All-new 2019 Lexus ES to debut at Beijing Motorshow
04-12-18, 09:53 AM
#121
Lexus Test Driver
From many years of experience, I generally agree with your view. One can be a car enthusiast, like me, and have no problem with FWD...in fact, in some ways, I prefer FWD, although, depending on the design of the front suspension and underpinnings, it can sometimes make front end work on suspension and brakes more complex by needing to realign the front wheels when the work is done. One needs to separate a general car enthusiast from a handling enthusiast.....yes, those who prefer more aggressive driving and canyon-carving will usually want RWD, though there are also some excellent FWD products in that category.
The GS does offer a lot more luxury, the interior in the GS is a big step above the ES, and the driving experience is a lot more premium feeling and refined too.
Its important that Lexus have competitors in important segments if they want to continue to be considered a peer of the germans.
Look at it this way, look how small numbers some of these Audi and Jaguar models sell in, but hey, nobodys saying they should cancel their models
Its important that Lexus have competitors in important segments if they want to continue to be considered a peer of the germans.
Look at it this way, look how small numbers some of these Audi and Jaguar models sell in, but hey, nobodys saying they should cancel their models
The Lexus GS is also needed to compete versus the German 5 Series, E-Class and A6. Like SW17LS, I think it'll be foolish for Lexus to use a Avalon/Camry re-skin to compete with a 5 Series and E-Class on the premium luxury sedan market.
Second - the 5 Series and E-Class can easily shoot over into the 60K-70K range. I can never see the Lexus ES ever being priced that high.
Thirdly - there needs to be a vehicle with the ES and LS gap. They can't make it a jump from ES to LS.
I seriously hope the Lexus GS stays no matter how good the Lexus ES is. The Lexus ES simply can't take on the Lexus GS's space. What is a Lexus IS owner suppose to do if they want to upgrade to a bigger Lexus sedan that's still RWD? Pay triple the price for a LS or settle with a Camry/Avalon re-skin? That's why the Lexus GS is important.
Agree with your last line - there are some BMW/MB cars that sell horribly. No one tells them to cancel it either.
04-12-18, 09:58 PM
#122
Just to add my 2cents from all the pages. I drove both the ES and GS for a few days. Maybe its just me but, the ES seems to have less noise and was more quite to me. Now I did drive only the ES UL w/ the double paned Windows. Not sure if all ES's have them?
The GS also had me wishing for more Horsepower for the money. Its fast, but there are a lot faster car in the class. And I drove a 2015 GS and hated the Transmissions too much shifting. A GS460 would be my wish. I had the previous Gen GS460. I loved it.
The Newest GS was Sporty feeling, the ES was Luxury car feeling. On the Highway the ES just felt a better rider, and more elbow roomy. For the Record I do own a 13 ES350 UL, and had the Prev Gen GS460, but I'm talking about the New Gen ES vs The New Gen GS. And I never thought a ES would win me over. Just saying.
The GS also had me wishing for more Horsepower for the money. Its fast, but there are a lot faster car in the class. And I drove a 2015 GS and hated the Transmissions too much shifting. A GS460 would be my wish. I had the previous Gen GS460. I loved it.
The Newest GS was Sporty feeling, the ES was Luxury car feeling. On the Highway the ES just felt a better rider, and more elbow roomy. For the Record I do own a 13 ES350 UL, and had the Prev Gen GS460, but I'm talking about the New Gen ES vs The New Gen GS. And I never thought a ES would win me over. Just saying.
Last edited by jgscott; 04-12-18 at 10:01 PM.
04-13-18, 01:08 AM
#123
Pole Position
I am not expecting anything more of an ES than what it is right now. It will remain the same type of the vehicle, positioned at the same place in the line up with the similar pricing (some packages will push the price further than before)
It's not a GS replacement, it's just an ES like it always has been. Don't hold your breath for any extraordinary driving dynamics or something.
