Motor Trend GS430/M45 Face Off
03-31-05, 05:59 PM
#16
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Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
IF you're looking at it from a performance POV, than yes, the M was the winner.
OVERALL ... the M IS NOT the clear victor. Please people, try and understand that.
Even in the article itself, it did not clearly lay the M as the victor ... so stop making assumptions. They just said that the GS is a great car for some people, while the M is great as a "driver's car".
EDIT: yes ... they did have some bad things to say about the M ... namely getting used to the dash ... and the lack of elegance in the car's design.
OVERALL ... the M IS NOT the clear victor. Please people, try and understand that.
Even in the article itself, it did not clearly lay the M as the victor ... so stop making assumptions. They just said that the GS is a great car for some people, while the M is great as a "driver's car".
EDIT: yes ... they did have some bad things to say about the M ... namely getting used to the dash ... and the lack of elegance in the car's design.
There was no winner in that there was no first and second place ranking.
But they clearly liked the M better
03-31-05, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by genearch
I wonder why none of the M reviewers have taken issue with the LDWS? (Lane Departure warning system)
I've read more than one complaint from owners about this little "feature".
I've read more than one complaint from owners about this little "feature".
It is nice to have, however, and I'm glad it's there.
03-31-05, 07:11 PM
#18
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Originally Posted by magneto112
http://www.ideashift.com/transfer/M/...GAIN/proof.pdf
Adobe Acrobat Reader Format. MIght have to enlarge because its a little to small.
Rumor has it that the editor for CAR magazine is now working for MotorTrend. Hopefully MotorTrend can improve their stories in the near future.
Adobe Acrobat Reader Format. MIght have to enlarge because its a little to small.
Rumor has it that the editor for CAR magazine is now working for MotorTrend. Hopefully MotorTrend can improve their stories in the near future.
[url]http://ww.ideashift.com/transfer /M/RULES/GS/SUCKS/AGAIN/proof.pdf
So, its real funny some of you try to bash people here for being pro-lexus but look at your own people, real classy.
And if anyone ACTUALLY READ the final paragragh, usually called a "summary", they didn't pick a winner but stated the cars appeal to different desires.
03-31-05, 07:56 PM
#20
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Originally Posted by LexusChris
After looking at the article it doesn't seem to be a real comparison test to me. To me though the GS 430 would be the one I take home... 
and for those that want more sport, the M45 is a great choice. Its great that both are getting great press. I didn't see it as one beating the other. I saw the article as 2 brand new state of the art sport sedan interpretations from Japan.
03-31-05, 10:49 PM
#21
Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
Excellent Review. They discuss the cars for exactly what they are. No bias, no beating around the bush. I am happy they discussed why the GS is better than the M, and discussed specifically that the Lexus brand is diverging from the approach of Infiniti. They talked about the attention to detail on the GS, which is what Lexus is all about.
It was also refreshing to hear them praise the GS design, and favour it over the M.
Several times, they mentioned that the GS has hidden potential just waiting to be unlocked, but VDIM keeps the GS on a leash, so to speak. This is what I've been saying all along ... that the GS has the ability to perform on relatively the same level as the M45, but Lexus kept the GS performance on a leash in return for better safety, and weather performance. Not one review has mentioned weather performance, and the GS certainly beats the M45 in bad weather. With that in mind, the GS also beats the M in safety; I don' think anyone will want to argue against that. As I have said before, if Lexus offers the ability to tone down VDIM, or to turn it off, the GS will show it's true potential. I'm also curious if they tested the GS in ECT Power and Sport Mode, because those 0 - 60 numbers seem sketchy to me.
