Official GS-F discussion
08-20-11, 12:54 PM
#31
They can have a hybrid that does 0 to 60 in 2.3 seconds, I still do not want it.
I don’t care about lap times, I don’t care about super low 0 to 60’s, don’t care about racing on the street let alone in a sedan.
It’s about the driving experience to me, and that part is most enjoyable with a reasonably high powered, amazing sounding v8-v10-v12.
For many auto enthusiasts they enjoy the sound, mechanics and raw power of a gasoline engine, I don’t see that fading anytime soon.
Bring on the GS-F
I don’t care about lap times, I don’t care about super low 0 to 60’s, don’t care about racing on the street let alone in a sedan.
It’s about the driving experience to me, and that part is most enjoyable with a reasonably high powered, amazing sounding v8-v10-v12.
For many auto enthusiasts they enjoy the sound, mechanics and raw power of a gasoline engine, I don’t see that fading anytime soon.
Bring on the GS-F
Hybrid is not different from having an electric turbo.
08-20-11, 01:24 PM
#32
Many BMW M5 enthusiast ( at least here in Europe ) are not to happy at all with the switch from a high-rpm V10 to this "boring" 6000 rpm V8. It was the same with M3, not too many prefers the V8 over the former high-rpm straight six. Thats for sure.
If Lexus makes a high-rpm V10 and the car handles like a M or AMG then both BMW and AMG drivers are going to buy the GSF.
If Lexus makes a high-rpm V10 and the car handles like a M or AMG then both BMW and AMG drivers are going to buy the GSF.
The BMW guys can say what they want on the forum, but I just read a test on the CLS/AMG. 1/4 mile was 12.0 at 122. the M5 will be at least as fast. They'll still buy them.
08-20-11, 01:45 PM
#33
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If the 2013 GS350 has the same price as the 2011 model ($46,900); than I'm predicting a starting price for the GSF to be at $71,620.
I'm guessing that the 4GS will have a higher starting price; so expect the GSF to be starting at $72,000 minimum.
I'm guessing that the 4GS will have a higher starting price; so expect the GSF to be starting at $72,000 minimum.
08-20-11, 02:27 PM
#35
A very similar pattern is continuing again, anytime Lexus has a new idea most of the forum wants to shut it down and go back to tried and true like the competitors. We all know Lexus has their own way of doing things, may not be all that bad to look at the big picture as well.
They shocked the world with the GS450h high performance hybrid and they can do it again if they choose to do a GS-Fh.
From what we know in the two articles posted in here now, a v10 is likely, Lexus will blow us away, they tend to do that. Look how everybody responded to the leaked 2013 GS pictures and then how the Pebble Beach response was, most people here have zero faith in Lexus' ability to produce a good product. Its kind of sad.
08-20-11, 02:37 PM
#36
If they make it too exotic - which will equal too expensive, the car won't sell. Lexus just doesn't have a following to sell a 80-90k performance sedan. Think about it - where would the buyers come from? BMW and M-B drivers are not going to make the switch. They will be looking for buyers to move up from a current Lexus. How many people today can afford a 50k GS and next year a 80K car?
The reality is that in order for it to sell it will have to be priced under $70k. In my mind, that gets something like the current IS-F. That uses current V8 engine MAYBE upgraded a little.
Now, that doesn't mean they wont try for something more grandiose but I can't see how it would sell. They have to overcome two things. One is that Lexus is all new to the game (I don't consider the IS-F a factor). And the times they are a changing. M5's and AMG's still sell because the really rich folks will always be out there and will always be really rich. But they are not Lexus customers - at least not in the performance world.
The reality is that in order for it to sell it will have to be priced under $70k. In my mind, that gets something like the current IS-F. That uses current V8 engine MAYBE upgraded a little.
Now, that doesn't mean they wont try for something more grandiose but I can't see how it would sell. They have to overcome two things. One is that Lexus is all new to the game (I don't consider the IS-F a factor). And the times they are a changing. M5's and AMG's still sell because the really rich folks will always be out there and will always be really rich. But they are not Lexus customers - at least not in the performance world.
The difference between spending $50k and $80k on a car is very little. The usual demographic for buying $50k-$100k cars = high net worth individuals (liquid assets of $1M+) making approximately $200,000/year or more.
People who push into the $100k-$120k range tend to have higher disposable income. For example, the median income for LS600hL buyers is $400,000/year.
Porsche 911 ($95K+ with options even for the base model) owners boast a median income of about $375,000/year.
And really, $80,000 for a GS-F that adequately competes with the M5 is absolutely phenomenal. That's very reasonable pricing for a ~500HP GS-F.
08-20-11, 02:43 PM
#37
And this notion that "really rich" customers are not Lexus customers is absurd. Every objective bit of data that's available points to the opposite conclusion.
Wealthy individuals consider Lexus to be among the most prestigious of car brands -
"The proprietary Luxury Brand Status Index (LBSI) survey is the only measure of the prestige of leading brands among wealthy Americans. A national sample of 1,642 wealthy American consumers, with an average income of $349K and average net-worth of $3.7 million, was surveyed online. Survey results are weighted to match demographic and net worth profiles of the same audience according to the latest Survey of Consumer Finances from The Federal Reserve.