It's not a GS replacement, it's just an ES like it always has been. Don't hold your breath for any extraordinary driving dynamics or something.
04-13-18, 03:55 AM
#124
Just to add my 2cents from all the pages. I drove both the ES and GS for a few days. Maybe its just me but, the ES seems to have less noise and was more quite to me. Now I did drive only the ES UL w/ the double paned Windows. Not sure if all ES's have them?
The GS also had me wishing for more Horsepower for the money. Its fast, but there are a lot faster car in the class. And I drove a 2015 GS and hated the Transmissions too much shifting. A GS460 would be my wish. I had the previous Gen GS460. I loved it.
The Newest GS was Sporty feeling, the ES was Luxury car feeling. On the Highway the ES just felt a better rider, and more elbow roomy. For the Record I do own a 13 ES350 UL, and had the Prev Gen GS460, but I'm talking about the New Gen ES vs The New Gen GS. And I never thought a ES would win me over. Just saying.
The GS also had me wishing for more Horsepower for the money. Its fast, but there are a lot faster car in the class. And I drove a 2015 GS and hated the Transmissions too much shifting. A GS460 would be my wish. I had the previous Gen GS460. I loved it.
The Newest GS was Sporty feeling, the ES was Luxury car feeling. On the Highway the ES just felt a better rider, and more elbow roomy. For the Record I do own a 13 ES350 UL, and had the Prev Gen GS460, but I'm talking about the New Gen ES vs The New Gen GS. And I never thought a ES would win me over. Just saying.
04-13-18, 06:00 AM
#125
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Just to add my 2cents from all the pages. I drove both the ES and GS for a few days. Maybe its just me but, the ES seems to have less noise and was more quite to me. Now I did drive only the ES UL w/ the double paned Windows. Not sure if all ES's have them?
The GS also had me wishing for more Horsepower for the money. Its fast, but there are a lot faster car in the class. And I drove a 2015 GS and hated the Transmissions too much shifting. A GS460 would be my wish. I had the previous Gen GS460. I loved it.
The Newest GS was Sporty feeling, the ES was Luxury car feeling. On the Highway the ES just felt a better rider, and more elbow roomy. For the Record I do own a 13 ES350 UL, and had the Prev Gen GS460, but I'm talking about the New Gen ES vs The New Gen GS. And I never thought a ES would win me over. Just saying.
The GS also had me wishing for more Horsepower for the money. Its fast, but there are a lot faster car in the class. And I drove a 2015 GS and hated the Transmissions too much shifting. A GS460 would be my wish. I had the previous Gen GS460. I loved it.
The Newest GS was Sporty feeling, the ES was Luxury car feeling. On the Highway the ES just felt a better rider, and more elbow roomy. For the Record I do own a 13 ES350 UL, and had the Prev Gen GS460, but I'm talking about the New Gen ES vs The New Gen GS. And I never thought a ES would win me over. Just saying.
the ES is just a center target bullseye hit for someone who wants a roomy, comfortable, refined sedan that's extremely reliable, isn't too huge and not very expensive. i call it the perfect realtor car (they have to drive a lot, ferry people around, without looking too flashy, etc.).
04-13-18, 06:27 AM
#126
Lead Lap
I am not expecting anything more of an ES than what it is right now. It will remain the same type of the vehicle, positioned at the same place in the line up with the similar pricing (some packages will push the price further than before)
It's not a GS replacement, it's just an ES like it always has been. Don't hold your breath for any extraordinary driving dynamics or something.
It's not a GS replacement, it's just an ES like it always has been. Don't hold your breath for any extraordinary driving dynamics or something.
The ES is the only sedan other than the discontinued HS that never got an 'F-Sport' treatment although I can completely see them offering it with the 2019 redesign.
04-13-18, 06:46 AM
#127
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
i think an es f-sport would be an oxymoron. 