With the M, I'm surprised they didn't say anything about the red coloured gauges, instead saying they looked "rich". I guess it's subjective. They said that with the M, you feel more of the road, and it feels more like a "conventional" car. Rightly so ... the way I look at it ... the M is almost a muscle car ... not saying it doesn't have luxury ... but it leans more on the side of sports. The GS is as luxury as you can really get in the segment, and it is just aimed to be smooth, quiet, yet powerful. Lexus cars feel and drive in a unique fashion, in that, you almost forget you're driving a car. I am in a minority here, and I am very young, but that's what I love about Lexus. I love the fact that the cars are almost "dream like", almost spooky in their unmatched comfort, reliability, and isolation.
The M45 is a more traditional powerful sedan, that appeals to many power hungry enthusiasts, and is a "drivers" car so to speak ... ironic in that you won't be able to experience the car unless you take it out on the track. The GS is more mysterious, pushes Lexus qualities to new levels, has tiny details and little things which always take some time to discover. The GS embodies a very deep soulful japanese essence to it, which most people seem to not appreciate or understand.
The M can win all the comparisons it wants ... but it will never have the essence, the piece of mind that the Lexus brings. To me, that is priceless
and I don't want to beat a dead horse ... but Lexus is stirring things up by offering more new features and options than before on their cars ... next year we get the GS460 and 450h ... both of which should outperform the M ....and we will probably get more options on the GS.
EDIT: I forgot the most important part ... they seem to have not really chosen a victor, rather they have shown the M is a better drivers car, while the GS is for those who want the luxury, smoothness, being pampered, and the attention to detail ... a sports sedan that provides a surreal experience in other words. Different strokes for different folks ... although in the same market, the GS and M appeal to different people, and I am glad that Motor Trend did not declare an outright victor.
It was also refreshing to hear them praise the GS design, and favour it over the M.
Several times, they mentioned that the GS has hidden potential just waiting to be unlocked, but VDIM keeps the GS on a leash, so to speak. This is what I've been saying all along ... that the GS has the ability to perform on relatively the same level as the M45, but Lexus kept the GS performance on a leash in return for better safety, and weather performance. Not one review has mentioned weather performance, and the GS certainly beats the M45 in bad weather. With that in mind, the GS also beats the M in safety; I don' think anyone will want to argue against that. As I have said before, if Lexus offers the ability to tone down VDIM, or to turn it off, the GS will show it's true potential. I'm also curious if they tested the GS in ECT Power and Sport Mode, because those 0 - 60 numbers seem sketchy to me.
With the M, I'm surprised they didn't say anything about the red coloured gauges, instead saying they looked "rich". I guess it's subjective. They said that with the M, you feel more of the road, and it feels more like a "conventional" car. Rightly so ... the way I look at it ... the M is almost a muscle car ... not saying it doesn't have luxury ... but it leans more on the side of sports. The GS is as luxury as you can really get in the segment, and it is just aimed to be smooth, quiet, yet powerful. Lexus cars feel and drive in a unique fashion, in that, you almost forget you're driving a car. I am in a minority here, and I am very young, but that's what I love about Lexus. I love the fact that the cars are almost "dream like", almost spooky in their unmatched comfort, reliability, and isolation.
The M45 is a more traditional powerful sedan, that appeals to many power hungry enthusiasts, and is a "drivers" car so to speak ... ironic in that you won't be able to experience the car unless you take it out on the track. The GS is more mysterious, pushes Lexus qualities to new levels, has tiny details and little things which always take some time to discover. The GS embodies a very deep soulful japanese essence to it, which most people seem to not appreciate or understand.
The M can win all the comparisons it wants ... but it will never have the essence, the piece of mind that the Lexus brings. To me, that is priceless
and I don't want to beat a dead horse ... but Lexus is stirring things up by offering more new features and options than before on their cars ... next year we get the GS460 and 450h ... both of which should outperform the M ....and we will probably get more options on the GS.
