Comparing My Ultra Luxury to 2019 Audi A6
07-04-19, 06:45 PM
#31
Lexus Fanatic
The key word is “under light loads”
ive shopped the A6 multiple times, going back to 2013. It’s always been considerably more than the ES...that’s not new. I very nearly bought a $69,000 Prestige A6 in 2013.
These two cars are just not in the same league or class. It’s not about thenA6 being on a pedestal, it’s just that it’s a significantly costlier car in a different segment. Not comparable.
ive shopped the A6 multiple times, going back to 2013. It’s always been considerably more than the ES...that’s not new. I very nearly bought a $69,000 Prestige A6 in 2013.
These two cars are just not in the same league or class. It’s not about thenA6 being on a pedestal, it’s just that it’s a significantly costlier car in a different segment. Not comparable.
07-05-19, 07:10 AM
#32
Pole Position
Can I just say that I appreciate hearing the detailed comparisons. Why should I care what “league” or class these different cars are in. Most of us probably aren’t shopping those cars actively or we would be participating on their forums instead of a Lexus forum. I also don’t need validation of my purchases, even though I may be enthusiastic about Toyota/Lexus products based on my needs, experiences and personal budget. There are many excellent brands out there and I enjoy hearing how they compare, even if they may be in a little different price segment.
Thank you to AllinCLE for sharing your observations.
Thank you to AllinCLE for sharing your observations.
The following 5 users liked this post by TechNut:
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07-05-19, 04:08 PM
#33
As a long time member (2006) and reader of this forum, I find comparisons between vehicles whether they compete directly or not, interesting and completely valid. One thing to understand is that just because two things are not in the same price category does not necessarily mean that the higher priced option is better in everything and cannot be cross-shopped.
In fact, back in 2012 I remember being told by some of the same members on this thread that the ES is not cross-shopped with the 5 series or the other german midsizers when this was exactly what I was doing. I went with the ES over the 5 series for comfort, reliability and better safety tech implementation (at the time).
To say that the A6 isn't cross shopped with the ES is funny coming from SW17LS when he was shopping an ES lease in 2012, a few months before he "almost bought an A6":
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/es-...ting-3.html#35
In fact, back in 2012 I remember being told by some of the same members on this thread that the ES is not cross-shopped with the 5 series or the other german midsizers when this was exactly what I was doing. I went with the ES over the 5 series for comfort, reliability and better safety tech implementation (at the time).
To say that the A6 isn't cross shopped with the ES is funny coming from SW17LS when he was shopping an ES lease in 2012, a few months before he "almost bought an A6":
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/es-...ting-3.html#35
This is hilarious...just got sent the lease breakdown...
$2,200 off MSRP...which is good. BUT...the residual is calculated incorrectly, $2k low, and I'm somehow being charged $1,400 in "capital additions" as well as looks like $3k in negative equity on the trade even though the trade value I was given is equal to my payoff per LFS. Why would I accept any negative equity on my 2010 lease? I'd just ride it till the end of the lease and give it back...
No wonder the payment is out of whack! Ridiculous! I've got a call in to the guy to go through this line by line and just see if they're stupid or if they're trying to screw me over. On top of that...when I run these figures through my lease calculator even as they are laid out, with the residual as only 56% instead of 60%, and all the fees I only get a payment of $716.69...not the $750 they are quoting. All done right with the proper residual and even the negative equity and all it should be $669.75 as per my calculations. At $669.75 I would do it.
On top of that, one of the other dealers just told me after a 4 day wait that their policy is not to give any price quotes or sample leases over the phone or email. I told them I guess I'll do business with one of the other 6 dealers in the area and thanked them for their time.
$2,200 off MSRP...which is good. BUT...the residual is calculated incorrectly, $2k low, and I'm somehow being charged $1,400 in "capital additions" as well as looks like $3k in negative equity on the trade even though the trade value I was given is equal to my payoff per LFS. Why would I accept any negative equity on my 2010 lease? I'd just ride it till the end of the lease and give it back...
