From USA Today : Lexus GS falls short of Infiniti M (merged threads)
03-25-05, 07:16 AM
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From USA Today : Lexus GS falls short of Infiniti M (merged threads)
I figure I'll post this before someone else do 
Yes, that's the title of their article :
Lexus GS falls short of Infiniti M
PONTE VEDRA, Fla. — Lexus has the misfortune of launching its nicely redesigned GS midsize luxury sedan just as Infiniti starts selling the redone M sedan, a direct rival.
The tech in the the Lexus GS 300 is amazing, but the car just isn't very exciting.
Toyota/Lexus
The GS 300 (3-liter V-6) and GS 430 (4.3-liter V-8) are chock-full of technology, grace and convenience, ensuring they are not bad cars by any measure. But they lack the M35's and M45's power, personality and panache. (The Infinitis were reviewed last week.)
The new Lexus and Infiniti cars are similar in key ways. Both offer V-6 and V-8 versions, and optional all-wheel drive, but only on V-6 models. Both use big push buttons to start and stop the engine. (Keep the key fob in your pocket.) Both consider the BMW 5 Series the benchmark among midsize luxury sedans. Both are superior to vehicles they replace.
For enthusiastic drivers — all of us, really, if only momentarily — M is more satisfying.
The M's 3.5-liter V-6 has 35 more horsepower and 40 more pounds-feet of torque than the Lexus V-6. The M's 4.5-liter V-8 has a 35-hp and 15 lbs.-ft. advantage over the Lexus V-8.
The GS' underwhelming V-6 puts that car in an awkward position. Not only is it outdone by its direct rival, it also has significantly less power and verve than the mainstream Toyota Avalon sedan just launched by the Lexus parent. Toyota says a replacement 3.5-liter V-6 is under development for GS but gave no specifics.
You can argue back and forth about other aspects — styling, probable quality, interior, prestige, depreciation — but in the end, it's hard to find yourself as involved with, as emotional about, as big-grin pleased with the Lexuses as you are with the Infinitis.
GS salients:
Toyota/Lexus
The Lexus GS 430 has a 4.3-liter V-8.
•Tech. Lots of it. The acronyms tell you so in case you miss the point. The GS 430 has VDIM to coordinate ECB, ABS, BA, EBD, VSC and EPS. PCS is optional.
Translation: Vehicle dynamics integrated management oversees electronic-control brakes, anti-lock brakes, brake assist, electronic brake-force distribution, vehicle stability control, electronic power steering. Pre-collision system costs extra.
•Handling. High-tech, anti-skid control and variable steering give the GS stunning precision during fast swerves or emergency maneuvers. The car goes where you want when other cars with stability systems might run wide at the same speed. On the V-8 model, the system even will crank it up to 2 degrees of steering to get the car aimed right if it doesn't think the driver is reacting fast enough to emergencies.
What sounds like too much Big Brother seems to work just fine. The cars steered extraordinarily crisply during the test drive in and around this fancy, ocean-view suburb near Jacksonville. The best part: You never know all those sensors and actuators are at work.
•Brakes. Delicious on the V-8. So prompt that some will consider them touchy. They're not. They're simply how brakes should feel. (Same goes for the Infiniti M with the Sport equipment.)
Lexus' pre-crash safety system will apply a significant amount of unaided braking if the sensors decide a crash is imminent and the driver is under-reacting.
That pre-crash system also tightens the safety belts and stiffens the suspension, the latter to minimize nose dive so the car doesn't ride under the high bumpers of bigger vehicles, which can be fatal.
•Features. Plenty of 'em, but the usefulness of some is not apparent.
For instance, Lexus hides minor controls, such as those for the power mirrors, dash-light adjustment and gas-flap opener. They are on a retractable pod at the lower left side of the dashboard, close to the driver's left knee. Release the glide-open pod when you need the controls. In the pre-production test cars, the pods felt flimsy. And the controls were hard to see without bending around the steering wheel.
Likewise, the seat-heater and some transmission controls hide beneath a sliding center armrest. Fine if you set-and-forget; inconvenient if you like to adjust.