EDIT: I forgot the most important part
... they seem to have not really chosen a victor, rather they have shown the M is a better drivers car, while the GS is for those who want the luxury, smoothness, being pampered, and the attention to detail ... a sports sedan that provides a surreal experience in other words. Different strokes for different folks ... although in the same market, the GS and M appeal to different people, and I am glad that Motor Trend did not declare an outright victor.I don't ever like to push my car much past 80% of its limit. People who do increase the risk of ending up as a "statistic" in time - or turning someone else into one. So the fact that VDIM and all of the other GS electronics keep the car from going beyond the limits is just fine by me. Maybe it doesn't make for good car rag print - and doesn't make for good commercials because you can't go sliding through the desert with sand flying everywhere, but that is fine by me.
Others have written and suggested that the GS isn't really a performace car - or have made statements that try to diminish it as a performance car - or relegate it to "luxury" car. The fact that other cars can beat the GS by a few ticks here or there doesn't mean that it isn't a "driver's" car. Any car can be compared to another car - and then it can be compared to an absolute standard of practical and safe utility. How can anyone complain about a car that can hit sub a 6 second 60?!? After the Muscle Car Era it wasn't until the mid 80's that cars started breaking the 8 second 60! And most cars today blow away the production cars of the 60's in nearly every respect.
I think that 2 tests more accurately reflect the real world usage of a car: the slalom and 45-65mph passing. The slalom simulates making an evasive maneuver. In this article and also the Inside Line test the GS and the M had almost identical slalom times. A lot of things get measured in the slalom: tires, steering, suspension, VDIM, etc. If the M is such a better performance machine why doesn't that translate into better slalom figures? The 45-65 passing test captures how well the car can get around a slower vehicle. In this test the M and the GS were almost identical. As I have said on other posts - I am disappointed that the braking performance (as measured in the mag tests) isn't better in the GS. This relates to safety and I don't provide Lexus with any room for excuses on this one. I hope that this is something that gets addressed by Lexus.
Knowing that I can take someone by 0.3 in the quarter mile doesn't motivate me. But knowing that I have a car that is exquisite in comfort, capable in performance and watching out for my safety provides a tremendous sense of satisfaction for me. I find it irritating when people want to elevate raw performance over all other qualities. I like seeing the test numbers and evaluations of how the cars work but then there is this crazy need to proclaim a winner. It is kind of like saying which is the better flavor, vanilla or chocolate? Can there be one right answer?
I just took my GS300 on a 600 mile trip with a lot of mountain roads. The car handled just great on the switchbacks. And I felt bathed in Luxury while doing so. On the rual 4 lane roads, where I was the only car on the road I found myself pushing 120 at times and the car felt like it was gliding on glass. I arrived feeling refreshed and I was glad that I decided to get the GS.
One more thought: I have been able to consistently exceed 32 MPG on highway drives while maintaining 85-95 MPH. This is another thing that I love about the GS300.
03-31-05, 10:54 PM
#22
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Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
IF you're looking at it from a performance POV, than yes, the M was the winner.
OVERALL ... the M IS NOT the clear victor. Please people, try and understand that.
Even in the article itself, it did not clearly lay the M as the victor ... so stop making assumptions. They just said that the GS is a great car for some people, while the M is great as a "driver's car".
EDIT: yes ... they did have some bad things to say about the M ... namely getting used to the dash ... and the lack of elegance in the car's design.
OVERALL ... the M IS NOT the clear victor. Please people, try and understand that.
Even in the article itself, it did not clearly lay the M as the victor ... so stop making assumptions. They just said that the GS is a great car for some people, while the M is great as a "driver's car".
EDIT: yes ... they did have some bad things to say about the M ... namely getting used to the dash ... and the lack of elegance in the car's design.
03-31-05, 11:05 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by Sandman
TRDFantasy - I agree with much of what you have said. Thanks for your post. Safety gets overlooked too often. If I had to be in a wreck I know which car I'd rather be in. Knee airbags for both passengers is a big plus.
I don't ever like to push my car much past 80% of its limit. People who do increase the risk of ending up as a "statistic" in time - or turning someone else into one. So the fact that VDIM and all of the other GS electronics keep the car from going beyond the limits is just fine by me. Maybe it doesn't make for good car rag print - and doesn't make for good commercials because you can't go sliding through the desert with sand flying everywhere, but that is fine by me.
