All-new 2019 Lexus ES to debut at Beijing Motorshow
04-13-18, 10:12 AM
#136
Lexus Test Driver
I am not expecting anything more of an ES than what it is right now. It will remain the same type of the vehicle, positioned at the same place in the line up with the similar pricing (some packages will push the price further than before)
It's not a GS replacement, it's just an ES like it always has been. Don't hold your breath for any extraordinary driving dynamics or something.
It's not a GS replacement, it's just an ES like it always has been. Don't hold your breath for any extraordinary driving dynamics or something.
Agreed with this 100%. I don't think they would mess with a winning formula --the ES sells too well for the company for them to do anything drastic...its priced right, is roomy and its styling has been conservative compared to other Lexus sedans in the lineup.
The ES is the only sedan other than the discontinued HS that never got an 'F-Sport' treatment although I can completely see them offering it with the 2019 redesign.
The ES is the only sedan other than the discontinued HS that never got an 'F-Sport' treatment although I can completely see them offering it with the 2019 redesign.
Since Toyota is a conservative company, they'll likely just play it safe with the ES and keep what sells.
Dealers all around the country can’t keep the two tone Camry’s XSE’s in stock. Their is a waiting list.
Im pretty sure the ES F Sport will feature two mode adjustable variable dampers which will allow it to handle slightly better. I’m sure it will be very popular as are the F Sport RX models.
Im pretty sure the ES F Sport will feature two mode adjustable variable dampers which will allow it to handle slightly better. I’m sure it will be very popular as are the F Sport RX models.
04-13-18, 02:27 PM
#138
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
i guess but maybe a bit classier. 
lol, and maybe they'll one day have an 'ultimate' f trim and call it the FU trim. 
'looks fast' has always done pretty well. doesn't mean it's not tacky.
well any es today can fly on the highway as long as it doesn't have to TURN too quickly.
There's an RX F Sport, NX F Sport and the upcoming UX F Sport. All 3 are not sporty by any means and all 3 have mediocre power and overall performance. Something tells me an ES F Sport is not out of the realm of possibility and I wouldnt be surprised if it out sports all 3 of those. So I say F to your hearts content Lexus.
04-13-18, 02:27 PM
#139
Lexus Test Driver
04-13-18, 05:42 PM
#140
thanks for sharing all that. 
the ES is just a center target bullseye hit for someone who wants a roomy, comfortable, refined sedan that's extremely reliable, isn't too huge and not very expensive. i call it the perfect realtor car (they have to drive a lot, ferry people around, without looking too flashy, etc.).
the ES is just a center target bullseye hit for someone who wants a roomy, comfortable, refined sedan that's extremely reliable, isn't too huge and not very expensive. i call it the perfect realtor car (they have to drive a lot, ferry people around, without looking too flashy, etc.).
Yea the ES fills in for me. Being I still have the MKS quite, smooth, Fast Rocket, I picked it over the GS.
Meant to post up when I saw you got that G90. I'm Jealous. Its got everything I wanted. My Favorite color too. I just helped my Girl buy a Perfect Condition Kia Optima SXL 2.0T. Kinda in that Family. Congrats on that G90. Nice pick!!!!
Last edited by jgscott; 04-13-18 at 06:05 PM.
04-13-18, 07:02 PM
#141
Lexus Test Driver
I'm not talking about clocks in cars, in any event I doubt any clock in any modern car is automatic. You have to wind automatic clocks.
Go ask a watch enthusiast which is better. Also, what sort of watch is a $30,000 Rolex? Its an automatic watch. You won't find quartz watches over $1,500 in cost or so, everything above that is an automatic watch, automatic watch = quality in the watch world. People say "quartz is better because its more accurate" or "because you don't have to wind it all the time", but watch enthusiasts snicker at that just like car enthusiasts snicker at "FWD cars are better in the snow". In fact...they aren't better in the snow, and can actually be extremely dangerous. Same as the fact that a fine automatic timepiece is far more accurate than a quartz movement.
The analogy to the FWD vs RWD debate is actually pretty spot on. We are way off topic though.