Electrochromatic gauge covers adjust to the light, similar to the technology in auto-dimming rearview mirrors. That's supposed to make the instruments easy to read regardless of lighting. And you can adjust the intensity of the adjustment, for goodness sake. For all that, the test cars' gauges looked about the same regardless of lighting or setting.
The tachometer needle has been more closely synchronized with engine speed to minimize typical tach lag. Bet you never knew there was such a thing, or cared enough to wonder. Nice that Lexus is fixated on such details, but it's a so-what feature.
Lighting is everywhere, charming in the fashion of those perfectly illuminated, multimillion-dollar homes in the sales brochures you get when mistaken for a wealthy person. Lexus counts 28 lights.
•Drivetrains. Engines are reserved, subdued. Lexus no doubt sees that as refinement. You might see it simply as lack of power.
Automatic transmissions have six speeds, not the typical five. In fact, there are three different six-speed automatics: one for the V-8, one for the V-6 and yet another for the V-6 with all-wheel drive. The more speeds, or ratios, the easier it should be to keep the engine revving in its sweet spot. But the Lexus engines just don't feel all that sweet.
The automatic transmissions will downshift automatically with a tap of the brakes, handy going downhill and entering fast corners. And in the "power" setting, they stay in lower gears longer, even when you let off the gas. If you jump back on the gas and the transmission still is in a lower gear, there's no stumbling pause waiting for a downshift.
AWD normally splits power 30/70 front/rear to maintain a balanced, rear-drive handling feel. The system shifts to a 50/50 split on slippery surfaces and when the front end otherwise needs more grip.
There wasn't much chance to test the AWD on the flat, dry roads here. Beach sand would have been good, but rich people get fussy when strangers drive through their yards to get oceanside.
Perhaps layer upon layer of technology will keep the cars satisfying for years. Or perhaps Lexus has the German automakers' malady: technology for its own sake.
Maybe that's why, despite all the amazing engineering, the GS isn't exciting. Fun, after all, isn't an electronic component.
2006 Lexus GS 300, GS 430
• What is it? Top-to-bottom redesign of midsize sedans. Available with V-6 (GS 300) or V-8 (GS 430), rear-wheel drive (RWD) or all-wheel drive (AWD).
• How soon? On sale since February.
• How much? GS 300 RWD starts at $43,550, including $650 destination charge. GS 300 AWD starts at $45,500. GS 430 starts at $51,775.
Expect to pay full window-sticker price, online car-shopping sites say.
• How many? 33,000 a year, up from 8,200 last year.
• Who'll buy? Typical: married, college-educated man 40 to 50 years old. Median household income for GS 300 buyers is $125,000 to $150,000; for GS 430 buyers is $150,000 to $200,000.
• What's the drivetrain? GS 300 has 3-liter V-6 rated 245 horsepower at 6,200 rpm, 230 pounds-feet of torque at 3,600 rpm. GS 430 has 4.3-liter V-8 rated 300 hp at 5,600 rpm, 325 lbs.-ft. at 3,400 rpm. All models have six-speed automatic transmission with manual-shift mode.
AWD system normally splits power 30/70 front/rear, shifts up to 50/50 as conditions dictate.
• What's the safety gear? Expected bags and belts, plus anti-lock brakes with brake assist and electronic brake-force distribution; stability system; front-seat-mounted, side-impact bags, front and rear head-curtain bags.
• What's the rest? Standard features include leather upholstery; automatic dual-zone climate control; AM/FM/six-CD/cassette stereo; high-intensity-discharge headlights; power steering, brakes, windows, locks, mirrors, seats; memory settings for driver's and front passenger's seats; tilt-adjustable and telescoping steering column; heated front seats; fog lights; Bluetooth wireless-phone compatibility; auto on-off headlights; cruise control; auto-dimming rearview mirrors and instrument covers.
• How big? Similar to Infiniti M Series and BMW 5 Series, its main rivals. GS is 190 inches long, 71.7 inches wide, 56.1 inches tall on 112.2-inch wheelbase. Passenger space is listed as 110.5 cubic feet. Trunk is listed as 12.7 cubic feet. Weight ranges from 3,536 to 3,760 pounds, depending on model.