Others have written and suggested that the GS isn't really a performace car - or have made statements that try to diminish it as a performance car - or relegate it to "luxury" car. The fact that other cars can beat the GS by a few ticks here or there doesn't mean that it isn't a "driver's" car. Any car can be compared to another car - and then it can be compared to an absolute standard of practical and safe utility. How can anyone complain about a car that can hit sub a 6 second 60?!? After the Muscle Car Era it wasn't until the mid 80's that cars started breaking the 8 second 60! And most cars today blow away the production cars of the 60's in nearly every respect.
I think that 2 tests more accurately reflect the real world usage of a car: the slalom and 45-65mph passing. The slalom simulates making an evasive maneuver. In this article and also the Inside Line test the GS and the M had almost identical slalom times. A lot of things get measured in the slalom: tires, steering, suspension, VDIM, etc. If the M is such a better performance machine why doesn't that translate into better slalom figures? The 45-65 passing test captures how well the car can get around a slower vehicle. In this test the M and the GS were almost identical. As I have said on other posts - I am disappointed that the braking performance (as measured in the mag tests) isn't better in the GS. This relates to safety and I don't provide Lexus with any room for excuses on this one. I hope that this is something that gets addressed by Lexus.
Knowing that I can take someone by 0.3 in the quarter mile doesn't motivate me. But knowing that I have a car that is exquisite in comfort, capable in performance and watching out for my safety provides a tremendous sense of satisfaction for me. I find it irritating when people want to elevate raw performance over all other qualities. I like seeing the test numbers and evaluations of how the cars work but then there is this crazy need to proclaim a winner. It is kind of like saying which is the better flavor, vanilla or chocolate? Can there be one right answer?
I just took my GS300 on a 600 mile trip with a lot of mountain roads. The car handled just great on the switchbacks. And I felt bathed in Luxury while doing so. On the rual 4 lane roads, where I was the only car on the road I found myself pushing 120 at times and the car felt like it was gliding on glass. I arrived feeling refreshed and I was glad that I decided to get the GS.
One more thought: I have been able to consistently exceed 32 MPG on highway drives while maintaining 85-95 MPH. This is another thing that I love about the GS300.
I don't ever like to push my car much past 80% of its limit. People who do increase the risk of ending up as a "statistic" in time - or turning someone else into one. So the fact that VDIM and all of the other GS electronics keep the car from going beyond the limits is just fine by me. Maybe it doesn't make for good car rag print - and doesn't make for good commercials because you can't go sliding through the desert with sand flying everywhere, but that is fine by me.
Others have written and suggested that the GS isn't really a performace car - or have made statements that try to diminish it as a performance car - or relegate it to "luxury" car. The fact that other cars can beat the GS by a few ticks here or there doesn't mean that it isn't a "driver's" car. Any car can be compared to another car - and then it can be compared to an absolute standard of practical and safe utility. How can anyone complain about a car that can hit sub a 6 second 60?!? After the Muscle Car Era it wasn't until the mid 80's that cars started breaking the 8 second 60! And most cars today blow away the production cars of the 60's in nearly every respect.
I think that 2 tests more accurately reflect the real world usage of a car: the slalom and 45-65mph passing. The slalom simulates making an evasive maneuver. In this article and also the Inside Line test the GS and the M had almost identical slalom times. A lot of things get measured in the slalom: tires, steering, suspension, VDIM, etc. If the M is such a better performance machine why doesn't that translate into better slalom figures? The 45-65 passing test captures how well the car can get around a slower vehicle. In this test the M and the GS were almost identical. As I have said on other posts - I am disappointed that the braking performance (as measured in the mag tests) isn't better in the GS. This relates to safety and I don't provide Lexus with any room for excuses on this one. I hope that this is something that gets addressed by Lexus.
