Lexus Tire Vibration defect? Tell us your experiences!
#1
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Recently just installed bilstein / eibach combination with 18" wheels on my GS3. I took it to my Lexus dealer for alignment and installation. The car is moving straight and all but when I am at cruising speed, say above 60mph, the car starts to shake and I can feel the vibration at the steering wheel. I have taken the car for a tire balancing, it helps a great deal but still shakes a bit. What might be the cause for this?
Thanks for your comment.
ARIST
Thanks for your comment.
ARIST
#3
Lexus Champion
Was it smooth before? If yes, the problem sounds to be in the wheel/tires. The springs and shocks should not cause any problem but could make it more apparent.
Tire wise, out of round, out of ballance, bad belt, manufacturer defect, etc. Often tire shops will "rotate" a vibrating tire on the wheel to reduce run out. Run out is the amount of the highest to lowest point on the tread as the tire is turned. This can also be a wheel with the same run out or balance problem. What specific tires and wheels do you have?
Tire wise, out of round, out of ballance, bad belt, manufacturer defect, etc. Often tire shops will "rotate" a vibrating tire on the wheel to reduce run out. Run out is the amount of the highest to lowest point on the tread as the tire is turned. This can also be a wheel with the same run out or balance problem. What specific tires and wheels do you have?
#4
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Vibration in the steering wheel would tend to indicate a problem with a front wheel, tire, alignment or suspension component.
Are these the same wheels as before the mods? Same tires? Did you feel any vibration before the mods?
It's a matter of checking each component until the offending one is found.
Remember, your new, stiffer set-up will transmit more road feel and vibration into the car.
One thing to try is to rotate one wheel/tire from front to back and see if the problem moves from the steering wheel to the seat of your pants. If not, then move the other wheel/tire and check again.
If the problem doesn't move then it's most likely not your rims/tires. It's with another component in the suspension. A loose component will show up more at higher speeds because of centrifugal force. Since it's loose it will amplify small irregularities in the spinning wheel/tire and your stiffer suspension will transmit more of it to you.
If your dealer can't find it go to the best tire/alignment shop in town - - you may have to go to one that concentrates on racers and have them give it a look.
Good luck!
Marty
Are these the same wheels as before the mods? Same tires? Did you feel any vibration before the mods?
It's a matter of checking each component until the offending one is found.
Remember, your new, stiffer set-up will transmit more road feel and vibration into the car.
One thing to try is to rotate one wheel/tire from front to back and see if the problem moves from the steering wheel to the seat of your pants. If not, then move the other wheel/tire and check again.
If the problem doesn't move then it's most likely not your rims/tires. It's with another component in the suspension. A loose component will show up more at higher speeds because of centrifugal force. Since it's loose it will amplify small irregularities in the spinning wheel/tire and your stiffer suspension will transmit more of it to you.
If your dealer can't find it go to the best tire/alignment shop in town - - you may have to go to one that concentrates on racers and have them give it a look.
Good luck!
Marty
#6
The wheels could be torqued down too much. The book calls for 76 ft/lbs.
Also, some Lexus dealers have a machine that can check if either the wheel or tire is out of round. Also, if shocks are adjustable make sure they are all set the same.
Also, some Lexus dealers have a machine that can check if either the wheel or tire is out of round. Also, if shocks are adjustable make sure they are all set the same.
#7
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centering rings needed??
ARIST - I switched to 18s and had vibration above 55mph.
I went to a 'high end' wheels/tires and aligning/balancing place today to get my wheels balanced. They insist that the only way you can get most aftermarket wheels effectively balanced is to
use 'centering rings' which basically match the inner hub diameter of the after market wheels to the axle center on the car. Anyway, I got the balancing done today (high speed, with wheels on the car) with centering
rings added - they finally had the right size (73mm) and the difference is significant. They pointed out though (and showed me that) my front left tire actually has a flat spot so it won't be perfect, but the car rides great
now (except for a slight 'thwap' from the flat spot tire). I can finally fly again.
I went to a 'high end' wheels/tires and aligning/balancing place today to get my wheels balanced. They insist that the only way you can get most aftermarket wheels effectively balanced is to
use 'centering rings' which basically match the inner hub diameter of the after market wheels to the axle center on the car. Anyway, I got the balancing done today (high speed, with wheels on the car) with centering
rings added - they finally had the right size (73mm) and the difference is significant. They pointed out though (and showed me that) my front left tire actually has a flat spot so it won't be perfect, but the car rides great
now (except for a slight 'thwap' from the flat spot tire). I can finally fly again.