• How thirsty? GS 300 RWD is rated 22 miles per gallon in town, 30 on the highway. GS 300 AWD is 21/27. GS 430 is 18/25. Premium fuel is necessary to get advertised power. Regular is OK but cuts horsepower 2% to 6%, Lexus says.
• Overall: Extraordinary technology and Lexus' reputation can't make up for lack of power and underwhelming personality.
Link HERE
Yes, that's the title of their article :
Lexus GS falls short of Infiniti M
PONTE VEDRA, Fla. — Lexus has the misfortune of launching its nicely redesigned GS midsize luxury sedan just as Infiniti starts selling the redone M sedan, a direct rival.
The tech in the the Lexus GS 300 is amazing, but the car just isn't very exciting.
Toyota/Lexus
The GS 300 (3-liter V-6) and GS 430 (4.3-liter V-8) are chock-full of technology, grace and convenience, ensuring they are not bad cars by any measure. But they lack the M35's and M45's power, personality and panache. (The Infinitis were reviewed last week.)
The new Lexus and Infiniti cars are similar in key ways. Both offer V-6 and V-8 versions, and optional all-wheel drive, but only on V-6 models. Both use big push buttons to start and stop the engine. (Keep the key fob in your pocket.) Both consider the BMW 5 Series the benchmark among midsize luxury sedans. Both are superior to vehicles they replace.
For enthusiastic drivers — all of us, really, if only momentarily — M is more satisfying.
The M's 3.5-liter V-6 has 35 more horsepower and 40 more pounds-feet of torque than the Lexus V-6. The M's 4.5-liter V-8 has a 35-hp and 15 lbs.-ft. advantage over the Lexus V-8.
The GS' underwhelming V-6 puts that car in an awkward position. Not only is it outdone by its direct rival, it also has significantly less power and verve than the mainstream Toyota Avalon sedan just launched by the Lexus parent. Toyota says a replacement 3.5-liter V-6 is under development for GS but gave no specifics.
You can argue back and forth about other aspects — styling, probable quality, interior, prestige, depreciation — but in the end, it's hard to find yourself as involved with, as emotional about, as big-grin pleased with the Lexuses as you are with the Infinitis.
GS salients:
Toyota/Lexus
The Lexus GS 430 has a 4.3-liter V-8.
•Tech. Lots of it. The acronyms tell you so in case you miss the point. The GS 430 has VDIM to coordinate ECB, ABS, BA, EBD, VSC and EPS. PCS is optional.
Translation: Vehicle dynamics integrated management oversees electronic-control brakes, anti-lock brakes, brake assist, electronic brake-force distribution, vehicle stability control, electronic power steering. Pre-collision system costs extra.
•Handling. High-tech, anti-skid control and variable steering give the GS stunning precision during fast swerves or emergency maneuvers. The car goes where you want when other cars with stability systems might run wide at the same speed. On the V-8 model, the system even will crank it up to 2 degrees of steering to get the car aimed right if it doesn't think the driver is reacting fast enough to emergencies.
What sounds like too much Big Brother seems to work just fine. The cars steered extraordinarily crisply during the test drive in and around this fancy, ocean-view suburb near Jacksonville. The best part: You never know all those sensors and actuators are at work.
•Brakes. Delicious on the V-8. So prompt that some will consider them touchy. They're not. They're simply how brakes should feel. (Same goes for the Infiniti M with the Sport equipment.)
Lexus' pre-crash safety system will apply a significant amount of unaided braking if the sensors decide a crash is imminent and the driver is under-reacting.
That pre-crash system also tightens the safety belts and stiffens the suspension, the latter to minimize nose dive so the car doesn't ride under the high bumpers of bigger vehicles, which can be fatal.
•Features. Plenty of 'em, but the usefulness of some is not apparent.
For instance, Lexus hides minor controls, such as those for the power mirrors, dash-light adjustment and gas-flap opener. They are on a retractable pod at the lower left side of the dashboard, close to the driver's left knee. Release the glide-open pod when you need the controls. In the pre-production test cars, the pods felt flimsy. And the controls were hard to see without bending around the steering wheel.
Likewise, the seat-heater and some transmission controls hide beneath a sliding center armrest. Fine if you set-and-forget; inconvenient if you like to adjust.