Knowing that I can take someone by 0.3 in the quarter mile doesn't motivate me. But knowing that I have a car that is exquisite in comfort, capable in performance and watching out for my safety provides a tremendous sense of satisfaction for me. I find it irritating when people want to elevate raw performance over all other qualities. I like seeing the test numbers and evaluations of how the cars work but then there is this crazy need to proclaim a winner. It is kind of like saying which is the better flavor, vanilla or chocolate? Can there be one right answer?
I just took my GS300 on a 600 mile trip with a lot of mountain roads. The car handled just great on the switchbacks. And I felt bathed in Luxury while doing so. On the rual 4 lane roads, where I was the only car on the road I found myself pushing 120 at times and the car felt like it was gliding on glass. I arrived feeling refreshed and I was glad that I decided to get the GS.
One more thought: I have been able to consistently exceed 32 MPG on highway drives while maintaining 85-95 MPH. This is another thing that I love about the GS300.
.If you want fun, then a GS300 RWD is a good choice, as it has neither AWD or VDIM. If I was in the market for a sport luxury mid size sedan .. hands down I would get a GS. The GS offers piece of mind. I know that I will be safe with VDIM, and even with the GS300, I know that it's a very good car ... having so many airbags ... and recently getting amazing results on the Euro NCAP. VDIM does a great job of keeping you away from accidents in the first place, but if you do happen to get into one, it's nice to know that the GS body is extremely strong.
With regards to the brakes ... I find it odd that the stopping distance has increase, even though the brakes are huge 13" rotors, and high friction pads. The brakes are apparently very grabby. I heard something that Lexus will try and improve the modulation on the braking system. Knowing Toyota, I do not doubt improvement. Plus, Lexus execs have stated that they want to offer improvements, features, and/or options every model year on new Lexus cars, emulating BMW. They want to move away from keeping the models stagnant every several years.
03-31-05, 11:13 PM
#24
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Thread Starter
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
I am not sure who the immature, pathetic, I.Q of a bottle of water that has been in the sun for 15 days fanboy is but the name of the link in FULL is;
[url]http://ww.ideashift.com/transfer /M/RULES/GS/SUCKS/AGAIN/proof.pdf
So, its real funny some of you try to bash people here for being pro-lexus but look at your own people, real classy.
And if anyone ACTUALLY READ the final paragragh, usually called a "summary", they didn't pick a winner but stated the cars appeal to different desires.
[url]http://ww.ideashift.com/transfer /M/RULES/GS/SUCKS/AGAIN/proof.pdf
So, its real funny some of you try to bash people here for being pro-lexus but look at your own people, real classy.
And if anyone ACTUALLY READ the final paragragh, usually called a "summary", they didn't pick a winner but stated the cars appeal to different desires.
WHOA WHOA.....easy there SICK, I linked it from another forum. You should know better than that. I would never deliberately bash Lex like that.
Personally I think that the review was pretty neutral. They pointed out the differences between each car(M45 more sport, and GS more Luxury and style).
Sorry for the confusion.
03-31-05, 11:16 PM
#25
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Originally Posted by Sandman
TRDFantasy - I agree with much of what you have said. Thanks for your post. Safety gets overlooked too often. If I had to be in a wreck I know which car I'd rather be in. Knee airbags for both passengers is a big plus.
I don't ever like to push my car much past 80% of its limit. People who do increase the risk of ending up as a "statistic" in time - or turning someone else into one. So the fact that VDIM and all of the other GS electronics keep the car from going beyond the limits is just fine by me. Maybe it doesn't make for good car rag print - and doesn't make for good commercials because you can't go sliding through the desert with sand flying everywhere, but that is fine by me.