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#8
As for the high speed balance, i believe the machine you want is a Hunter 9000 or something like that. It basically "road" balanced the tires, checking for flat spots and various other conditions under loads, unlike reg. spinning the tires type of balancing. I had this done and now the ride is perfect, no vibration at any speeds.
#10
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Before I commence here, I would like to explain my reason for this post and encourage anyone else who has experienced this problem to respond.
I am searching the web specifically for information regarding the vibration/front-end suspension sensitivity issue with the GS400 (not the -430, where the problem seems to have been cured by Lexus).
My -ex & I purchased 2 GS's in Aug & Sep of 1998. One is a '98 and the other is a '99, both with 17" low profile Bridgestones. We have been fighting with Lexus ever since over repetitive tire/front end vibration.
Both cars had front end vibration from the first month of ownership. After several re-balancings, the problem would always re-surface, usually within 1000 miles of driving.
I found out that the rims on both cars were Lexus factory-powder coated rims that were locally chromed. This was a common practice among Lexus dealerships as they can make more money than by buying the factory-chromed rims from Japan.
I also found out that at their annual service manager meeting that year (Vegas?), Lexus and it's dealerships were embroiled in hot arguments over this. Many GS owners experienced the vibration problem, which Lexus blamed on the greed of the dealers.
At this point, my dealership, and at their expense, replaced the rims with factory-chromed rims and re-balanced them. The problem re-asserted itself within 1000 miles.
Then a new wrinkle. When the dealership went to re-balance the tires, they noticed that the tires had actually slipped on the rims. During the balancing proceedure, the technician marks the tire/rim and if the tire slips, the marks are no longer lined up.
The dealership then said that Lexus had acknowledged that there was a spec problem between those rims and the Bridgestone factory tires. They said the tires were slipping on the rims, which would require constant re-balancing.
The dealership then replaced the Bridgestones with Goodyears, again, at their expense (even the spare!). Since that time, vibration has re-occurred at the same intervals, but the dealer insists that the tires are no longer slipping and that they are just going out-of-balance.
At this point, YOU TELL ME. We purchased $100K of cars that need to have the tires re-balanced every 1000 miles. My dealership and its service manager have gone WAY out of their way to lend assistance with this problem, but Lexus has done nothing to address it formally.
According to my dealership, Lexus took the extraordinary step six months ago of cutting off any further "customer goodwill" fixes for anything related to GS tire/vibration problem.
I also had my service manager check, and the part number for the GS400 rim matches that for the -430, so whatever fix that Lexus implemented with the -430 was not the rim.
I should also mention that one of the major car magazines, either Car & Driver or Motor Trend, in a 25K test two years ago, found the same problem.
Now, get this: my -ex moved to Arizona and has been fighting with the dealership and Lexus over this issue (since she did not buy the car there, obviously the dealership is reluctant to do anything about it since it comes out of their pocket). The service manager there told her, after denying they had any knowledge of a problem, that they had devised a method to EXPOXY THE TIRES TO THE RIM! When I asked my service manager about this, he went "HUH???!!!". Now, let me all ask you a question: Why has this dealership devised a non-factory authorized fix to a problem that they say doesn't exist!? Seems phony and very suspicious to me!
There seems to be an enormous number of owners who have experienced this problem. It is especially prevelent in, but not limited to, the GS's with the low profile tires.
I am interested in anything anyone has to say on this subject. I am concerned not only because I have to return the car to the dealership for re-balancing every 1K miles, but I am now hearing the story from outside sources; there is a growing public knowledge of this problem which will ultimately reduce the resale value of this car in the future. THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE to me.
Please LMK your thoughts and experiences on this issue. If you have experienced the problem and either you thought or your dealership tried to convince you that you were nuts, YOU ARE NOT.
So, LET'S hear it, guys! Fire away!
I am searching the web specifically for information regarding the vibration/front-end suspension sensitivity issue with the GS400 (not the -430, where the problem seems to have been cured by Lexus).
My -ex & I purchased 2 GS's in Aug & Sep of 1998. One is a '98 and the other is a '99, both with 17" low profile Bridgestones. We have been fighting with Lexus ever since over repetitive tire/front end vibration.
Both cars had front end vibration from the first month of ownership. After several re-balancings, the problem would always re-surface, usually within 1000 miles of driving.
