Suspension upgrade options
10-13-11, 12:12 PM
#1
Suspension upgrade options
The most active thread in this forum is https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gx-...t-shaking.html, so I figured some might be interested in what I've found. I've had plans for a mild lift and suspension upgrade since day one but assumed it wouldn't be for awhile. But while towing a new pop up trailer home (Fleetwood Phoenix) the ride up the 5 freeway was horrible. So now I've made the suspension upgrade a priority. I've spoke to many vendors, 95% of them said sell the GX and buy a 4Runner. Even ARB who builds Old Man Emu kits for just about every Toyota ever made even the Prado 150 said, "sell the GX". My reply, "The 4Runner doesn't come with a v8".
Then I contacted MetalTech 4x4 out of Newberg, Oregon. Mark and LT have helped me with almost all my Land Cruiser upgrades ( mall cruiser to rock crawler), so I felt very comfortable that they wouldn't just sell me something. They actually did most of the leg work for me. Basically the Australian/ Russian Prado 150 , our (USA) 5th gen 4runner, base GX and even the FJ Cruiser are all basically set up the same. Their springs, shocks and struts are simply tuned differently for weight differences. LT found 2 solid options for us. Icon Vehicle Dynamics has 6 "stages" or options for us found here... http://www.metaltech4x4.com/m-22-ico...aspx?pagenum=3. I know the upper control arms will fit perfectly but not sure if the trailing arms and pan-rod bar work.
Radflo has limited options, but they use Eibach coil springs in their coil-overs (http://www.metaltech4x4.com/p-370-ra...coilovers.aspx) . Which in my opinion are the best springs money can buy. Their rear shock can be found here...http://www.metaltech4x4.com/p-374-fj...ar-shocks.aspx.
I'll post feedback and pictures when I pull the trigger on one of these options.
Then I contacted MetalTech 4x4 out of Newberg, Oregon. Mark and LT have helped me with almost all my Land Cruiser upgrades ( mall cruiser to rock crawler), so I felt very comfortable that they wouldn't just sell me something. They actually did most of the leg work for me. Basically the Australian/ Russian Prado 150 , our (USA) 5th gen 4runner, base GX and even the FJ Cruiser are all basically set up the same. Their springs, shocks and struts are simply tuned differently for weight differences. LT found 2 solid options for us. Icon Vehicle Dynamics has 6 "stages" or options for us found here... http://www.metaltech4x4.com/m-22-ico...aspx?pagenum=3. I know the upper control arms will fit perfectly but not sure if the trailing arms and pan-rod bar work.
Radflo has limited options, but they use Eibach coil springs in their coil-overs (http://www.metaltech4x4.com/p-370-ra...coilovers.aspx) . Which in my opinion are the best springs money can buy. Their rear shock can be found here...http://www.metaltech4x4.com/p-374-fj...ar-shocks.aspx.
I'll post feedback and pictures when I pull the trigger on one of these options.
10-13-11, 04:20 PM
#4
If you knew you were going to be towing you should have sprung for the Premium. The Premium has two major suspension differences over the base model. AVS - Adaptive Variable Suspension, which is a computer controlled dampening system (shocks) and EMRAS - Electronically Modulated Rear Air Suspension with air springs, automatic load-leveling and three-position manual height control. I can tell you from personal experience the Premium would tow your pop-up extremely smooth and controlled. I'm not sure what you consider horrible towing so please post what issues you are having. Pop-ups are fairly light and I can't imagine even the base GX having a problem towing it. The 4Runner with the V6 is not the answer. I towed with one (V8 Limited with XREAS and EMRAS) and it doesn't tow as good as the GX460 Premium (and my new trailer is approx 1500 lbs more). Without knowing what issues you experienced with the GX I would recommend starting with a set of air bags in the rear springs and see if that helps and then go for coil-overs if needed. You should make changes one at a time to see the affects of each, one at a time and to not waste money. Do NOT lift the vehicle, you would change all the ride dynamics of the vehicle. Give more details like weight and length of your trailer.
Here is my setup. It is approx 4200 lbs loaded and 20 ft long closed and the Premium tows it like a dream. I just got back from a 2000 mile trip to Hilton Head Island, SC and cruised at 75 mph and averaged 15 mpg. I've taken four trips so far this year (approx 5K miles total) and can tell you the best ride is with the AVS set at the comfort setting (which is the softest dampening setting). Which shows that the tightest suspension is not always the best option. A big factor in ride is tire pressure. I've found running the max in the trailer (65 psi) and 40F/45R on the GX was best. I will be go to E rated tires on the GX next season and will probably run them at at 60F/65R. Makes a huge difference.