Others have written and suggested that the GS isn't really a performace car - or have made statements that try to diminish it as a performance car - or relegate it to "luxury" car. The fact that other cars can beat the GS by a few ticks here or there doesn't mean that it isn't a "driver's" car. Any car can be compared to another car - and then it can be compared to an absolute standard of practical and safe utility. How can anyone complain about a car that can hit sub a 6 second 60?!? After the Muscle Car Era it wasn't until the mid 80's that cars started breaking the 8 second 60! And most cars today blow away the production cars of the 60's in nearly every respect.
I think that 2 tests more accurately reflect the real world usage of a car: the slalom and 45-65mph passing. The slalom simulates making an evasive maneuver. In this article and also the Inside Line test the GS and the M had almost identical slalom times. A lot of things get measured in the slalom: tires, steering, suspension, VDIM, etc. If the M is such a better performance machine why doesn't that translate into better slalom figures? The 45-65 passing test captures how well the car can get around a slower vehicle. In this test the M and the GS were almost identical. As I have said on other posts - I am disappointed that the braking performance (as measured in the mag tests) isn't better in the GS. This relates to safety and I don't provide Lexus with any room for excuses on this one. I hope that this is something that gets addressed by Lexus.
Knowing that I can take someone by 0.3 in the quarter mile doesn't motivate me. But knowing that I have a car that is exquisite in comfort, capable in performance and watching out for my safety provides a tremendous sense of satisfaction for me. I find it irritating when people want to elevate raw performance over all other qualities. I like seeing the test numbers and evaluations of how the cars work but then there is this crazy need to proclaim a winner. It is kind of like saying which is the better flavor, vanilla or chocolate? Can there be one right answer?
I just took my GS300 on a 600 mile trip with a lot of mountain roads. The car handled just great on the switchbacks. And I felt bathed in Luxury while doing so. On the rual 4 lane roads, where I was the only car on the road I found myself pushing 120 at times and the car felt like it was gliding on glass. I arrived feeling refreshed and I was glad that I decided to get the GS.
One more thought: I have been able to consistently exceed 32 MPG on highway drives while maintaining 85-95 MPH. This is another thing that I love about the GS300.
I don't ever like to push my car much past 80% of its limit. People who do increase the risk of ending up as a "statistic" in time - or turning someone else into one. So the fact that VDIM and all of the other GS electronics keep the car from going beyond the limits is just fine by me. Maybe it doesn't make for good car rag print - and doesn't make for good commercials because you can't go sliding through the desert with sand flying everywhere, but that is fine by me.
Others have written and suggested that the GS isn't really a performace car - or have made statements that try to diminish it as a performance car - or relegate it to "luxury" car. The fact that other cars can beat the GS by a few ticks here or there doesn't mean that it isn't a "driver's" car. Any car can be compared to another car - and then it can be compared to an absolute standard of practical and safe utility. How can anyone complain about a car that can hit sub a 6 second 60?!? After the Muscle Car Era it wasn't until the mid 80's that cars started breaking the 8 second 60! And most cars today blow away the production cars of the 60's in nearly every respect.
I think that 2 tests more accurately reflect the real world usage of a car: the slalom and 45-65mph passing. The slalom simulates making an evasive maneuver. In this article and also the Inside Line test the GS and the M had almost identical slalom times. A lot of things get measured in the slalom: tires, steering, suspension, VDIM, etc. If the M is such a better performance machine why doesn't that translate into better slalom figures? The 45-65 passing test captures how well the car can get around a slower vehicle. In this test the M and the GS were almost identical. As I have said on other posts - I am disappointed that the braking performance (as measured in the mag tests) isn't better in the GS. This relates to safety and I don't provide Lexus with any room for excuses on this one. I hope that this is something that gets addressed by Lexus.
Knowing that I can take someone by 0.3 in the quarter mile doesn't motivate me. But knowing that I have a car that is exquisite in comfort, capable in performance and watching out for my safety provides a tremendous sense of satisfaction for me. I find it irritating when people want to elevate raw performance over all other qualities. I like seeing the test numbers and evaluations of how the cars work but then there is this crazy need to proclaim a winner. It is kind of like saying which is the better flavor, vanilla or chocolate? Can there be one right answer?