04-13-18, 07:21 AM
#129
Pole Position
The GS does offer a lot more luxury, the interior in the GS is a big step above the ES, and the driving experience is a lot more premium feeling and refined too.
I just don't agree. A transverse based ES will never be seen as a peer to the other cars in the segment, at its core it just isn't a peer, it would be an entirely different sort of car.
Remember there was a time when the GS did fine alongside the ES, and to say "nobody buys it" when in its best years it did 20k+ units, which was the goal they had set for the car in the US anyways.
Its important that Lexus have competitors in important segments if they want to continue to be considered a peer of the germans.
Look at it this way, look how small numbers some of these Audi and Jaguar models sell in, but hey, nobodys saying they should cancel their models
I just don't agree. A transverse based ES will never be seen as a peer to the other cars in the segment, at its core it just isn't a peer, it would be an entirely different sort of car.
Remember there was a time when the GS did fine alongside the ES, and to say "nobody buys it" when in its best years it did 20k+ units, which was the goal they had set for the car in the US anyways.
Its important that Lexus have competitors in important segments if they want to continue to be considered a peer of the germans.
Look at it this way, look how small numbers some of these Audi and Jaguar models sell in, but hey, nobodys saying they should cancel their models
I think if buyers cared about the ES not being equal to the Germans, people would have flocked to the GS. But then when you compare the spec sheets of the GS to its German peers, it doesnt measure up in any way shape or form. It is clear that Lexus is content on letting the GS wither away in agony. While the low volume of some of the german competitors does make a case for preserving the GS, at least you can tell those models are being updated. Also, while they may not sell in numbers in the U.S., they sell well in other countries, while the GS does not.
04-13-18, 07:53 AM
#130
Lexus Champion
The 2018 Camry SE and XSE trims, with the decklid spoiler and the fake rear vertical grilles under the taillights, is very popular in my neck of the woods. If this is any indication, an ES F-Sport with a number of dress-up bits would sell.
04-13-18, 08:03 AM
#131
Pole Position
There's an RX F Sport, NX F Sport and the upcoming UX F Sport. All 3 are not sporty by any means and all 3 have mediocre power and overall performance. Something tells me an ES F Sport is not out of the realm of possibility and I wouldnt be surprised if it out sports all 3 of those. So I say F to your hearts content Lexus.
04-13-18, 08:05 AM
#132
Pole Position
I do hope they put more substance into it other than a stiffer suspension, some styling bits and badges. It worked a bit when the F Sports first came out but now its just a styling exercise.
04-13-18, 08:20 AM
#133
Dealers all around the country can’t keep the two tone Camry’s XSE’s in stock. Their is a waiting list.
Im pretty sure the ES F Sport will feature two mode adjustable variable dampers which will allow it to handle slightly better. I’m sure it will be very popular as are the F Sport RX models.
04-13-18, 09:27 AM
#134
Lexus Fanatic
For the current GS you really need to drive the car with the AVS suspension in the luxury trim, which is what I had. Huge step up from the ES. If you just drive an ordinary premium package GS the GS is very ho hum.
This is a problem unfortunately with all modern Lexus vehicles. Its even a problem in the LS. They just aren't built like they used to be.
Thats one of the big reasons why I drive Lexus vehicles in general, and the main reason I didn't just "go for it" this time and get the S Class. Any Lexus is well built, gives you a good driving experience without being too flashy and attention grabbing.
My partner had a MB C Class and traded it on a GS. Despite the GS being more expensive, he got snide remarks from his customers about the C Class, but never the GS.
Originally Posted by situman
However, both car's dash and trims creak going over bumps and when pressed with a bit of pressure.
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
i call it the perfect realtor car (they have to drive a lot, ferry people around, without looking too flashy, etc.).
My partner had a MB C Class and traded it on a GS. Despite the GS being more expensive, he got snide remarks from his customers about the C Class, but never the GS.
04-13-18, 09:47 AM
#135
Lead Lap