Go ask a watch enthusiast which is better. Also, what sort of watch is a $30,000 Rolex? Its an automatic watch. You won't find quartz watches over $1,500 in cost or so, everything above that is an automatic watch, automatic watch = quality in the watch world. People say "quartz is better because its more accurate" or "because you don't have to wind it all the time", but watch enthusiasts snicker at that just like car enthusiasts snicker at "FWD cars are better in the snow". In fact...they aren't better in the snow, and can actually be extremely dangerous. Same as the fact that a fine automatic timepiece is far more accurate than a quartz movement.
The analogy to the FWD vs RWD debate is actually pretty spot on. We are way off topic though.
Some exceptions apply, but overall in today's car market, RWD is premium cars and FWD in general and pseudo luxury segment.
04-13-18, 08:08 PM
#142
Lexus Champion
04-13-18, 08:32 PM
#143
Lexus Test Driver
Google some videos / reviews on this topic or just drive a RWD car in the snow.
Once a FWD car loses traction - it is not as predictable to control as RWD.
Very hard to countersteer.
The perception of RWD being poor in snow is due to the fact most RWD cars are Performance oriented and have low profile summer tires which have poor traction. Put on a decent tire with a bigger sidewall and you can drive them anywhere.
S500 used to be RWD only until 15 years ago and somehow nobody ever complained it did badly in snow.
Modern traction systems are much better as well.
Once a FWD car loses traction - it is not as predictable to control as RWD.
Very hard to countersteer.
The perception of RWD being poor in snow is due to the fact most RWD cars are Performance oriented and have low profile summer tires which have poor traction. Put on a decent tire with a bigger sidewall and you can drive them anywhere.
S500 used to be RWD only until 15 years ago and somehow nobody ever complained it did badly in snow.
Modern traction systems are much better as well.
04-13-18, 09:27 PM
#144
Lexus Fanatic
RNM beat me to it!
The issue is that with FWD your drive wheels and steering wheels are the same. So, if you loose acceleration traction, you also loose the ability to steer and vice versa. FWD cars are easier to get started from a stop than RWD, but that’s where their benefit ends, everything else is a detriment. Having experienced my current RWD car with modern traction control and skid control in the snow, I really see no benefit to a FWD car in the snow at all.
The issue is that with FWD your drive wheels and steering wheels are the same. So, if you loose acceleration traction, you also loose the ability to steer and vice versa. FWD cars are easier to get started from a stop than RWD, but that’s where their benefit ends, everything else is a detriment. Having experienced my current RWD car with modern traction control and skid control in the snow, I really see no benefit to a FWD car in the snow at all.
04-13-18, 10:22 PM
#145
Lexus Champion
You said "extremely dangerous" what you describe is nothing of the sort. A RWD car can spin when it has traction issues. Having driven many winters in both FWD and RWD cars and trucks FWD wins easily. BTW if you are going to tout traction and stability control in a RWD platform same applies to FWD.
04-14-18, 12:27 AM
#146
Lexus Test Driver
Google some videos / reviews on this topic or just drive a RWD car in the snow.
Once a FWD car loses traction - it is not as predictable to control as RWD.
Very hard to countersteer.
The perception of RWD being poor in snow is due to the fact most RWD cars are Performance oriented and have low profile summer tires which have poor traction. Put on a decent tire with a bigger sidewall and you can drive them anywhere.
S500 used to be RWD only until 15 years ago and somehow nobody ever complained it did badly in snow.
Modern traction systems are much better as well.
Once a FWD car loses traction - it is not as predictable to control as RWD.
Very hard to countersteer.
The perception of RWD being poor in snow is due to the fact most RWD cars are Performance oriented and have low profile summer tires which have poor traction. Put on a decent tire with a bigger sidewall and you can drive them anywhere.
S500 used to be RWD only until 15 years ago and somehow nobody ever complained it did badly in snow.
Modern traction systems are much better as well.
The point is: FWD with all-season tires on snow/rain conditions will less likely lose traction than a RWD with all-season tires. While its true that RWD with snow-tires might be better, a FWD with snow tires is better than a RWD with snow tires. Compare the same tires to both drive-trains.
While its true that a RWD will be easier to maintain control during a slip, you also make too big of an assumption that average everyday people know to counter-act the rear-end kicking out for a RWD car. I clock in about 4-5 track hours per month since last year and I still don't counter-acting a rear-end kick perfectly. Its not that simple, especially, when a driver is in a state of panic of a slip, fear of crashing and at high speeds.