If you want to solve all your problems without changing anything get the Hensley Cub towing system.
http://hensleymfg.com/products/the-hensley-cub/
Koz
Here is my setup. It is approx 4200 lbs loaded and 20 ft long closed and the Premium tows it like a dream. I just got back from a 2000 mile trip to Hilton Head Island, SC and cruised at 75 mph and averaged 15 mpg. I've taken four trips so far this year (approx 5K miles total) and can tell you the best ride is with the AVS set at the comfort setting (which is the softest dampening setting). Which shows that the tightest suspension is not always the best option. A big factor in ride is tire pressure. I've found running the max in the trailer (65 psi) and 40F/45R on the GX was best. I will be go to E rated tires on the GX next season and will probably run them at at 60F/65R. Makes a huge difference.
If you want to solve all your problems without changing anything get the Hensley Cub towing system.
http://hensleymfg.com/products/the-hensley-cub/
Koz
Last edited by Koz; 10-13-11 at 04:35 PM.
10-14-11, 11:20 AM
#5
Koz I think you are missing the point here. Although you have a really nice trailer. I didn't get the premium for many reasons, but the main reason being no AHC. Why you ask? Because like I mentioned in my previous post, I want to LIFT THE VEHICLE. KOZ for you to be a moderator and tell me NOT to do something to my own car, is well... surprising. I'm sure you'll try and talk me out of an ARB safari bar as well. Maybe a "do it and report back" or "Interesting, why would you want to lift this truck?" would a bit more appropriate. If you were speaking from experience I might stop and listen, but you aren't. I've done the research, I've talked to people from AUS who lift these trucks everyday, 2 inches will not effect the vehicles geometry or "ride dynamics". My plan is to lift the truck 2 inches via coil springs in the rear and adjustable coil overs in the front. The shocks and struts on the base model trucks, in my opinion, are in need of an upgrade. I can always go back to stock height with an adjustment to the CO's and swap the stock springs back in.
To answer your question...
I have a 2005 Fleetwood Tuscon. I know.... I know, I said Phoenix. I guess you can see where I got confused. The trailer only weighs 2400 lbs and is about 17' long. I started to describe my experience towing and summed it up with "horrible". Here in CA we have concrete freeways, not asphalt like in the Midwest (I grew up in the MW). When they wear and break down they create horizontal grooves that I would describe as over-sized washboard. The sensation of going over these bumps is what I was meaning by horrible. It was like being shaken by a paint mixer, slowly. I wouldn't attribute this sensation to bad shocks or springs but to the condition of the road. I'd like to combat the horrible freeways here with a better suspension. Even my 3 yr old commented on the "bumpy road". The GX pulled the trailer just fine. There was no swaying and was even able to hold 6 gear up a long slow grade.
To answer your question...
I have a 2005 Fleetwood Tuscon. I know.... I know, I said Phoenix. I guess you can see where I got confused. The trailer only weighs 2400 lbs and is about 17' long. I started to describe my experience towing and summed it up with "horrible". Here in CA we have concrete freeways, not asphalt like in the Midwest (I grew up in the MW). When they wear and break down they create horizontal grooves that I would describe as over-sized washboard. The sensation of going over these bumps is what I was meaning by horrible. It was like being shaken by a paint mixer, slowly. I wouldn't attribute this sensation to bad shocks or springs but to the condition of the road. I'd like to combat the horrible freeways here with a better suspension. Even my 3 yr old commented on the "bumpy road". The GX pulled the trailer just fine. There was no swaying and was even able to hold 6 gear up a long slow grade.
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10-15-11, 06:47 AM
#8
Koz I think you are missing the point here. Although you have a really nice trailer. I didn't get the premium for many reasons, but the main reason being no AHC. Why you ask? Because like I mentioned in my previous post, I want to LIFT THE VEHICLE. KOZ for you to be a moderator and tell me NOT to do something to my own car, is well... surprising. I'm sure you'll try and talk me out of an ARB safari bar as well. Maybe a "do it and report back" or "Interesting, why would you want to lift this truck?" would a bit more appropriate. If you were speaking from experience I might stop and listen, but you aren't. I've done the research, I've talked to people from AUS who lift these trucks everyday, 2 inches will not effect the vehicles geometry or "ride dynamics". My plan is to lift the truck 2 inches via coil springs in the rear and adjustable coil overs in the front. The shocks and struts on the base model trucks, in my opinion, are in need of an upgrade. I can always go back to stock height with an adjustment to the CO's and swap the stock springs back in.
To answer your question...