I found out that the rims on both cars were Lexus factory-powder coated rims that were locally chromed. This was a common practice among Lexus dealerships as they can make more money than by buying the factory-chromed rims from Japan.
I also found out that at their annual service manager meeting that year (Vegas?), Lexus and it's dealerships were embroiled in hot arguments over this. Many GS owners experienced the vibration problem, which Lexus blamed on the greed of the dealers.
At this point, my dealership, and at their expense, replaced the rims with factory-chromed rims and re-balanced them. The problem re-asserted itself within 1000 miles.
Then a new wrinkle. When the dealership went to re-balance the tires, they noticed that the tires had actually slipped on the rims. During the balancing proceedure, the technician marks the tire/rim and if the tire slips, the marks are no longer lined up.
The dealership then said that Lexus had acknowledged that there was a spec problem between those rims and the Bridgestone factory tires. They said the tires were slipping on the rims, which would require constant re-balancing.
The dealership then replaced the Bridgestones with Goodyears, again, at their expense (even the spare!). Since that time, vibration has re-occurred at the same intervals, but the dealer insists that the tires are no longer slipping and that they are just going out-of-balance.
At this point, YOU TELL ME. We purchased $100K of cars that need to have the tires re-balanced every 1000 miles. My dealership and its service manager have gone WAY out of their way to lend assistance with this problem, but Lexus has done nothing to address it formally.
According to my dealership, Lexus took the extraordinary step six months ago of cutting off any further "customer goodwill" fixes for anything related to GS tire/vibration problem.
I also had my service manager check, and the part number for the GS400 rim matches that for the -430, so whatever fix that Lexus implemented with the -430 was not the rim.
I should also mention that one of the major car magazines, either Car & Driver or Motor Trend, in a 25K test two years ago, found the same problem.
Now, get this: my -ex moved to Arizona and has been fighting with the dealership and Lexus over this issue (since she did not buy the car there, obviously the dealership is reluctant to do anything about it since it comes out of their pocket). The service manager there told her, after denying they had any knowledge of a problem, that they had devised a method to EXPOXY THE TIRES TO THE RIM! When I asked my service manager about this, he went "HUH???!!!". Now, let me all ask you a question: Why has this dealership devised a non-factory authorized fix to a problem that they say doesn't exist!? Seems phony and very suspicious to me!
There seems to be an enormous number of owners who have experienced this problem. It is especially prevelent in, but not limited to, the GS's with the low profile tires.
I am interested in anything anyone has to say on this subject. I am concerned not only because I have to return the car to the dealership for re-balancing every 1K miles, but I am now hearing the story from outside sources; there is a growing public knowledge of this problem which will ultimately reduce the resale value of this car in the future. THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE to me.
Please LMK your thoughts and experiences on this issue. If you have experienced the problem and either you thought or your dealership tried to convince you that you were nuts, YOU ARE NOT.
So, LET'S hear it, guys! Fire away!
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
Folks, this is my first post to what looks like a terrific site. I have a 2001 GS-300 with standard 16" rims (non chrome) and OEM Bridgestone 16" Turnaza tires.
Since day one, I have heard (but don't really feel) a chattering sound coming from the front end. My driving experience tells me "out of round tire" or something related to the tire's manufacture. That, or a problem with a bearing or other axle-related component. Today, there are 2100 miles or so, and no real deterioration, and certainly no improvement.
Your existing dialogues bring up a number of concerns, some related to low-profile tires, some related to chrome rims, but the common denominator seems to be that this is a problem that Lexus has known about for a long time, started to support the dealers on, and now has left them high-and dry to come up with some rather implausible solutions for the owner.
Because I wanted a very unique car (in the East you can't easily get a GS-300 with navigation, and almost nobody has the Mystic Sea Green) I bought from a dealer in California and had my baby shipped to New York.
I took the car to my local Lexus dealer at 1300 miles and they heard the noise, too. It happens at highway speeds. The Service Team Leader told me they had learned of this problem in a training session (not in print in a Service Bulletin) and that there were no real solutions - they were told by the trainer to try removing, re-mounting and rebalancing the tires. They did that, and there's no difference.
While some folks who post on one of the Yahoo Club Boards told me their dealer replaced tires, from what I'm reading here, this sounds like a problem that I'm gonna be stuck with. With all the poor manufacturing issues we've seen from Firestone/Bridgestone, I want to take the quick way out and blame the tire, and try my favorites - Michelin MXV 4's instead. For $500, I feel I might be rid of the problem, but that's not fair to me.
