BrianW1122

Hi all.. this kinda long, but bare with me,


I decided about a month ago that I was going to most likely sell my '95 LS400 for another GS. I had a '99 GS400 before I sold it about a year ago. I was having some debt problems, so I decided to go for an older LS temporarily until I got back on my feet. Well, i'm back on my feet and I really would like something newer. So I decided to go dealer hopping today and check out ALL different kinds of cars in addition to the '04 GS430 which is of course my top choice - I stopped by Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, BMW, MB, and Audi. I didnt test drive anything, but I just wanted to basically look at all the different models up close before I did anything else. I looked at the new LS430, the GS430, the S-Class, the E-Class, the Q45, 5-series, the A8L, and the new 2004 TL.
Now, i know that the TL really isnt in the same "class" as the others, but I heard many good things about it and the pics online look edgreat, so I wanted to check it out as well.
Here were my impressions:

S-Class: Very nice exterior. The steering wheel felt very cheap - almost like whiffle ball plastic. The cup holder was hidden somewhere in some trap door buried near the center console - strange to say the least. Also, there was a cup holder by the feet of where my passenger would be sitting ? I don't get it. For 70k plus, really I was not impressed. I'm very big on a nice interior and this was not one of my favorites.
Although the light blueish-grey leather went nice with the dark blue metallic paint color - I almost wish Lexus would offer this color.

E-Class: Again, very nice exterior. However, I think the back looks more like a Ford Tauras than a Mercedes-Benz should look like. But I did like the front quite a bit. Looked very classy I thought. The interior though was not up to par. Looked a bit more my style than the S and overall I felt more comfortable sitting in the E versus the S, but it was still missing the "ambiance" factor.

5 Series: Ugh, where do i begin ? Can someone please explain to me why these cars sell so much ? SO Ugly. The interior was depressing and boring and looked like something that should have been produced in the late 70's. Seemed very old-fashioned and dated. Also, I need to feel a stick in my hand as i'm driving. Whether it's an automatic or a manual, I need to feel something. Sorry, but I just cant hold onto some strange-looking *** placed so uncomfortably near my armrest. The leather felt hard and looked cheap and the seats were not very comfortable at all. I don't care how sporty the car is to drive, if i'm looking at blandness all around me and am not comfortable, i'm not gonna be a happy driver. The only nice part of the BMW was when I turned away from it and left the dealership.

A8L: I gotta say, If I was ever gonna jump ship from a Japanese make to a German make, the Audi would definately without a doubt be my choice. The exterior of the A8L was GORGEOUS. From every angle it looked luxurious, classy and sporty all at the same time. The model they had in the showroom was white with beige leather interior. Very nice combo. Sitting in the car, I felt pretty comfortable. The seats seemed softer and more supportive than the MB or BMW and the overall feeling I got was more to my taste than the other 2 german-mobiles. However, I started noticing a trend between all 3. For example, the armrest on all 3 had a slit in the middle of all of them and opened left to right vs. up and down. A few other things also I noticed that were similar. Definately the nicest of all the high-end German cars, but still not my favorite.

Infiniti Q45: I love the exterior of this car. Some people hate it, but I like it. It's BIG and I love big cars. The only thing I would probably change would be to give it a dual exhaust in the rear instead of the single. The interior I loved alot also. From a distance I looked at this car's inside, and was like "wow what a nice interior". However, after close inspection, I noticed a few things. First off, the steering wheel seemed a little cheap to me. I don't know what it is, but I kept noticing the same thing with most of the cars I sat in. They just seemed light and cheap compared to my LS and former GS. The center console is very unique in the Q which I like, but I still dont know if I like the analog clock staring me in the face all the time. The other thing was that the armrest was not of very high quality. Flimsy is probably the best way to describe it. My LS's is strong, thick, and hefty. Both passenger and driver could rest their arms on it at the same time. On the Q, I don't even think I could place my arm on it, it's so small. Also, the seats were not nearly as comfortable or supportive as my "9" year old car. Very surprising to say the least. I would still like to test drive it though - to really check out the 340 horses myself.

LS430: I gotta say, I was a little disappointed with this car. Don't kill me for saying this guys, but I can really understand now why people say that this car has no soul. Just sitting in it, I was like "is this it?". The seats were comfy, yes. The features were impressive, yes. The new exterior style I think is a major step up. But, something was still missing. I didnt feel comfortable in it like i do with my 95. The quality of the materials, while alot better than those in the German cars (except for maybe the A8), did not seem as good as in my 1995 ! I know that sounds ridiculous, but even the doors seemed lighter to me, more fragile. Didnt seem as strong as I expected them to be. I was expecting a solid rock, and it just didnt appear that way. Again, all I was going by were visual appearance, not test drive. Maybe if i drove it, I would feel differently, i dunno.