I have a 2005 Fleetwood Tuscon. I know.... I know, I said Phoenix. I guess you can see where I got confused. The trailer only weighs 2400 lbs and is about 17' long. I started to describe my experience towing and summed it up with "horrible". Here in CA we have concrete freeways, not asphalt like in the Midwest (I grew up in the MW). When they wear and break down they create horizontal grooves that I would describe as over-sized washboard. The sensation of going over these bumps is what I was meaning by horrible. It was like being shaken by a paint mixer, slowly. I wouldn't attribute this sensation to bad shocks or springs but to the condition of the road. I'd like to combat the horrible freeways here with a better suspension. Even my 3 yr old commented on the "bumpy road". The GX pulled the trailer just fine. There was no swaying and was even able to hold 6 gear up a long slow grade.
To answer your question...
I have a 2005 Fleetwood Tuscon. I know.... I know, I said Phoenix. I guess you can see where I got confused. The trailer only weighs 2400 lbs and is about 17' long. I started to describe my experience towing and summed it up with "horrible". Here in CA we have concrete freeways, not asphalt like in the Midwest (I grew up in the MW). When they wear and break down they create horizontal grooves that I would describe as over-sized washboard. The sensation of going over these bumps is what I was meaning by horrible. It was like being shaken by a paint mixer, slowly. I wouldn't attribute this sensation to bad shocks or springs but to the condition of the road. I'd like to combat the horrible freeways here with a better suspension. Even my 3 yr old commented on the "bumpy road". The GX pulled the trailer just fine. There was no swaying and was even able to hold 6 gear up a long slow grade.
As far as removing a (very expensive and elaborate) computer controlled active variable suspension system (that works well and is tuned to work with the KDSS and EMRAS) for the components you posted (in my opinion) doesn't seem to be what anyone who bought a luxury SUV would want to do.
Good luck with your mod intentions and please keep us posted as to the results.
PS - What is AHC?
Koz
Last edited by Koz; 10-17-11 at 12:15 PM.
10-16-11, 10:47 AM
#10
Koz
Last edited by Koz; 10-16-11 at 04:16 PM.
10-17-11, 08:48 AM
#11
Sorry ShawShank, I misunderstood your OP. It sounded like you were going to change suspension components and lift your vehicle because of a horrible ride when towing your pop-up, when your intention was to lift your vehicle and tighten up your suspension. I'm guessing you feel this would help your towing ride. With this said, I was trying to help by sharing my personal experience with many years of towing with Toyota/Lexus vehicles. My point was, lifting and tightening up the suspension my have the opposite effect on the tow ride. As I stated, when I manually adjusted the suspension to the comfort setting (softest setting on the AVS system) it provided the best ride. Also I have found that lifting the vehicle is last thing you would want to do if you have a horrible ride, not knowing exactly what was your horrible. I was only trying to save you a good chunk of change by changing components/dynamics that may have a negative effect. Again, sorry for the misunderstanding.
As far as removing a (very expensive and elaborate) computer controlled active variable suspension system (that works well and is tuned to work with the KDSS and EMRAS) for the components you posted (in my opinion) doesn't seem to be what anyone who bought a luxury SUV would want to do.
Good luck with your mod intentions and please keep us posted as to the results.
PS - What is AHC?
Koz
As far as removing a (very expensive and elaborate) computer controlled active variable suspension system (that works well and is tuned to work with the KDSS and EMRAS) for the components you posted (in my opinion) doesn't seem to be what anyone who bought a luxury SUV would want to do.
Good luck with your mod intentions and please keep us posted as to the results.
PS - What is AHC?
Koz
I know lifting a vehicle isn't going to improve its ride. But installing a high end shock will - whether you lift it or not.
I don't have all fancy electronic suspension components you mentioned. I do, however, have KDSS*. Every 460 has it. KDSS is summed up very easily. The system allows your swaybars to "adjust" to allow more wheel travel during offroad driving only. This system isn't connected to you shocks and isn't active or engaged when driving around town. Or you can read about it here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic...pension_System)
I have no idea what EMRAS is. When I google "EMRAS Lexus" I find an only 1 person using that terminolgy, you Koz. An old thread from this site (https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=533519) with you referencing EMRAS and auto leveling rear air suspension. But when I Google "AHC Toyota" there are tons of results describing Toyota's "Active Height Control". Here is a good video to watch, it describes the functions of your suspension http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uynhbaiKDqQ.
I think you were getting these recommendations because of the mods you are interested in. Basically these mods are typically used for off-roading. If off-roading is your intention I highly recommend getting skid plates and taking off the running boards, not to mention appropriate tires. Again good luck!!