I just took my GS300 on a 600 mile trip with a lot of mountain roads. The car handled just great on the switchbacks. And I felt bathed in Luxury while doing so. On the rual 4 lane roads, where I was the only car on the road I found myself pushing 120 at times and the car felt like it was gliding on glass. I arrived feeling refreshed and I was glad that I decided to get the GS.
One more thought: I have been able to consistently exceed 32 MPG on highway drives while maintaining 85-95 MPH. This is another thing that I love about the GS300.
That was beautiful. And the mags do pick the sportiest car (its what sells mags) and I said since last year, the M will win the comparos based on that. But as you stated, the GS is no slouch and to most people, you can't tell the difference. And again, most won't even push it to the 9/10th and at that point, why not a M3 or something with a manual?
Lexus/Toyota offers the all around apporach more than any other car maker. They're cars are made to be outstanding in all aspects, not something single minded. Gordan Murray, the man behind the Mclaren F-1 (and still considered by many experts to be greatest sports car ever) dismisses Bugatti and its silly attempt at numbers and to be the fastest (Verynon, 1001 hp, 250mph, 3 years delayed, $1 million dollars). Anyone can do that. Its about the overall balance of the car, which is why the F-1 is still incredible 10 years after initial production. With the GS, we know here, its a proven winner. If we here were concerned with only performance numbers, we all would be driving BMWs and this would be a BMW site.
Both are great cars, we've said this time and time again and we'll see how consumers respond. We have 30 registered owners in only a month, which is incredible considering people say' The GS is the non sporty car".
Really, there are no losers in this battle.
03-31-05, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by DrewSRX
Please show me where they specifically said that the M's design lacked elegance.
"The not-unattractive result could be described as a G35 sedan pumped to 120 percent"
I read it as being unattractive.
On a related note, they praised the GS for attention to detail ... for ambience .... more so than the M. They didn't say much about attention to detail in the M. I guess I related elegance with attention to detail, and the fact that they had to get used to the M dash.
03-31-05, 11:19 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by magneto112
WHOA WHOA.....easy there SICK, I linked it from another forum. You should know better than that. I would never deliberately bash Lex like that.
Personally I think that the review was pretty neutral. They pointed out the differences between each car(M45 more sport, and GS more Luxury and style).
Sorry for the confusion.
Personally I think that the review was pretty neutral. They pointed out the differences between each car(M45 more sport, and GS more Luxury and style).
Sorry for the confusion.
And I think it was a pretty decent review as well. Motor Trend Times are nuts though, they get 0-60 in 5.7 for the 2GS, its Import car of the year winner but 6.0 in a car with more torque, an additional gear? The M45 time is identical to the previous gen M45 time in that mag when it was compared against the Lincoln LS. Yet, the BMW 330 (the darling) the E90 just got a 5.5 or 5.6 run?
04-01-05, 08:29 AM
#28
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Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
It's ironic how most magazine reviews are not very practical or realistic. You rarely see topics like safety, little details (although kuods to MT for mentioning Lexus' attention to detail). They also rarely tell you about real world driving conditions. Mags are basically about performance. Many of the testers and writers do not bother looking at anything except performance.
Car magazines though are for ENTHUSIASTS, people who actually like cars, not just those who see it as a means to get from A to B.
Plus, seeing as how many Americans are power hungry when it comes to cars, they are maximizing sales by catering only to performance.
But that does not represent the entire population ...
04-02-05, 10:03 AM
#29
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Originally Posted by bitkahuna
If you want to read about safety, being practical, realistic and real world driving conditions, read a real sleep inducer like Consumer Reports. They love Camrys.
Car magazines though are for ENTHUSIASTS, people who actually like cars, not just those who see it as a means to get from A to B.
Car magazines though are for ENTHUSIASTS, people who actually like cars, not just those who see it as a means to get from A to B.