GS430: I loved it then, and I love it now. Wasn't crazy about the color combinations they had in the showroom, but they were still REALLY nice. My 99 GS400 was black with beige leather. I think I would want a darker interior this time, maybe grey. Although I wouldnt mind owning this car again, I really might want something different. I can't wait to see the '05 next week. I just hope that visually, it does not disappoint. If it's anything like the '05 M45, there's no way i'm passing it up.

Acura TL: Ok, call me crazy, but this was the nicest, most appealing car that I saw today. I know it's not even in the same league as all the other cars I mentioned, but it definately was the nicest. Just sitting in the car was amazing. The dash is lit up in blue which i love, the center console seemed carefully planned out, and the colors and materials seemed top notch. The seats, while not as supportive as my 2 Lex's, were still pretty comfortable. For the price and for what you get, this car really seems worth it. I'm not crazy about switching from an V8 to a V6 or from rear-wheel drive to front wheel drive, but I guess i'll have to test drive it to really see the difference. Although at 270HP, it's already stronger than my 95's 265HP, and it IS a lighter car, so it may even seem stronger than my LS.

I know you probably shouldn't base a car strickly on its looks, but they are important to me. And if the performance is there as well, i'm sold. The TL seemed the most modern up-to-date styling with all the luxury features that you could want (heated seats, traction, XM radio, etc etc). For 34K, it may be hard to pass up. I still wont make up my mind until I see the new GS, the new M45 in person, and of course test drive all of them =)

What do u guys think about the TL vs. the GS300 ? has anyone here driven both of them ? any input would be great..

Thanks

Neo

iTrader: (3)

The thing that struck me right away once I finished the write up (good job BTW ) was that you start with describing your experiences with each car based on each car's merits (or lack of). When you got to the TL, you started similarly but then you went into its value. If price was not a factor (and your writeup of the previous cars did not take that into consideration) would you still think as highly of the TL despite your objection to it being FWD? What if the TL was priced $15k more to put it more inline with the GS430? Would the car still standup to its competitors on your list?

Of course in real life, value is important (to some anyway ). If that is a consideration, then you should make that an upfront decision point in your mind. Just an observation.

As for the TL-GS comparison, I am glad you are waiting for the new GS. You are comparing a car in its final model year with one that is a brand new redesign.

Have fun with your test drives.

LS4fun

Nice writeup...follow your heart then...get the TL.... (looks like you did your homework)!

bluelex

i agree, go with u'r gut feeling...

dseag2

Thanks for the comparison. After considering and test driving many of the same cars you did, I felt pretty much the same way. For me, there is nothing like the "old" Lexus interior style and materials. The mid- to late- '90s LS and GS are hard to beat when it comes to substance. That's why I went with a GS300 a few months back, which is also my second GS in a string of cars.

Re: the TL, I also think it is a great car for the money, but I prefer RWD. It is also interesting that you mentioned the seats. There was a recent post in CL from someone who traded a brand new '04 TL for a GS after a very short time because the seats were unbearably uncomfortable. I know everyone has their own preferences, but you may want to check out an Acura owners' forum to see if this is a common problem.

Re: the A8, I'm sure it is beautiful, but IMHO the service to back it up is definitely not worth the price. The service I received on my A6 4.2, which was almost $20K less expensive than an A8, wasn't even acceptable for a much cheaper car.

I've only offered my opinions. What is important to others on this forum may not be your priorities. You should make a list of things that you want in a car... style, sound system, reliability, handling, power, etc... in order of priority, and go from there. You may find that the GS is still the right car.

amy011079

one thing always pops in my head when i hear acura, and its all the tranny problems that they have had the past few model years. i would be very wary of that. i know that they are supposedly fixing the issue but you never know. and not to mention i am biased as heck, i love lexus.

BrianW1122

Neo, I see what you mean about price being an issue. But It really isn't that much of an issue with me. I would gladly pay 10-15k more for a car that offered more features and more performance as well as luxury. Just by my first impressions of the TL, it seemed to offer just as many features (and even a few more) as my current 95 LS and my 99 GS (minus the V8 engine and rear wheel drive of course). So, for me to justify paying the extra money on a GS or pre-owned LS, I would really need more to convince myself it was worth it. I'm sure if the TL came standard with a 325HP V8 and rear wheel drive and was priced say around 42K, I would most likely get it. It's a brand new style and it offers all of the major features I would be looking to have in a car. So, basically i'm trying to rationalize the differences between the 2 brands besides just the size of the engine and how the wheels move. I've heard some things about the tranny's not being so great in the TL, so that kinda worries me. Reliability is a major factor in my decision. I would assume that the quality would be up to par with any Lexus, but since i've never owned an Acura before, i'm not so sure. Comfort is another issue. If I don't like the seats and the way i "feel" while driving it, i'm not gonna be happy either. I think test driving the TL and the GS300 back-to-back would probably be the best way to know. This way I could get a feel for both and really compare the two.