No wonder the payment is out of whack! Ridiculous! I've got a call in to the guy to go through this line by line and just see if they're stupid or if they're trying to screw me over. On top of that...when I run these figures through my lease calculator even as they are laid out, with the residual as only 56% instead of 60%, and all the fees I only get a payment of $716.69...not the $750 they are quoting. All done right with the proper residual and even the negative equity and all it should be $669.75 as per my calculations. At $669.75 I would do it.
On top of that, one of the other dealers just told me after a 4 day wait that their policy is not to give any price quotes or sample leases over the phone or email. I told them I guess I'll do business with one of the other 6 dealers in the area and thanked them for their time.
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kalel2127 (07-05-19)
07-06-19, 06:16 AM
#34
Lexus Fanatic
In fact, back in 2012 I remember being told by some of the same members on this thread that the ES is not cross-shopped with the 5 series or the other german midsizers when this was exactly what I was doing. I went with the ES over the 5 series for comfort, reliability and better safety tech implementation (at the time).
To say that the A6 isn't cross shopped with the ES is funny coming from SW17LS when he was shopping an ES lease in 2012, a few months before he "almost bought an A6":
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/es-...ting-3.html#35
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/es-...ting-3.html#35
I think many people go to the ES because it provides the size of those more expensive cars without the expense. I know I did, but the "without the expense" is really important. If the ES were as expensive as those other cars buying one wouldnt make any sense. The A6 starts where an absolutely totally loaded ES comes in, about $55k. And at $55k that A6 is stripped out compared to that ES. You have to option an A6 to around $70k to get to where a UL ES is in option and feature content and you still lack the upgraded leather, etc as the OP mentioned. Very few people seriously debate between cars that are $20k different in price
It becomes about what you want, do you want the car itself and the higher level of build, better drive, more sophisticated suspension, etc of a base A6 or the feature content of a loaded ES? I don't fault anyone for choosing the feature content...
Last edited by SW17LS; 07-06-19 at 06:25 AM.
07-06-19, 09:07 AM
#35
And the fact that the ES was $20,000 cheaper than a comparable 5 series had nothing to do with that decision?
I was shopping for an ES lease back in 2012 to replace my 2010 ES, until I decided to upgrade and shop in the class above. I was comparing the A6 against the GS, which is what I ultimately got. Once I made the decision to consider cars in that much higher price point I no longer considered the ES.
I think many people go to the ES because it provides the size of those more expensive cars without the expense. I know I did, but the "without the expense" is really important. If the ES were as expensive as those other cars buying one wouldnt make any sense. The A6 starts where an absolutely totally loaded ES comes in, about $55k. And at $55k that A6 is stripped out compared to that ES. You have to option an A6 to around $70k to get to where a UL ES is in option and feature content and you still lack the upgraded leather, etc as the OP mentioned. Very few people seriously debate between cars that are $20k different in price
It becomes about what you want, do you want the car itself and the higher level of build, better drive, more sophisticated suspension, etc of a base A6 or the feature content of a loaded ES? I don't fault anyone for choosing the feature content...
I was shopping for an ES lease back in 2012 to replace my 2010 ES, until I decided to upgrade and shop in the class above. I was comparing the A6 against the GS, which is what I ultimately got. Once I made the decision to consider cars in that much higher price point I no longer considered the ES.
I think many people go to the ES because it provides the size of those more expensive cars without the expense. I know I did, but the "without the expense" is really important. If the ES were as expensive as those other cars buying one wouldnt make any sense. The A6 starts where an absolutely totally loaded ES comes in, about $55k. And at $55k that A6 is stripped out compared to that ES. You have to option an A6 to around $70k to get to where a UL ES is in option and feature content and you still lack the upgraded leather, etc as the OP mentioned. Very few people seriously debate between cars that are $20k different in price
It becomes about what you want, do you want the car itself and the higher level of build, better drive, more sophisticated suspension, etc of a base A6 or the feature content of a loaded ES? I don't fault anyone for choosing the feature content...