Electrochromatic gauge covers adjust to the light, similar to the technology in auto-dimming rearview mirrors. That's supposed to make the instruments easy to read regardless of lighting. And you can adjust the intensity of the adjustment, for goodness sake. For all that, the test cars' gauges looked about the same regardless of lighting or setting.
The tachometer needle has been more closely synchronized with engine speed to minimize typical tach lag. Bet you never knew there was such a thing, or cared enough to wonder. Nice that Lexus is fixated on such details, but it's a so-what feature.
Lighting is everywhere, charming in the fashion of those perfectly illuminated, multimillion-dollar homes in the sales brochures you get when mistaken for a wealthy person. Lexus counts 28 lights.
•Drivetrains. Engines are reserved, subdued. Lexus no doubt sees that as refinement. You might see it simply as lack of power.
Automatic transmissions have six speeds, not the typical five. In fact, there are three different six-speed automatics: one for the V-8, one for the V-6 and yet another for the V-6 with all-wheel drive. The more speeds, or ratios, the easier it should be to keep the engine revving in its sweet spot. But the Lexus engines just don't feel all that sweet.
The automatic transmissions will downshift automatically with a tap of the brakes, handy going downhill and entering fast corners. And in the "power" setting, they stay in lower gears longer, even when you let off the gas. If you jump back on the gas and the transmission still is in a lower gear, there's no stumbling pause waiting for a downshift.
AWD normally splits power 30/70 front/rear to maintain a balanced, rear-drive handling feel. The system shifts to a 50/50 split on slippery surfaces and when the front end otherwise needs more grip.
There wasn't much chance to test the AWD on the flat, dry roads here. Beach sand would have been good, but rich people get fussy when strangers drive through their yards to get oceanside.
Perhaps layer upon layer of technology will keep the cars satisfying for years. Or perhaps Lexus has the German automakers' malady: technology for its own sake.
Maybe that's why, despite all the amazing engineering, the GS isn't exciting. Fun, after all, isn't an electronic component.
2006 Lexus GS 300, GS 430
• What is it? Top-to-bottom redesign of midsize sedans. Available with V-6 (GS 300) or V-8 (GS 430), rear-wheel drive (RWD) or all-wheel drive (AWD).
• How soon? On sale since February.
• How much? GS 300 RWD starts at $43,550, including $650 destination charge. GS 300 AWD starts at $45,500. GS 430 starts at $51,775.
Expect to pay full window-sticker price, online car-shopping sites say.
• How many? 33,000 a year, up from 8,200 last year.
• Who'll buy? Typical: married, college-educated man 40 to 50 years old. Median household income for GS 300 buyers is $125,000 to $150,000; for GS 430 buyers is $150,000 to $200,000.
• What's the drivetrain? GS 300 has 3-liter V-6 rated 245 horsepower at 6,200 rpm, 230 pounds-feet of torque at 3,600 rpm. GS 430 has 4.3-liter V-8 rated 300 hp at 5,600 rpm, 325 lbs.-ft. at 3,400 rpm. All models have six-speed automatic transmission with manual-shift mode.
AWD system normally splits power 30/70 front/rear, shifts up to 50/50 as conditions dictate.
• What's the safety gear? Expected bags and belts, plus anti-lock brakes with brake assist and electronic brake-force distribution; stability system; front-seat-mounted, side-impact bags, front and rear head-curtain bags.
• What's the rest? Standard features include leather upholstery; automatic dual-zone climate control; AM/FM/six-CD/cassette stereo; high-intensity-discharge headlights; power steering, brakes, windows, locks, mirrors, seats; memory settings for driver's and front passenger's seats; tilt-adjustable and telescoping steering column; heated front seats; fog lights; Bluetooth wireless-phone compatibility; auto on-off headlights; cruise control; auto-dimming rearview mirrors and instrument covers.
• How big? Similar to Infiniti M Series and BMW 5 Series, its main rivals. GS is 190 inches long, 71.7 inches wide, 56.1 inches tall on 112.2-inch wheelbase. Passenger space is listed as 110.5 cubic feet. Trunk is listed as 12.7 cubic feet. Weight ranges from 3,536 to 3,760 pounds, depending on model.