BrianW1122

dseag2.. I sorta felt that when I sat in the newer GS430 and 300 that it seemed a little different to me than what I remembered my '99 GS400 being like. my '99 seemed solid and sturdy and I felt like i was sitting in a real "luxury" car. I've heard some speculation that the quality of the materials used from 98-2000 GS's were of a higher standard than 2001-up. Is this true ? has anyone actually driven both to really compare the differences (if any) between them ? If i did decide on getting another GS with the current body style, I would most likely opt for an '02 or '03. But if the quality and feel is better on the 98's - 2000, than i would most likely get a low mileage 2000.

gs400998

I havn't driven the new TL but I have a 02 TL Type-S. I was looking for a new car at the time and want a FWD for winter. The Type-S straight line acceleration is fast but is still slower than my GS4. Both new TL and 02-03 Type-S have more HP so would be quicker than GS3. Acura has offered free extended warranty on my TL A/T because many TL owners have reported an early tranny failure. I am expecting to see more AWD Japanese vehicles in the coming years and hopefully the new GS.

doug_999

Several friends have owned pre 2001 GS400s. They all were trouble free and solid.

My 2003 GS430 rattles like crazy and has been to the dealer for repairs numerous times. I have heard more problems from 2001-2003 owners than pre 2001 owners. My last Consumer Reports issue actually has the 2002 GS being BELOW average reliability. The ONLY Lexus model to receive that rating.

So if I were you, I would stick with a low mileage 2000 if you decide to get another GS. I also would NEVER spend $15K more for the 04 GS over the 04 TL. In fact, I don't think I would spend $5K. A V8 and RWD are not worth it because in almost every other aspect the TL meets or exceeds the GS (and in features, it blows it away). I wouldn't worry too much about the trans issues either - very isolated in spite of everybody having a friend who has a friend who knows someone who had a trans failure with a Honda/Acura product.

D2-AUTOSPORT

Great thread guys, lots of good info!

Go with your gut man, I have to give it to ya, you are not afraid to test out a PLETHORA of cars!! Cross shopping TLs with Sclass M/Bs?? You are a diversity agent!!!

BrianW1122

Nice post..
Yeah, i heard there have been some problems with the 2001-up GS's, which is one of the reasons why i'm starting to look at some other cars. The extra $$ doesn't seem worth it to me. I could probably get a really low mileage 2000 GS400 for the same price as the new TL, but thats just it - it would be a USED car vs. a NEW car. I've never owned a brand new car before, so that would definately be a plus. But again, i'm not gonna rush into anything just yet. I wanna see the new '05 GS on tuesday and the new M45 (also i hear a new '05 RL is due out soon too). If the new GS has all the features of the new TL plus added performance (350+HP, all wheel drive,etc), then it would be hard to pass up. We shall see. I just can't wait to see this thing. I hope it doesn't disappoint.

Thanks for all your opinions..

mikeyboy

The reasons the seats in the TL are so comfortable are because of teh extremely soft leather(or should i say leather). ITS NOT REAL LEATHER! You might as well buy a maxima because they are more comfortable and faster than the TLs, believe me i am a used car dealer and i have driven most cars on the road. If you are planning on gettin a TL just try out a maxima first and see what you like. Again, those Acuras do have a few transmission problems but with the 100k warranty these days its not really something to worry about but rather something to look forward to(HAH). Believe me when i tell you the seats are not all that comfortable, although they do seem to be big,beautiful, and luxurious, you will grow to hate them. Althought i am a car dealer i still have my personal car which i usually change every 6-12 months. I recently had the 99 528 which i had for a year, now i have my GS which is anywhere from 100-150 times better then the 528. When i pondered about the TL i had in my lot I realized...from a bmw to an acura....what the hell am i thinkin, i might as well shoot myself because thats degrading. O well, if you like the acura better then i cant in anyway change your mind but I'm just giving you some suggestions

mikeyboy

sorry for the typo's guys i type fast and carelessly!

dseag2

Just wanted to offer input on two questions...

ACURA RELIABILITY:
I owned a '99 Acura TL when it was first introduced, and I never had one problem over a 2 1/2 year period, so from my experience they are no less reliable than a Lexus

QUALITY OF '01-'04 GS:
I owned an '01 GS300 and never had any problems with it or with the quality of materials in the year that I owned it. My current '03 GS300 is even better than the '01. I really don't think the perception that the '98-'00 GS's were better is correct. Although I've never had personal experience with those models, I can say that the materials used in my '03 GS are every bit as nice as those in my father's '99 LS400 and much nicer than those in my former '99 SC300 (wood, leather, etc.)