man but you will have your recourse to take the vehicle back to the dealer for any repairs for the 24-30 months from the date of purchase should anything not perform to spec. Furthermore, I was told vehicles with repainted panels do not qualify for lexus CPO resale specifications according to the local fleet manager. (feel free to chime in if anyone knows for sure)

I've attached a copy of the mileage discrepancy problem vehicle that my friend told me about..a out of state unit from a ford dealership in NC to Manheim to him. I didn't think things like this happen that often but I suppose there's no bad deals until you purchase a bad deal....the fiasco took him 4 months to clear up with two separate trips to dmv so I know they're out there and I personally don't want anything to do with them thats all.

In all, hope the OP finds a great deal whichever route he chooses.




Last edited by rmason; 02-20-19 at 05:12 PM. Reason: Clarification
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Old 02-21-19, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by rmason View Post
Things to consider if you decide to go with manheim route.
History of vehicles that end up on manheim vary quite a lot. In the best case scenario they can simply be a lease return that the dealer decided to get off their lots or on the other hand, it can be a repossessed vehicle that was dragged off by a tow truck with the other two wheels on the ground. Then you have the in between units that came from out of state and etc. Many would think to approach the manheim to save money but you have to realize that they come with a risk. Risks such as tow damage, flood damage, frame reconstruction, mileage recording discrepancies, cloned vins, lost titles and the like. Not trying to scare you but just as the savings the risks are also a reality. I have a very good friend in the industry that tells me about these issues quite often. Here are some real life examples.
1) a vehicle was purchased at the auction and the auction says title is missing and that you would need to contact the original lienholder on the state in which the vehicle was titled. (you would need to contact the finance company that holds the lien, obtain a letter of satisfied lien and register the vehicle with the dmv)
2) a vehicle was purchased at the auction, previous was at a NC ford dealer who marked the vehicle that is sold at CA auction as "not actual mileage" either by error or in truth, you'd need to contact the dmv sacramento to assign a local dmv investigator to inspect the unit and the vin (takes 90-120 days) then clear the information with proof on carfax (takes 2-3days).
3) most 4wd are robust enough to handle a wreckless tow and tire drag for couple yards but I prefer to stay away from all of them if I can.
4) vehicles involved in accidents without insurance are repaired with cash and retain their "clean title" There is no trace of accident history anywhere including dmv and carfax reports. Sure it can just be the front bumper or the hood but with a matching color panel purchased off a salvage yard, even the paint thickness checker can't help you.
Manheim sells at wholesale...and that's what the market is intended to serve: the wholesale market. They purchase those vehicles with the mentioned risks, put some recon money into it if need be and remarket them to less wary buyers in the secondary market.

I too have some contacts who'd be able to grab a vehicle from the lines if willing but these thoughts coupled with $30,000 + never really made much sense to me.

Hope that helps.
Some misinformation here.

First, manheim is not buying and selling cars itself. They are an auction organization where sellers come to sell and buyers come to buy. Usually you can tell right away if you're buying from another used car lot or directly from a manufacturer, e.g., BMW financial, Volkswagen credit, etc.

Manheim specifically has separate salvage auctions and salvage auction lanes whereby they sell branded title, wrecked and other salvage inventory. They move a ton of salvage inventory and it's clearly labeled as such.

Like you mention, there's typically a note regarding any other title issues such as missing title. As a wholesale dealer buyer, you can simply avoid those cars. The cars with stated title or other defects sell at a substantial discount.

Further, for cars without stated defects, if for any reason a dealer buyer doesn't receive the title in a timely fashion, the dealer can be compensated for damages, either in cash, or actually shipping the car back at the seller's expense.

Finally, Manheim literally moves millions and millions of vehicles every year. I'm sure a lot of repossessions get brought to Manheim but the chances of a nice clear title car bought through manheim having had a repo/"wreckless tow and tire drag" are pretty minuscule. A substantial portion of CPO inventory across all manufacturers comes from manheim auction to begin with.

Is there still a risk that if you buy a clear title, nice condition car from manheim, you'll get a car with hidden repairs? Absolutely. But you have the same risk buying a used car in general, be it at joe's used car lot or Lexus Certified Pre-Owned.
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Old 02-21-19, 12:46 PM
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Appreciate everybody's responses! Auto Auction or CPO, some risk is always there and I think L/Certified kind of gives peace of mind (at least for couple of years after the warranty expires).

BTW, I came across a 2016 GX which I like but I think asking price is bit high. Listed at $45,500, 21K miles, L/Certified, exterior is White (as per Lexus) Silver (on dealer site), interior is Sepia. No pictures on the dealer site yet... Carfax looks clean. However, Fuel Injector Carbon Deposit Removal service was performed at 20,000 miles... Should this be concerning?

VIN: JTJJM7FX1G5143913

Last edited by Spartan117; 02-21-19 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 02-21-19, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Spartan117 View Post
Appreciate everybody's responses! Auto Auction or CPO, some risk is always there and I think L/Certified kind of gives peace of mind (at least for couple of years after the warranty expires).

BTW, I came across a 2016 GX which I likes but feel like asking price is bit high. Listed at $45,500, 21K miles, L/Certified, exterior is White (as per Lexus) Silver (on dealer site), interior is Sepia. No pictures on the dealer site yet... Carfax looks clean. However, Fuel Injector Carbon Deposit Removal service was performed at 20,000 miles... Should this be concerning?

VIN: JTJJM7FX1G5143913
The VIN checks out this vehicle to be Lux package. Not adding tow hitch, dvd players and ML sound system booked for zip code around your neck of the woods in WI the below is what it says.
Unless a factory defect or a very convincing service manager, I can't see why that service was performed....but I suppose it couldn't hurt.

Good luck.


Last edited by rmason; 02-21-19 at 01:13 PM. Reason: correction
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Old 02-21-19, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Spartan117 View Post
Appreciate everybody's responses! Auto Auction or CPO, some risk is always there and I think L/Certified kind of gives peace of mind (at least for couple of years after the warranty expires).

BTW, I came across a 2016 GX which I like but I think asking price is bit high. Listed at $45,500, 21K miles, L/Certified, exterior is White (as per Lexus) Silver (on dealer site), interior is Sepia. No pictures on the dealer site yet... Carfax looks clean. However, Fuel Injector Carbon Deposit Removal service was performed at 20,000 miles... Should this be concerning?

VIN: JTJJM7FX1G5143913
How about this one: https://texasdirectauto.com/for-sale...JM7FX3G5130466

I actually took at look at this and checked with Lexus dealer. Clean. Luxury package + ML audio, but no driver support.
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Old 02-22-19, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Madtiger View Post


How about this one: https://texasdirectauto.com/for-sale...JM7FX3G5130466

I actually took at look at this and checked with Lexus dealer. Clean. Luxury package + ML audio, but no driver support.
Wow, that Lexus GX in the link has been sold!! Spartan...did you buy it?
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