• How thirsty? GS 300 RWD is rated 22 miles per gallon in town, 30 on the highway. GS 300 AWD is 21/27. GS 430 is 18/25. Premium fuel is necessary to get advertised power. Regular is OK but cuts horsepower 2% to 6%, Lexus says.
• Overall: Extraordinary technology and Lexus' reputation can't make up for lack of power and underwhelming personality.
Link HERE
Last edited by Gojirra99; 03-25-05 at 07:36 AM.
03-25-05, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by DrDrilZ
seems to be the reoccuring theme lately. lexus is not used to being second place behind infiniti. but it seems that all auto journalists like the infiniti better. 
BMW used to win almost every single comparison test, but that isn't the case anymore. Ever since 1989, Infiniti has mostly been a struggling brand. Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat the same misakes.
Three years ago, things changed with the G35 and continue to do so now. I own a Lexus, but I personally like it when underdogs turn the establishment upside down. Infiniti is doing it now to a lesser extent, just like Lexus did ever since it was introduced. It makes everyone else stand at attention and take notice.
03-25-05, 08:23 AM
#4
Racer
Whatever Lexus isn't make no body stand at attention. Well maybe MB
Not to be fun but Lexus sell more SUV’s than any luxury company not cars. I don't even consider SUV’s luxury anymore. But that just me.
The gs basically have never outsold the 5. No doubt the 430 is nice as **** but it was stupid for Lexus to bring a under power gs300 to the market just to say in 2 years were bumping the horsepower up.
Not to be fun but Lexus sell more SUV’s than any luxury company not cars. I don't even consider SUV’s luxury anymore. But that just me.
The gs basically have never outsold the 5. No doubt the 430 is nice as **** but it was stupid for Lexus to bring a under power gs300 to the market just to say in 2 years were bumping the horsepower up.
03-25-05, 08:32 AM
#5
Lexus Connoisseur
The M does offer alot of bang for the buck performance wise but not by much. The only downfall I can think of for the GS is the 300hp rating and the same 4.3L 3UZ-FE VVT-i V8 from 4 years ago. But that's from a powertrain aspect only.
But that's from a powertrain aspect only.
03-25-05, 08:34 AM
#6
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Thread Starter
Originally Posted by rogers
. . . No doubt the 430 is nice as **** but it was stupid for Lexus to bring a under power gs300 to the market just to say in 2 years were bumping the horsepower up.
03-25-05, 08:37 AM
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The GS350 and GS460 are coming next year, from what I understand. So power should be no problem. I wish they would tighten up the handling feel though. Alas, I doubt they'll make design changes to that horrendously small trunk opening, my personal pet peeve with the GS.
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03-25-05, 08:41 AM
#8
This is what I consider a good review. It seems from my reading that the cars are geared to two different types of drivers. The GS is going to the "I love a nice quiet card thats quick but not intrusive" crowd. M45 is for "Give me some passion with my Japanese wanna be German Auto w/o the service department storage" . As much as I love my GS, I feel kinda *Hmmm* about it sometimes. Sometimes it's just seems to have no personalitiy. I shouldn't have to MOD it to get it either. But I will be holding on to it because it does get the attention of the ladies. But I will be watching M45 closely for next few years. The new GS is no longer on my radar. I think I will keep my 01 for awhile.
03-25-05, 08:42 AM
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Thread Starter
Originally Posted by flipside909
The M does offer alot of bang for the buck performance wise but not by much. The only downfall I can think of for the GS is the 300hp rating and the same 4.3L 3UZ-FE VVT-i V8 from 4 years ago. But that's from a powertrain aspect only.
But that's from a powertrain aspect only.
03-25-05, 09:04 AM
#10
Well Lexus is a great brand and the cars are a treat to ride in, but for a driver it isn't much fun to drive the new GS as it would be to drive some of the other comparable cars out there like the M. It has more power and that alone gives it the upper hand over the GS. Lexus has not bumped up these numbers in the past few years and it's hurting them. Especially when you have cars like the Avalon, Maxima, Altima with just as much or more power as the GS3 to push it along in traffic. My GS3 struggles sometimes just to even keep up with them. It’s embarrassing.