May 7, 2008 -- High net-worth consumers rated Porsche the most prestigious luxury automobile in the 2008 Luxury Brand Status Index (LBSI). Respondents who would recommend Porsche say, "They are world-class sports cars for the true connoisseur," and, "They have a good reputation for performance." Lexus and Mercedes ranked second and third respectively."
People with multimillion dollar average net worths and near middle six figure incomes ranked Lexus as the 2nd most prestigious brand, second only to Porsche.
But maybe you were talking about really rich people with net worths of $25M+ and average 7 figure incomes. I don't know. You'll have to define what you mean by "really rich."
Wealthy individuals consider Lexus to be among the most prestigious of car brands -
"The proprietary Luxury Brand Status Index (LBSI) survey is the only measure of the prestige of leading brands among wealthy Americans. A national sample of 1,642 wealthy American consumers, with an average income of $349K and average net-worth of $3.7 million, was surveyed online. Survey results are weighted to match demographic and net worth profiles of the same audience according to the latest Survey of Consumer Finances from The Federal Reserve.
May 7, 2008 -- High net-worth consumers rated Porsche the most prestigious luxury automobile in the 2008 Luxury Brand Status Index (LBSI). Respondents who would recommend Porsche say, "They are world-class sports cars for the true connoisseur," and, "They have a good reputation for performance." Lexus and Mercedes ranked second and third respectively."
People with multimillion dollar average net worths and near middle six figure incomes ranked Lexus as the 2nd most prestigious brand, second only to Porsche.
But maybe you were talking about really rich people with net worths of $25M+ and average 7 figure incomes. I don't know. You'll have to define what you mean by "really rich."
08-20-11, 06:28 PM
#41
Also, please note that there's an entirely separate category for ultra high net worth luxury vehicles like Rolls Royce or Maybach. It's interesting because they ask both high net worth individuals (most of whom cannot afford these cars) and ultra high net worth individuals (most of whom can comfortably afford these cars), and the results are different.
For 2011, high net worth individuals with median incomes of $200,000+ ranked the most prestigious ultra luxury autos as follows:
1. Maybach
2. Bentley
3. Bugatti Veyron
But, ultra high net worth individuals ("with weighted average household income of $845,000 and average investable assets of $16.6 million...") saw things slightly differently -
1. Rolls Royce
2. Bentley
3. Maybach
HNWI (Liquid assets $1M-$5M) seemed to overrate the prestige of Maybach and Bugatti. UHNWI (people who can actually afford these cars) saw Maybach as extremely prestigious, but not the most prestigious ultra luxury auto.
08-20-11, 07:04 PM
#42
to me a derivative of the v10, possible.
I don’t care about lap times, I don’t care about super low 0 to 60’s, don’t care about racing on the street let alone in a sedan.
It’s about the driving experience to me, and that part is most enjoyable with a reasonably high powered, amazing sounding v8-v10-v12.
For many auto enthusiasts they enjoy the sound, mechanics and raw power of a gasoline engine, I don’t see that fading anytime soon.
Bring on the GS-F
It’s about the driving experience to me, and that part is most enjoyable with a reasonably high powered, amazing sounding v8-v10-v12.
For many auto enthusiasts they enjoy the sound, mechanics and raw power of a gasoline engine, I don’t see that fading anytime soon.
Bring on the GS-F
the others? it's about the experience, the sound, that feeling
Many BMW M5 enthusiast ( at least here in Europe ) are not to happy at all with the switch from a high-rpm V10 to this "boring" 6000 rpm V8. It was the same with M3, not too many prefers the V8 over the former high-rpm straight six. Thats for sure.
If Lexus makes a high-rpm V10 and the car handles like a M or AMG then both BMW and AMG drivers are going to buy the GSF.
If Lexus makes a high-rpm V10 and the car handles like a M or AMG then both BMW and AMG drivers are going to buy the GSF.
but of course, i am with you, i am disappointed about non-NA m3/5
number game again. tq values on paper doesn't mean much. the lfa puts down great amount of tq. almost all high rev engines, due to design, have small tq numbers. formula 1 cars, the tq number is very disappointing on paper, but the car goes like crazy.
08-20-11, 07:24 PM
#43
Lots of people.
The difference between spending $50k and $80k on a car is very little. The usual demographic for buying $50k-$100k cars = high net worth individuals (liquid assets of $1M+) making approximately $200,000/year or more.
People who push into the $100k-$120k range tend to have higher disposable income. For example, the median income for LS600hL buyers is $400,000/year.
Porsche 911 ($95K+ with options even for the base model) owners boast a median income of about $375,000/year.
And really, $80,000 for a GS-F that adequately competes with the M5 is absolutely phenomenal. That's very reasonable pricing for a ~500HP GS-F.
The difference between spending $50k and $80k on a car is very little. The usual demographic for buying $50k-$100k cars = high net worth individuals (liquid assets of $1M+) making approximately $200,000/year or more.
