ChrisK

iTrader: (1)

This is a good example of "fair" german comperison.
1. Let's for the split second compare VW to Lexus. Besides, the Elk test VW looses to Lexus, but overall it scores higher.
2. As axel said, in the Comfort / Noise (Gerausche) rating they give the GS the lowest rating of the group - 10 out of 15, when 540i is 11, did testers acutally drove these cars. I would imagine besides doug_999, we all can agree that 540i is way noisier then GS430.
3. Please feel free to add to this list, as I assume there are other "fair" comperisons.

Also, this reminds me of the comparison between M5 and RS6 done by one of the german TV shows. After RS6 beat M5 in every department, M5 managed to win because, it had softer suspension and it was cheaper. Go figure. I guess sometimes you cannot win, even if you are better.

HKGS300

Autobild did not explain why they gave the Lex 10 points and the BMW 540i 11 points.
They did praise the very low noise level of the Lex when starting the car. They said that even after turning off the radio, and the A/C, they still did not hear the engine.
They did not mention this for the other 3 cars. In general they are praising the very low noise levels of the V8.

Therefore, I believe that other factors, like tire noise, may have caused this relatively weak score. Since the BMW was using smaller Michelin Pilot HX tires 225/55/16 (did not posted thay info ), versus the Lex 235/45/17 Bridgestone RE030, could have attributed to noise difference. Michelin tires are famous for the low-noise levels.

doug_999

Chris
I don't understand. If the dimensions are the same, how is the 540 smaller? Splain please?

Also, FYI, not only will I agree that the GS is noiser, so does Car and Driver. Their tests show the 540 quieter than the GS at highway speeds. 2db on the 540 vs. GS430 and 1db on the 530 vs. GS300.

As I drive on the highway a lot, I would bet that comes from wind noise which the GS seems to have its share of.

ChrisK

iTrader: (1)

doug_999,

Let me add to the "bottle" you have with Ron430. GS430 has wider interior, smaller seats, lower to the floor. Or shell we look at the EPA Size Classification that states that 5-series is "Compact car" while GS-series is "Mid-size car". Strange since by your standard they are the same size.
Do not quote Car and Driver, since they are morons blinded by BMW. I'm talking about the first hand experience, mine. I compared 2000 GS400 to my friend's 2000 540i, and if you're telling me 540i is quieter, I would have to say you need to clean the wax out of your ears, just kidding , and I guess Car and Driver columnist can to the same not kidding here.
Anything else I could explain to you?

doug_999

ahh, the most widely read auto magazine is blinded by BMW. Got it. So is Edmunds in case you are wondering - check out the editors choices for cars. Hmmm, come to think of it, most car mags and websites seem to be blinded by BMW. Weird.

Trust me, the 540 is quieter. I had one for 3 years. C&D uses instruments to measure the sound levels and they confirm this(yea, I know they are adjusted for BMWs .

I have stated (and so have others who have owned E39 5-series) that the front seat room feels similar to the GS but the rear seat room seems better in the GS (the posts from the German mag show this as well as rear seat is shorter on the GS). All the measurements I have ever seen posted confirm this. No clue where that 7 cu ft of space dif comes from -seriously. I have always suspected this to be an error. Go sit in a 3 series and then in a 5 (very easy to do at a BMW dealer) - the interiors are dramatically different in size.

BTW, German cars do tend to be very quiet on the highway.

Benny

I'll agree having gone from GS4 to BMW E39, that the subtle differences that I took for granted and thought were just overpriced are well worth it in the BMW. The car is just much more solid than the Lex.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

I tend to agree :eek: that BMWs are more 'solidly' built than the Lexus. I think after a few years a BMW will still feel more solid than a Lexus. Something about the steering and suspension seem to come 'loose' on many Japanese cars whereas the German cars tend to stay very tight and solid. Drive a 5 (or better 10) year old Mercedes vs. a 10 year old Lexus.

I think the difference is the Germans use expensive materials built to lesser tolerances and the Japanese use cheap materials built to **** tolerances!

But things are changing, mainly that the German makers are reducing costs and improving tolerances so both sides are converging.

HOWEVER, in terms of reliability, things just not breaking, like electrical things, lights, electronics, I give the nod to the Japanese.

I also agree with Doug that the 540i front seat vs. GS is very similar but that the rear feels like it has a lot more room in the GS, but it could be an illusion.

As far as noise, they're both very quiet, but bear in mind that more BMWs will have fat factory tires (sport package has staggered rims with 265s out back) vs. more GS's (300s) having the wimpy 215's on 16's.

RON430

Let's do the time warp


again.

I was concerned about responding to this thread with the Autobild comparo. Especially because I thought it would be hard to drag in the grenading, 10W60 guzzling M3 motors but the "Burning Block" returned in my rear view mirror to voice his pleasure with this thread. You see, the bimmerian marketeers can sleep comfortably with the knowledge that most people don't know the difference between linear dimensions (such as the way leg room or head room are reported) and cubic dimensions (the way that volumes are reported). The bimmerians have worked very hard to establish the "perceived value" that the 5 is in another size class altogether over the 3 series and indeed in this category only, is comparable with the GS. Reporting generally only linear dimensions has been something that the bimmerians have been very pleased about and are truly encouraged that their devotees are unable to distinguish the volume a car's interior can hold but know that the true measurement is how far forward or backward you can adjust the seat.