Lexus and Toyotas are great to ride in, and the panache of that Marquee is a big plus along with the dependability, but any driver who has a passion to drive will probably rate a lot of cars in the same class as better and the Ms are a more powerful car. I value a lot of what Lexus gives you in terms of the reliability, dependability, comfort, customer service, value, lower depreciation rate, etc. so when choosing a car to own that I will be paying for and using as a daily driver, the GS is the smart choice.
I think that the journalists are picking these cars from the perspective of a driver and not as a real world owner and there is nothing wrong with that, but as a reader I think we should all make sure that we keep in mind, that our needs are going to be a lot different and more in line with the real world.
I’d love to have an M but I would never spend my own money on one. I’d gladly pay for another GS though, and I’d enjoy it for what it is and has to offer…..short-comings and all.
Lexus and Toyotas are great to ride in, and the panache of that Marquee is a big plus along with the dependability, but any driver who has a passion to drive will probably rate a lot of cars in the same class as better and the Ms are a more powerful car. I value a lot of what Lexus gives you in terms of the reliability, dependability, comfort, customer service, value, lower depreciation rate, etc. so when choosing a car to own that I will be paying for and using as a daily driver, the GS is the smart choice.
I think that the journalists are picking these cars from the perspective of a driver and not as a real world owner and there is nothing wrong with that, but as a reader I think we should all make sure that we keep in mind, that our needs are going to be a lot different and more in line with the real world.
I’d love to have an M but I would never spend my own money on one. I’d gladly pay for another GS though, and I’d enjoy it for what it is and has to offer…..short-comings and all.
03-25-05, 09:07 AM
#11
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Originally Posted by DrDrilZ
seems to be the reoccuring theme lately. lexus is not used to being second place behind infiniti. but it seems that all auto journalists like the infiniti better.
But I'll wait for the sales numbers...............
Because all these people bashing the GS, if they were spending 50-55k out of their pocket, i'd bet my coin they are coming home with the GS...
"I" Would have a hard time spending that much on an Infinti.... Just as I would spending 50k on an RL.
Both great cars... But at the end of the day, spending 50k I just feel more comfortable with the Lexus name plate.
03-25-05, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by AmethySC
Bet you never knew there was such a thing, or cared enough to wonder. Nice that Lexus is fixated on such details, but it's a so-what feature.
Link HERE
It shows just how dead freaking serious Toyota is when it comes to car building.
If you add a lot of those "so-what feature" together, you'd have the difference between a good
product and a GREAT product.
03-25-05, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by chicagoblknazn
Especially when you have cars like the Avalon, Maxima, Altima with just as much or more power as the GS3 to push it along in traffic. My GS3 struggles sometimes just to even keep up with them. It’s embarrassing.
the Toyota way, using Hybrid instead of stuffing big displacement and superchargers......
It might just be me, but I really do not like the idea of high power family sedans.
03-25-05, 10:05 AM
#14
Originally Posted by TRD-bB
I know how you feel, but Toyotas are never about horsepower. But by the way the new Avalon looks, I guess Toyota will finally join the big horsepower wagon. Just glad that they are doing it
the Toyota way, using Hybrid instead of stuffing big displacement and superchargers......
It might just be me, but I really do not like the idea of high power family sedans.
the Toyota way, using Hybrid instead of stuffing big displacement and superchargers......
It might just be me, but I really do not like the idea of high power family sedans.
I think Toyota has been taking notice of this and knows that they need to kick things up a notch and I feel the new Avalon is the beginning of this change, but I wish they wouldn't have waited so long.
03-25-05, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by jpa2400
The M is a great car.
But I'll wait for the sales numbers...............
Because all these people bashing the GS, if they were spending 50-55k out of their pocket, i'd bet my coin they are coming home with the GS...
"I" Would have a hard time spending that much on an Infinti.... Just as I would spending 50k on an RL.
Both great cars... But at the end of the day, spending 50k I just feel more comfortable with the Lexus name plate.
But I'll wait for the sales numbers...............
Because all these people bashing the GS, if they were spending 50-55k out of their pocket, i'd bet my coin they are coming home with the GS...
"I" Would have a hard time spending that much on an Infinti.... Just as I would spending 50k on an RL.
Both great cars... But at the end of the day, spending 50k I just feel more comfortable with the Lexus name plate.