Worse, it sounds like others here have replaced tires with other brands and the problem has not gone away. This makes me wonder whether it's a tire/rim issue at all, or whether it's deeper into the bearing/axle world.
I'd really like to hear from any other GS owners who have had similar experience, and especially if anyone has found a permanent solution. $45,000 on a car that makes a constant "takataka takataka" sound anywhere over 50 mph - that kind of sucks.
Since day one, I have heard (but don't really feel) a chattering sound coming from the front end. My driving experience tells me "out of round tire" or something related to the tire's manufacture. That, or a problem with a bearing or other axle-related component. Today, there are 2100 miles or so, and no real deterioration, and certainly no improvement.
Your existing dialogues bring up a number of concerns, some related to low-profile tires, some related to chrome rims, but the common denominator seems to be that this is a problem that Lexus has known about for a long time, started to support the dealers on, and now has left them high-and dry to come up with some rather implausible solutions for the owner.
Because I wanted a very unique car (in the East you can't easily get a GS-300 with navigation, and almost nobody has the Mystic Sea Green) I bought from a dealer in California and had my baby shipped to New York.
I took the car to my local Lexus dealer at 1300 miles and they heard the noise, too. It happens at highway speeds. The Service Team Leader told me they had learned of this problem in a training session (not in print in a Service Bulletin) and that there were no real solutions - they were told by the trainer to try removing, re-mounting and rebalancing the tires. They did that, and there's no difference.
While some folks who post on one of the Yahoo Club Boards told me their dealer replaced tires, from what I'm reading here, this sounds like a problem that I'm gonna be stuck with. With all the poor manufacturing issues we've seen from Firestone/Bridgestone, I want to take the quick way out and blame the tire, and try my favorites - Michelin MXV 4's instead. For $500, I feel I might be rid of the problem, but that's not fair to me.
Worse, it sounds like others here have replaced tires with other brands and the problem has not gone away. This makes me wonder whether it's a tire/rim issue at all, or whether it's deeper into the bearing/axle world.
I'd really like to hear from any other GS owners who have had similar experience, and especially if anyone has found a permanent solution. $45,000 on a car that makes a constant "takataka takataka" sound anywhere over 50 mph - that kind of sucks.
#12
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I took delivery of a '98 GS400 in June of '98. It came with the non-chrome 17" wheels and those wonderful Bridgestones.
Almost a year later, after complaining to the dealer several times, they installed a mod to my front end (not sure what they replaced -- I seem to recall it was a bushing) under warranty that solved both the front-end vibration and what I termed "wandering" of the car. Since then no problems.
Under the best of circumstances the GS seems to be very particular about a good balance. When I replaced my Bridgestones with Michelins I had to take the car back 2 weeks later to rebalance all 4 tires.
I had a flat patched on the right rear about 2 weeks ago and I did notice that the tire had moved about 1/2" from the mark they made when they put it back on, but it doesn't seem to be causing any vibration (at least up to 90 mph). Since then it seems to be maintaining its position on the rim.
Marty
Almost a year later, after complaining to the dealer several times, they installed a mod to my front end (not sure what they replaced -- I seem to recall it was a bushing) under warranty that solved both the front-end vibration and what I termed "wandering" of the car. Since then no problems.
Under the best of circumstances the GS seems to be very particular about a good balance. When I replaced my Bridgestones with Michelins I had to take the car back 2 weeks later to rebalance all 4 tires.
I had a flat patched on the right rear about 2 weeks ago and I did notice that the tire had moved about 1/2" from the mark they made when they put it back on, but it doesn't seem to be causing any vibration (at least up to 90 mph). Since then it seems to be maintaining its position on the rim.