Also, I think everyone has different taste when it comes to build quality and luxury feel in vehicles. At the recent auto show I was able to freely look at and sit in A LOT of different cars. Every manufacturer was there, from $20k Honda compacts to $200k Mercedes SUVs and Coupes. The two cars that gave a true feeling of luxury at any price were the LC500 and LS500. To me, they felt much more expensive on the inside than any other car there. I'd take the built quality, drive, suspension, etc. of those $100k Lexus cars over $200k Mercedes or $150k Audi any day.
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07-06-19, 04:46 PM
#36
Lexus Fanatic
This statement does not apply to me personally. I owned a '13 GS350 F Sport and decided against buying another because I wanted something more comfortable with less maintenance. The '19 ES350 F Sport is miles ahead of my '13 GS350 F Sport in ride and noise comfort. The GS also went through tires and brakes pretty fast. The GS was actually worse on brakes than the Corvette, and more expensive to replace! Audi never came into the equation because of maintenance and reliability concerns. It's the same reason I am hesitant to buy a BMW or Mercedes too. All of those factors were above price for me.
You mention cost of maintenance, theres cost again. Cost is a very important part of the decision to buy an ES, or any other Lexus vehicle but especially the ES.
Your ES is no doubt softer and quieter than your GS, my GS was a luxury model with 18 inch wheels which helped the ride and double paned glass which helped with noise. The GS is probably the "least comfortable" car in that class though, 5 Series, E Class, A6 are all softer and more comfortable than the GS. Your ES is nowhere near as dynamic or as solid handling as your GS though. While I prefer a ride biased car, I really enjoyed my GS.
The two cars that gave a true feeling of luxury at any price were the LC500 and LS500. To me, they felt much more expensive on the inside than any other car there. I'd take the built quality, drive, suspension, etc. of those $100k Lexus cars over $200k Mercedes or $150k Audi any day.
07-07-19, 08:36 AM
#37
Intermediate
FWIW, Costco just announced a special limited time program on Audi sedans, I believe it was 8% off MSRP, plus any national/local incentives.
Last edited by dklanecky1; 07-08-19 at 07:09 AM.
07-07-19, 09:10 AM
#38
My GS was no worse on tires or brakes than any of my other Lexus cars, ES included. Even so, brakes on a Lexus are cheap. I just had new rotors and pads put on the LS and the parts were a whopping $147. Just don't use the dealer, the dealer wants $1000 to do front pads and I was out the door with my mechanic for under $400. Having owned the ES and the GS, the GS is no more expensive to maintain than the ES, certainly within 100k miles. When they get older than that the GS has a more sophisticated suspension so parts there will be more. Even with the LS, its not really any more expensive to maintain than the ES or the GS. Again, suspension components are the risk factor but thats what makes it ride the way it does.
You mention cost of maintenance, theres cost again. Cost is a very important part of the decision to buy an ES, or any other Lexus vehicle but especially the ES.
Your ES is no doubt softer and quieter than your GS, my GS was a luxury model with 18 inch wheels which helped the ride and double paned glass which helped with noise. The GS is probably the "least comfortable" car in that class though, 5 Series, E Class, A6 are all softer and more comfortable than the GS. Your ES is nowhere near as dynamic or as solid handling as your GS though. While I prefer a ride biased car, I really enjoyed my GS.
The LS and LC are very nice, but there are a lot of really nice cars out there. I love my LS, but if you gave me a choice of a bunch of cars for free, the $200k Mercedes and the $150k Audi would win.
You mention cost of maintenance, theres cost again. Cost is a very important part of the decision to buy an ES, or any other Lexus vehicle but especially the ES.
Your ES is no doubt softer and quieter than your GS, my GS was a luxury model with 18 inch wheels which helped the ride and double paned glass which helped with noise. The GS is probably the "least comfortable" car in that class though, 5 Series, E Class, A6 are all softer and more comfortable than the GS. Your ES is nowhere near as dynamic or as solid handling as your GS though. While I prefer a ride biased car, I really enjoyed my GS.