People who push into the $100k-$120k range tend to have higher disposable income. For example, the median income for LS600hL buyers is $400,000/year.
Porsche 911 ($95K+ with options even for the base model) owners boast a median income of about $375,000/year.
And really, $80,000 for a GS-F that adequately competes with the M5 is absolutely phenomenal. That's very reasonable pricing for a ~500HP GS-F.
And this notion that "really rich" customers are not Lexus customers is absurd. Every objective bit of data that's available points to the opposite conclusion.
Wealthy individuals consider Lexus to be among the most prestigious of car brands -
"The proprietary Luxury Brand Status Index (LBSI) survey is the only measure of the prestige of leading brands among wealthy Americans. A national sample of 1,642 wealthy American consumers, with an average income of $349K and average net-worth of $3.7 million, was surveyed online. Survey results are weighted to match demographic and net worth profiles of the same audience according to the latest Survey of Consumer Finances from The Federal Reserve.
May 7, 2008 -- High net-worth consumers rated Porsche the most prestigious luxury automobile in the 2008 Luxury Brand Status Index (LBSI). Respondents who would recommend Porsche say, "They are world-class sports cars for the true connoisseur," and, "They have a good reputation for performance." Lexus and Mercedes ranked second and third respectively."
People with multimillion dollar average net worths and near middle six figure incomes ranked Lexus as the 2nd most prestigious brand, second only to Porsche.
But maybe you were talking about really rich people with net worths of $25M+ and average 7 figure incomes. I don't know. You'll have to define what you mean by "really rich."
Wealthy individuals consider Lexus to be among the most prestigious of car brands -
"The proprietary Luxury Brand Status Index (LBSI) survey is the only measure of the prestige of leading brands among wealthy Americans. A national sample of 1,642 wealthy American consumers, with an average income of $349K and average net-worth of $3.7 million, was surveyed online. Survey results are weighted to match demographic and net worth profiles of the same audience according to the latest Survey of Consumer Finances from The Federal Reserve.
May 7, 2008 -- High net-worth consumers rated Porsche the most prestigious luxury automobile in the 2008 Luxury Brand Status Index (LBSI). Respondents who would recommend Porsche say, "They are world-class sports cars for the true connoisseur," and, "They have a good reputation for performance." Lexus and Mercedes ranked second and third respectively."
People with multimillion dollar average net worths and near middle six figure incomes ranked Lexus as the 2nd most prestigious brand, second only to Porsche.
But maybe you were talking about really rich people with net worths of $25M+ and average 7 figure incomes. I don't know. You'll have to define what you mean by "really rich."
I didn't mean to imply that really rich folks don't drive Lexus. Sorry if I worded that wrong. If you re-read what I said, I was saying that the rich folks who want a high performance $80+ sedan are already driving an M-B or BMW. My point was, were are the $80K "F" buyers going to come from. So that is my question to ya'll. Who do you think is going to buy it, what are they coming out of, and what would they buy if the "F" didn't exist?
From a marketing standpoint, those are the questions that Lexus has to answer to make a business case for the car, and they have to figure out how to target them.
08-20-11, 07:48 PM
#44
I think ya'll took my comments out of context. What I don't think is that the really rich folks who are driving BMW Ms and AMG's are going to step down to a Lexus "F". On the other hand, I don't think that current GS350 drivers are going to suddenly decide to buy a GS-F for $80k, or whatever. If they wanted an $80k performance sedan they would already be driving one, and not likely a Lexus.
I didn't mean to imply that really rich folks don't drive Lexus. Sorry if I worded that wrong. If you re-read what I said, I was saying that the rich folks who want a high performance $80+ sedan are already driving an M-B or BMW. My point was, were are the $80K "F" buyers going to come from. So that is my question to ya'll. Who do you think is going to buy it, what are they coming out of, and what would they buy if the "F" didn't exist?
From a marketing standpoint, those are the questions that Lexus has to answer to make a business case for the car, and they have to figure out how to target them.
I didn't mean to imply that really rich folks don't drive Lexus. Sorry if I worded that wrong. If you re-read what I said, I was saying that the rich folks who want a high performance $80+ sedan are already driving an M-B or BMW. My point was, were are the $80K "F" buyers going to come from. So that is my question to ya'll. Who do you think is going to buy it, what are they coming out of, and what would they buy if the "F" didn't exist?
From a marketing standpoint, those are the questions that Lexus has to answer to make a business case for the car, and they have to figure out how to target them.
You think all ISF buyers were from nowhere? Some came from AMG, some came from M, some were just Lexus buyers looking for a more thrilling experience.
Saying that Lexus can't command high performance buyers is a unbacked statement. There is a reason why they roll out so hard with the F brand, from a marketing standpoint, I'm sure Lexus knows what they are doing.
Last edited by G Star; 08-20-11 at 08:01 PM.
08-20-11, 07:56 PM
#45
If they make a proper car, and reasonably priced the buyers will show up. Of course there will always be those that will never switch to Lexus, no matter what Lexus will offer. But there are millions of other drivers that like to try something new, exciting. It all of course depends on what the Lexus will bring to the table