Marty
#13
my experience
maybe this will add another perspective.
i have the stock (non-chrome) 17" potenzas on a 99 gs4.
the ride was fine and dandy until about 12K miles. they said these tires wore out fast, so i wasn't too surprised when the ride started to get lumpy. by lumpy i mean a speed sensitive "whoomp" sound. this lumpy tire sensation only translated into a noticeable steering wheel vibration at around 17K miles.
i've had my rims and alignment checked by dealer and again by my mechanic. they were fine. at no point did my steering pull. the lumpy sound would appear at around 20-25mph and 55-65mph, but no where else.
at around 15K miles, it became apparent what was occuring: the tires were wearing unevenly, with the insides much more worn and "chopped." i had an extra rotation done to see if the sensation moved with the tires. it did (as realmarty alluded to). the conclusion we reached is that the nature of the soft rubber, combined with the aggressive toe/camber of the spec alignment, compounded with a lot of straight/fast highway driving (80mph...shhh), ate up the insides of my tires from "plow."
in sum, my issue has never been a static front end vibration issue (like bob908), nor a repetitive sound (like chicane). i have not had my car balanced like bitkahuna (although now that i'm aware of that type of thing i'll be looking for it).
basically, i've been on the lookout for bent rims, bad balance, bad alignment, soft rubber. since the first 3 have repeatedly checked out, i only suspect the potenzas for wearing badly (which may be normal for this tire). whether this wear is symptomatic of some other issue will have to wait until my new tires.
now that i'm aware of the phenomenon presented here (e.g. slippage) i'll be paying very close attention when i get new rubber this month; i'm at 19K miles and my potenzas are nearly dead.
i have the stock (non-chrome) 17" potenzas on a 99 gs4.
the ride was fine and dandy until about 12K miles. they said these tires wore out fast, so i wasn't too surprised when the ride started to get lumpy. by lumpy i mean a speed sensitive "whoomp" sound. this lumpy tire sensation only translated into a noticeable steering wheel vibration at around 17K miles.
i've had my rims and alignment checked by dealer and again by my mechanic. they were fine. at no point did my steering pull. the lumpy sound would appear at around 20-25mph and 55-65mph, but no where else.
at around 15K miles, it became apparent what was occuring: the tires were wearing unevenly, with the insides much more worn and "chopped." i had an extra rotation done to see if the sensation moved with the tires. it did (as realmarty alluded to). the conclusion we reached is that the nature of the soft rubber, combined with the aggressive toe/camber of the spec alignment, compounded with a lot of straight/fast highway driving (80mph...shhh), ate up the insides of my tires from "plow."
in sum, my issue has never been a static front end vibration issue (like bob908), nor a repetitive sound (like chicane). i have not had my car balanced like bitkahuna (although now that i'm aware of that type of thing i'll be looking for it).
basically, i've been on the lookout for bent rims, bad balance, bad alignment, soft rubber. since the first 3 have repeatedly checked out, i only suspect the potenzas for wearing badly (which may be normal for this tire). whether this wear is symptomatic of some other issue will have to wait until my new tires.
now that i'm aware of the phenomenon presented here (e.g. slippage) i'll be paying very close attention when i get new rubber this month; i'm at 19K miles and my potenzas are nearly dead.
#14
I have a 2000 GS400 with the factory (non-Chrome) 17" wheels and have experienced the vibration from about a month after I bought the vehicle. I assumed it was the balancing on the wheels and tires also. I then lowered my car with coilovers and the problem wasnt as evident, but occurs at a higher speed and doesnt occur all the time. It would either occur at a certain speed/road condition, so I would slow down quite a bit and then reaccellerate, sometimes the vibration would go away and sometimes now. A month later I changed to 19" wheels and tires and still had the problem. The vibration for me is not really consistant and is often speed and road dependent. It is a pain when it occurs, I have owned a 94 supra twin turbo and have NEVER had any problem like this, odd that I now get a GS400 and this happens. I havent put hub-centic rings on since I have put the 19" wheels, so there might be a reason why that vibration is still felt for me, but as the for the factory 17" wheels, they should be hub-centric to begin with. I plan to get another alignment to double check everything again.
#15
braking
come to think of it...i do feel steering vibration under harsh braking -- say from 60mph. again, i have blamed my nearly worn out potenzas, cause it's a recent phenomenon, coincident with the lumpy tire noise and uneven tire wear.
is the vibration you all are alluding to isolated in the steering or felt throughout the chassis? does it feel like the resonance that accompanies a bad wheel balance, or is it a different sensation?
with low profiles, you feel a lot of the road. are you certain it's not the road you're feeling? is the vibration consistently speed-sensitive or variable?
is the vibration you all are alluding to isolated in the steering or felt throughout the chassis? does it feel like the resonance that accompanies a bad wheel balance, or is it a different sensation?
with low profiles, you feel a lot of the road. are you certain it's not the road you're feeling? is the vibration consistently speed-sensitive or variable?