The LS and LC are very nice, but there are a lot of really nice cars out there. I love my LS, but if you gave me a choice of a bunch of cars for free, the $200k Mercedes and the $150k Audi would win.
So we're both right
GS F Sport maintenance >> ES F Sport maintenance
GS base/luxury maintenance = ES base/luxury maintenance
You are right about the drive too... the GS F Sport was a great driving car. It handled great for a sedan and was very balanced. It always gave me great confidence as a driver. It was a great car at the time, but I ultimately got the need for speed and got the Corvette
After getting in and out of that low rider for 3 years I went to the quiet, comfortable ride of the ES lol I still miss the speed though... I hope Lexus puts more power in the ES eventually, or makes the $86k price tag of the GS F worth it by adding some more power and a lot more torque. I personally won't spend that much on a car to get smoked by a Mustang lol
07-07-19, 09:32 AM
#39
Lexus Fanatic
What you mean is the RWD has a staggered tire setup which does increase the cost of tires, but the tradeoff is performance. The RWD car also has better brakes in the front. The F Sport GS is available in RWD or AWD choosing AWD would remove that issue.
The ES doesnt have any of that because its suspension and powertrain setup wouldn't benefit from it the same way the GS does. The F Sport package in the ES is purely for looks with no performance upgrades. Those things though are what put the GS on another level from the ES, in addition to the RWD architecture vs FWD, the more sophisticated suspension setup... What you find is in general, more performance means more cost.
Like I said before, cost is a very important reason why someone would choose the ES. Cost is not nearly as important a consideration for someone who would choose an A6...or a GS...or a 5 Series...thats the whole reason why the cars are not comparable.
The ES doesnt have any of that because its suspension and powertrain setup wouldn't benefit from it the same way the GS does. The F Sport package in the ES is purely for looks with no performance upgrades. Those things though are what put the GS on another level from the ES, in addition to the RWD architecture vs FWD, the more sophisticated suspension setup... What you find is in general, more performance means more cost.
Like I said before, cost is a very important reason why someone would choose the ES. Cost is not nearly as important a consideration for someone who would choose an A6...or a GS...or a 5 Series...thats the whole reason why the cars are not comparable.
07-07-19, 10:34 AM
#40
Lexus Test Driver
You're right, a GS Luxury will not require more maintenance, but it has no 'special' parts. The GS F Sport has different tires (RWD) and brakes that required more maintenance. The ES F Sport does not have different tires nor brakes, so there is no added maintenance with the F Sport package. I was not trying to link this to cost, though I did mention cost as a side note because of the interesting comparison of a 300hp sedan being more expensive to maintain than a 460hp sports car. For me, it is because the dealership is 125 miles round trip and I want to minimize visits. While we're on the topic of cost, Lexus uses an odd sized tire on the GS F Sport (RWD) that is more expensive. Even quickly going to Tire Rack right now, a set of Michelin Pilot Sport 4S for a 2013-2019 Lexus GS350 F Sport is $1,999.96. A larger set of Michelin Pilot Sport 4S for a 467hp 2016-2019 GS F are cheaper at $1,163.96! Small difference, but still annoying that a 311 hp sedan is more expensive than a 467hp sedan built on the same platform!
So we're both right
GS F Sport maintenance >> ES F Sport maintenance
GS base/luxury maintenance = ES base/luxury maintenance
You are right about the drive too... the GS F Sport was a great driving car. It handled great for a sedan and was very balanced. It always gave me great confidence as a driver. It was a great car at the time, but I ultimately got the need for speed and got the Corvette After getting in and out of that low rider for 3 years I went to the quiet, comfortable ride of the ES lol I still miss the speed though... I hope Lexus puts more power in the ES eventually, or makes the $86k price tag of the GS F worth it by adding some more power and a lot more torque. I personally won't spend that much on a car to get smoked by a Mustang lol
So we're both right
GS F Sport maintenance >> ES F Sport maintenance
GS base/luxury maintenance = ES base/luxury maintenance
You are right about the drive too... the GS F Sport was a great driving car. It handled great for a sedan and was very balanced. It always gave me great confidence as a driver. It was a great car at the time, but I ultimately got the need for speed and got the Corvette
After getting in and out of that low rider for 3 years I went to the quiet, comfortable ride of the ES lol I still miss the speed though... I hope Lexus puts more power in the ES eventually, or makes the $86k price tag of the GS F worth it by adding some more power and a lot more torque. I personally won't spend that much on a car to get smoked by a Mustang lol
07-07-19, 11:21 AM
#41
07-08-19, 04:08 PM
#42
Instructor
did a right up on the ls 4th gen board today.