When I asked the Burning Block about the EPA numbers I actually trembled in fear as there was such a belch of smoke that I couldn't stand to look at the mirror anymore. The Burning Block of course admonished me that the EPA numbers are based on SAE Recommended Practice J1100 as per EPA Fuel economy regulations, reg. 40 CFR 600.315-82 "Classes of Comparable Automobiles". I wasn't following but trying to be TC I asked why this was important. Well, the Burning Block informed that this was not a DIN spec so how could it be accurate? I pointed out that the EPA does not do the measurement but rather relies on data supplied by the automaker, in this case BMW. Boy was that a mistake because I think saw several small pieces of some sort fall off of the Burning Block, and some sort of electrical device actually quit sparking, and then a bimmerian, resplendant in flowing bimmer M sport robes appeared and seemed to add several liters of precious golden fluid to the Burning Block from containers marked "BMW Racing Engine Only". This seemed to calm the Burning Block down although for a short period of time, there was more smoke.

The Burning Block informed me that there were dimensions, and there were dimensions. Whenever possible, particularly for automotive journalist comparison purposes, the bimmerians are deeply involved and attempt to provide whatever numbers justify the comparo results. Evidently this practice is steeped in tradition. The Burning Block then pointed out to me that the article in question lists the trunk volume of the GS at 510l which is 18 cu ft, while the EPA site reports the GS trunk as 15 cu ft. I basked in the glow of true Teutonic Correctness even though I knew that the 5 series was reported as having 460l, 16.24 cu ft while the bimmerians reported to the EPA (and Edmunds and half a dozen other sites I visited) that the trunk volume of the 5 is 11.1 cu ft. The Burning Block warned me about my smugness as it was obvious that the 5 had the European only GT option. Evidently this "grossetrunk" option is quite popular and widely available in Europe (where the value of "Option" pricing is well known and adored) while Lexus had simply demonstrated their inability to provide correct numbers.

Just to make sure I understood, I went back to the EPA site and confirmed that with bimmerian numbers, both the 5 and 3 are classed as "Compact Cars" while the GS is classifed as a "MidSize Car". The Burning Block would not address the Lexus numbers of 100 cu ft for interior volume and 15 cu ft trunk but did confirm that the 3 series has 91 cu ft of interior space and 11 cu ft of trunk, while the 5 warrants its loftier price tag by providing 93 cu ft of stretch out interior volume and 11 cu ft of trunk space. When I brought up the fact that according to the numbers (Oh, and Doug, even the Burning Block new I have sat in the 3,5, Zorro 4, and 7 at several car shows and other places in the last six months) that the GS had a significantly larger interior and trunk the Burning Block returned to the leg room, head rooom, etc. linear dimensions. I actually thought that the Burning Block was beginning to speak in a thundering voice but I noticed the smoke was thinning and coincident with the reappearance of the bimmerian with the golden fluid, there was just more noise coming from the Burning Block. When I asked about the reluctance to discuss the volumetric measurements, the Burning Block informed me that the bimmerians had determined long ago that BMW owners are best dealt with as one dimensional and that no further discussion was needed nor would be permitted and that other "challenges" of this type are normally addressed by the bimmerians with a "We will do that different in the next one" and that I had more than ample explanation presented. With that, there was a crackling sound, even more smoke, and the Burning Block disappeared.

So, golly gee fellows, I am satisfied. I am sorry I even brought it up. Next time I am in a 5 (or 3), and rubbing shoulders with whoever is in the other seat, I will know that it is an optical illusion and that the bimmerians have developed a sound basis of perceived value around their customers being one dimensional.

One last point, when asked about the outcome of the review and the picking of the VW (one which even VW doesn't seem eager to keep producing) over the Lexus by a German auto review, the Burning Block just responded with "Duh".

doug_999

Does anyone know what he is saying?

RON430

Forgive me doug, I thought you could remember the other thread, you know, the end of the thread that you posted the link to up above. Guess I will have to start to work on "bimmer notes", just the summary.

doug_999

Any chance you could just compress it down into four or five readable sentences?

RON430

Of course Doug. Here is your original post that I was responding to. I don't know why I would have expected you to remember it. Now, let's see.

"Is the EPA wrong?" No.

"Have I sat in a 5-series?" Yes.

"How did I "feel" the difference in size?" By noticing there was more room.

"I'll take the apology in writing please." Of course Doug, I will forever apologize for buying a Lexus when I could have had a bimmer. What was I thinking? Maybe we need a new thread - Apologies to bimmer owners from everyone who bought a Lexus? What do you think?

"Go sit in a 3-series and then a 5 and tell me if it feels like 2 cu. ft. of difference there too (hint, the 5 is a lot bigger)." I did sit in a 3 and then a 5 at the SF auto show in Nov. Funny thing is that even with your appreciated hint I just couldn't see how the 5 had 2 cu ft more room. Seemed a lot closer to the 3 than that.

I noticed that your original post was on the 16th where you refer to not only the other thread but raise the questions I just answered (again). The bimmerians did mention something about the short attention span of bimmer owners but I just couldn't believe it. From now on, I will try to respond within minutes to your postings or if I can't and it goes over say, five hours, I will assume that we have forgotten what we are talking about and I will requote the message. I hope this is TC enough. Just can't believe a day went by where I didn't post an apology for not buying a bimmer.

Brent - I tried. Gosh I tried. But the insanity continues.

doug_999

Perfect! Now was that so hard? And I bet it took a lot less time to write that than your original post.

Keep up the good work.

Doug

RON430

I will try to quote your messages just so we can remember what you posted.

No, it wasn't hard. I will have to check with the Burning Block about this attention span thing with bimmer owners and past bimmer owners. He may not be aware of it but I am sure it is a good thing for marketing bimmers. I am glad you were able to get through the repost. I'll try and remember that brevity is important when posting about bimmers.

As always, I apologize for getting a Lexus. How many months left now? 38?

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

I think we've violated many points on this page:

http://www.advicemeant.com/flame/03words.shtml