. I guess you never saw the part where the M and GS were practically the same on slalom times, and on passing times. How can the M be "superior" when the GS was just as fast in the slaloms?Several CL members have bought as well as test driven the gen 3 GS, and they all say it handles better, flatter, and is more precise than the Gen 2. They say road noise and isolation has a HUGE improvement over the Gen 2 GS. They also say the car is smoother than the Gen 2.I don't know about you, but I'd rather believe CL member test drives, than some guy at a car mag.
Yes, there are enthusiasts here on the forums ... but most of us are LEXUS enthusiasts, which means we're different than most enthusiasts. If you're all about sporty driving, or performance, then why be on these forums? Go and buy a Mustang or an AMG or a BMW M if Lexus doesn't suit you.
If safety, practicality, and realistic driving conditions are of no concern to you, then go buy your M. I'd like to see how "enthusiastic" you'll be if you ever get caught in bad weather, or forbid, happen to get into a dangerous situation. IMHO, just for that, I would gladly be in a GS than an M, knowing the GS has an incredibly strong body, and sophisticated safety systems, as proven with the amazing Euro NCAP results. Also, the GS has VDIM which does an amazing job of preventing from getting into those situations in the first place.
You must understand what Lexus is about; their cars are increasingly diverging from the competition into a more japanese POV. The cars have incredible isolation, and (I always love using this quote) "Lexus made a car that makes you forget you're driving a car". This was a review of an SC a while back.
Us enthusiasts are in the minority, and you can't expect Lexus to cater specifically to you. I love how Lexus stands for the whole package ... I love how the cars are so smooth you don't even feel the road or the speed. It's a surreal experience that to me, no other car brand offers. The GS has plenty of performance, incredible quality, isolation, and just a top notch interior. It has many incredible details in the car, which MT talked about by the way, which differentiates it from the M. The M is a great, sporty performance luxury sedan. But the GS is something more than that ... it has this ambiance, this atmosphere, this piece of mind that money can't buy.
This brings us to perception: with the GS being more isolated, and smoother than the M, car mags no doubt percieve the M to be more "sporty" based on ride harshness, and the fact that you can feel the road more than on the GS; less isolation in other words. The GS does in fact perform very closely to the M, just that the mags "perceive" the GS to be slower due to the surreal experience you get from driving it.
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
Just to clarify, are you saying not as large a percentage of Canadians are 'power hungry'?
The biggest sellers in the canadian market are compact cars, followed by family sedans and minivans. Canadian buyers are much more cost-conscious, and a lot of the higher end cars that people have are rarely bought; rather they are usually leased.
In the US, the biggest sellers are family sedans, pickup trucks, and SUVs. It's a different market.
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
No, but the U.S. is currently (not much longer, hello China) the most important car market in the world.
Last edited by TRDFantasy; 04-02-05 at 10:09 AM.
04-02-05, 10:18 AM
#30
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"This brings us to perception: with the GS being more isolated, and smoother than the M, car mags no doubt percieve the M to be more "sporty" based on ride harshness, and the fact that you can feel the road more than on the GS; less isolation in other words."
Based on my experience with the GS and M, I disagree with you. The M isn't just "perceived" to be more "sporty" because it has more road feel/harshness.
The handling feel of the GS feels much lighter and boosted relative to the M. Actually, the road feel of the GS was surprisingly good and well balanced. It was the boosted handling that I didn't lilke. Also, there was a noticeable difference in oomph between the two cars, adding to the M's sport appeal.
Based on my experience with the GS and M, I disagree with you. The M isn't just "perceived" to be more "sporty" because it has more road feel/harshness.
The handling feel of the GS feels much lighter and boosted relative to the M. Actually, the road feel of the GS was surprisingly good and well balanced. It was the boosted handling that I didn't lilke. Also, there was a noticeable difference in oomph between the two cars, adding to the M's sport appeal.