Koz
Koz
10-17-11, 11:57 AM
#12
But the purpose of my post was to let people know there are options out there if they are interested in improving your driving experience. Especially since the "Constant Shaking" thread is our most active.
I don't have all fancy electronic suspension components you mentioned. I do, however, have KDSS*. Every 460 has it. KDSS is summed up very easily. The system allows your swaybars to "adjust" to allow more wheel travel during offroad driving only. This system isn't connected to you shocks and isn't active or engaged when driving around town. Or you can read about it here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic...pension_System)
I have no idea what EMRAS is. When I google "EMRAS Lexus" I find an only 1 person using that terminolgy, you Koz.
I don't have all fancy electronic suspension components you mentioned. I do, however, have KDSS*. Every 460 has it. KDSS is summed up very easily. The system allows your swaybars to "adjust" to allow more wheel travel during offroad driving only. This system isn't connected to you shocks and isn't active or engaged when driving around town. Or you can read about it here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic...pension_System)
I have no idea what EMRAS is. When I google "EMRAS Lexus" I find an only 1 person using that terminolgy, you Koz.
KDSS has just as much effect on-road as off-road, if not more. It almost eliminates leaning/sway on-road (especially at highway speeds).
Since the rear air susp on the 460 is different (the electronic control) from what was on the 4Runner I simply used an acronym from the Lexus name. EMRAS - Electronically Modulated Rear Air Suspension.
Koz
10-17-11, 12:53 PM
#13
Coilovers are the best dampening system/component there is but I don't think they would help or have any affect with front end shaking/vibration.
KDSS has just as much effect on-road as off-road, if not more. It almost eliminates leaning/sway on-road (especially at highway speeds).
Since the rear air susp on the 460 is different (the electronic control) from what was on the 4Runner I simply used an acronym from the Lexus name. EMRAS - Electronically Modulated Rear Air Suspension.
Koz
KDSS has just as much effect on-road as off-road, if not more. It almost eliminates leaning/sway on-road (especially at highway speeds).
Since the rear air susp on the 460 is different (the electronic control) from what was on the 4Runner I simply used an acronym from the Lexus name. EMRAS - Electronically Modulated Rear Air Suspension.
Koz
You didn't read the link I posted did you Koz? Your sway bar itself is what limits the sway of the vehicle, not KDSS. KDSS is the technology that allows more wheel travel or flex out of the suspension while off road and still have a sway bar. KDSS does not engage while on road. It engages when it senses a wheel drop and allows it to drop more, simulating an omitted sway bar.
AHC is the same system in the Land Cruiser / LX 570 / GX 460 / Prado 150 Kakadu. I'm not sure about the 4 Runner but would assume Mr T would use the same system and not design a completely different system for only the top trim level. Especially since the 4 runner is primarily for the North American market and the Prado is for the rest of the world.
Last edited by ShawShank; 10-17-11 at 01:50 PM.
10-17-11, 02:45 PM
#14
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10-17-11, 03:16 PM
#15
some more....
http://www.lexus.com/models/GX/featu...on_system.html
So have I learned something here? I fear my stubbornness might be clouding my rationale. A sway bar helps eliminate pitch and body roll, always. But with KDSS you have a sway bar that allows for more articulation when called upon. My rationale is this, if I had a vehicle with sway bars and without KDSS, the sway bars would help eliminate pitch and roll on road. But off road, that same sway bar, limits the amount of wheel articulation. KDSS is the best of both worlds. KDSS is the system that allows more flex and isn't using it's technology when simply driving down the road. The sway bar is "working" then.
This is an off road feature. But KOZ nailed it on the head - most people aren't concerned about a $55k SUV's off road prowess. How else do you sell an off road feature to a bunch of people who don't care? Tell them it works on road too!
http://www.lexus.com/models/GX/featu...on_system.html
So have I learned something here? I fear my stubbornness might be clouding my rationale. A sway bar helps eliminate pitch and body roll, always. But with KDSS you have a sway bar that allows for more articulation when called upon. My rationale is this, if I had a vehicle with sway bars and without KDSS, the sway bars would help eliminate pitch and roll on road. But off road, that same sway bar, limits the amount of wheel articulation. KDSS is the best of both worlds. KDSS is the system that allows more flex and isn't using it's technology when simply driving down the road. The sway bar is "working" then.
This is an off road feature. But KOZ nailed it on the head - most people aren't concerned about a $55k SUV's off road prowess. How else do you sell an off road feature to a bunch of people who don't care? Tell them it works on road too!