RNM beat me to it!
The issue is that with FWD your drive wheels and steering wheels are the same. So, if you loose acceleration traction, you also loose the ability to steer and vice versa. FWD cars are easier to get started from a stop than RWD, but that’s where their benefit ends, everything else is a detriment. Having experienced my current RWD car with modern traction control and skid control in the snow, I really see no benefit to a FWD car in the snow at all.
The issue is that with FWD your drive wheels and steering wheels are the same. So, if you loose acceleration traction, you also loose the ability to steer and vice versa. FWD cars are easier to get started from a stop than RWD, but that’s where their benefit ends, everything else is a detriment. Having experienced my current RWD car with modern traction control and skid control in the snow, I really see no benefit to a FWD car in the snow at all.
Benefit 1) The drive-wheels are at the front and with the engine being on top - it gives the front wheels more traction since its heavier up in the front. This allows FWD to have more grip/traction in the snow/rain/ice.
Benefit 2) Better fuel economy
Benefit 3) Cheaper
You said "extremely dangerous" what you describe is nothing of the sort. A RWD car can spin when it has traction issues. Having driven many winters in both FWD and RWD cars and trucks FWD wins easily. BTW if you are going to tout traction and stability control in a RWD platform same applies to FWD.
If a hellcat can lose traction with traction control on while on dry tarmac, a much weaker RWD car will lose traction in the snow.
04-14-18, 12:35 AM
#147
Lexus Champion
Was going to post exactly this. I've done a pirouette on ice in a RWD car, there was basically nothing I could do. I've never had that happen in FWD car, in fact it is quite hard to do donuts in a FWD car.
04-14-18, 05:54 AM
#148
Lexus Fanatic
I have owned FWD, RWD, and AWD vehicles in my lifetime. My experience over many winters pretty much mirrors yours....on snow and ice, all else equal, AWD is tops, then FWD, then RWD in that order. That doesn't necessarily mean that all RWD vehicles s**k, especially with traction/stabilty control and snow tires....and some RWD cars, like Porsches, have the engine in back over the drive wheels to add weight for traction. But I have found that, in general, for winter traction, there aren't many good substitutes for having the weight of the engine over the drive wheels. It's not the ideal set-up for corner-carving or for aggressive handling on sharp curves....but, especially combined with an LSD, is excellent for starting up and getting the vehicle moving on slippery surfaces without getting stuck. RWD vehicles can sometimes be helped on slippery surfaces by adding weight in the trunk or cargo area....the practice of dumping snow and ice into the empty beds of RWD pickups to add weight is a long-time tradition.
It also needs to be pointed out (which, I think, has already been done), that simply having the drive wheels in any one given location will not necessarily help you stop any quicker on snow and ice...too many other factors are involved in that.
Last edited by mmarshall; 04-14-18 at 06:01 AM.
04-14-18, 05:55 AM
#149
Google some videos / reviews on this topic or just drive a RWD car in the snow.
Once a FWD car loses traction - it is not as predictable to control as RWD.
Very hard to countersteer.
The perception of RWD being poor in snow is due to the fact most RWD cars are Performance oriented and have low profile summer tires which have poor traction. Put on a decent tire with a bigger sidewall and you can drive them anywhere.
S500 used to be RWD only until 15 years ago and somehow nobody ever complained it did badly in snow.
Modern traction systems are much better as well.
04-14-18, 05:55 AM
#150
Pole Position
As we are on the topic of FWD/RWD preferences I would say that trans FWD with RWD like biased AWD likes of Evo X and STi (both cars are FWD biased AWD but trickery in the actual setup gives RWD biased AWD like behavior) is the way to go in large sedans and SUVs. Why? First of all transmission is on the right side of the vehicle which allows greater utility especially in SUV case, that's where mid to small RWD based SUVs fail like Jaguar that has the same amount of interior space as sedan version of the car. Setup like this also allows you to eliminate or minimize the center hump at the back although many FWD manufacturers opt for the hump to increase rigidity. Road handling and feel could mimic RWD cars while front based vehicle distribution could be overridden with proper AWD hard work. The only drawback I see is the fuel economy and R&D to develop your own S-AWC like technology to work that FWD biased AWD like it's RWD.