didn't want to post the review on the es 7th gen to offend anyone.
anyone looking for a realistic review check out the ls 4th gen forum. there is a new post i wrote in the thread ls460 vs es350
like others have said the car is a nice car but not a 5 series, not a a6 , and not an e class.
safe driving
didn't want to post the review on the es 7th gen to offend anyone.
anyone looking for a realistic review check out the ls 4th gen forum. there is a new post i wrote in the thread ls460 vs es350
like others have said the car is a nice car but not a 5 series, not a a6 , and not an e class.
safe driving
07-08-19, 08:21 PM
#43
did a right up on the ls 4th gen board today.
didn't want to post the review on the es 7th gen to offend anyone.
anyone looking for a realistic review check out the ls 4th gen forum. there is a new post i wrote in the thread ls460 vs es350
like others have said the car is a nice car but not a 5 series, not a a6 , and not an e class.
safe driving
didn't want to post the review on the es 7th gen to offend anyone.
anyone looking for a realistic review check out the ls 4th gen forum. there is a new post i wrote in the thread ls460 vs es350
like others have said the car is a nice car but not a 5 series, not a a6 , and not an e class.
safe driving
Right up?
Read your "review". I found it to be typical of those written by others with an older model LS. Realistic is not what I would call it. It came across as more of a personal opinion from someone looking to nitpick. I do agree that it is not a German car, though. I don't really think Lexus is targeting them anyways.
07-09-19, 08:39 AM
#44
Pole Position
did a right up on the ls 4th gen board today.
didn't want to post the review on the es 7th gen to offend anyone.
anyone looking for a realistic review check out the ls 4th gen forum. there is a new post i wrote in the thread ls460 vs es350
like others have said the car is a nice car but not a 5 series, not a a6 , and not an e class.
safe driving
didn't want to post the review on the es 7th gen to offend anyone.
anyone looking for a realistic review check out the ls 4th gen forum. there is a new post i wrote in the thread ls460 vs es350
like others have said the car is a nice car but not a 5 series, not a a6 , and not an e class.
safe driving
Anyway, your subjective evaluation is clearly your opinion and that's fair enough. Of course, you were also using a base model non-nav ES for your comparison. In my humble opinion, the Audi A6 that started this thread is a much closer comparison to the ES than the LS, which would likely be compared to the Audi A8. It just doesn't seem like a logical comparison. I would also point out that some of your criticisms, such as the placement of the drive mode **** (which I actually dislike as well), would apply to the new LS design as well.
07-09-19, 06:37 PM
#45
Instructor
Right up?
Read your "review". I found it to be typical of those written by others with an older model LS. Realistic is not what I would call it. It came across as more of a personal opinion from someone looking to nitpick. I do agree that it is not a German car, though. I don't really think Lexus is targeting them anyways.
Read your "review". I found it to be typical of those written by others with an older model LS. Realistic is not what I would call it. It came across as more of a personal opinion from someone looking to nitpick. I do agree that it is not a German car, though. I don't really think Lexus is targeting them anyways.
and one of the most picky car afficiandos with a humble core
i respect your thoughts, my opinion is not only spot on, but just picked up my ls460 and drive it home
its night and day having rwd vs fwd,
miss the size of the 2019 es to toss around parking lots etc.
tranny and v6 no match to the tranny and v8 of ls
and the ride is a step above the es350 in refinement etc
no nitpick just one mans opinion like you said
Last edited by mikesrx350; 07-10-19 at 05:07 AM.