All-new 2019 Lexus ES to debut at Beijing Motorshow
04-11-18, 02:43 PM
#46
Lexus Fanatic
Agreed. Yes, an executive level car should be RWD designed. But that is not to say that there are not advantages to a FWD design. In the case of the GS vs RWD, it is almost impossible to convince the average entry level buyer to move up to the GS price point, RWD is not enough, but that is if you are just looking for a mid to large sized car. Especially for the North American market. Saying the GS is a better car than the ES is absurd. There are many things that might be better when purchasing an ES compared to a GS. And vice versa. It all depends on what one wants.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 04-11-18 at 02:49 PM.
04-11-18, 02:43 PM
#47
Lexus Test Driver
$5,450 is all that separates a base Avalon from a base ES350. And with that increase in price you get the honor of saying you own a Lexus and not a Toyota. You also get a basic comprehensive warranty that last one additional year. A slightly longer powertrain warranty. You also get a clean & refueled LEXUS loaner, dealers serve Starbucks instead of Keurig coffee. You walk on finely polished Italian marble tile floors vs ceramic tile. And most importantly you have glistening chandeliers bedazzling the cathedrals high ceilings vs the plebeian 2x4 fiber-glass drop tiles that adorn the ceiling of your average Toyota dealer. Somestimes Lexus dealers throw in a small putting green for the added novelty.
It will be interesting to see how the ES is further differentiated from ‘19 Avalon now that Avalon offers a standard Bi-LED headlights, 9” infotainment display, 1200watt JBL sound system, real Yamaha wood veneer, standard cow hide and availabile adaptive variable suspension with option to add 19” rims.
I'm predicting the ES will further differentiate with optional-have-to-buy Lexus triple LED headlamps (I know its an option because the leaked picture showed the Lexus ES without it), probably a 10+ inch display, a better Mark Levinson sound system and a bunch of little things. Overall - I think the Lexus ES will be better than the Avalon - 2019 Avalon interior dash still looks pretty cheap despite the price tag. I'm more wondering how it'll stack up in general - IE: does it raise the bar high enough to fill the Lexus GS shoes - if the Lexus GS is being canceled?
04-11-18, 02:46 PM
#48
Lexus Fanatic
It’s not absurd at all. Having had both, the GS is uquestionably a better car. Just because most buyers don’t understand the ways in which it’s better doesn’t mean it isn’t better. As I said before, the only thing the ES has going for it over the GS is price and a bigger backseat.
People like mediocrity.
People like mediocrity.
04-11-18, 02:52 PM
#49
It depends on what you want. If you just want interior space, sure the ES is better packaged. If you care about literally anything else the GS is better. It rides better, its quieter, its more refined, its more solid and built better, the interior materials used are worlds better, and its a proper RWD layout.
The only benefit the ES has over the GS outside of price is a larger backseat.
The only benefit the ES has over the GS outside of price is a larger backseat.
So it almosts as if the product planning executives and engineers working on the 7th gen ES are not aware the GS and LS exists within the lineup. From what I’ve gathered it seems the 7ES will easily trump the LS500’s overall interior passenger volume on paper when in debuts in 2 weeks. The current 6th ES is already measuring at a little over 100 cu ft. vs the 2018 LS500’s 0.99 cu ft. according to the EPA.
‘There has to be more to this story, a longer wheel base LS500L must be on the horizon.
04-11-18, 02:53 PM
#50
Lexus Fanatic
It’s not absurd at all. Having had both, the GS is uquestionably a better car. Just because most buyers don’t understand the ways in which it’s better doesn’t mean it isn’t better. As I said before, the only thing the ES has going for it over the GS is price and a bigger backseat.
People like mediocrity.
People like mediocrity.
04-11-18, 02:54 PM
#51
Lexus Test Driver
So to summarize my position, the ES being FWD is fine as long as the IS and GS exist. If they do away with the GS and expect a FWD ES to fill that midsize segment need and compete with the E Class, 5 Series and A6 they're in trouble. If they do so, they are basically ceding they can't compete for those buyers.
Serious luxury & performance buyers are not going to buy a FWD car.
Whats the difference between them being diminished and "hurting them big"?
Serious luxury & performance buyers are not going to buy a FWD car.
Whats the difference between them being diminished and "hurting them big"?
Well - maybe I took the word "diminish" way too harshly. I saw "diminish" was Lexus would not be competitive ever again. I like to think Lexus will stay competitive even with a RWD mid-size sedan but "hurt them big" as they'll lose sales and respect.
It depends on what you want. If you just want interior space, sure the ES is better packaged. If you care about literally anything else the GS is better. It rides better, its quieter, its more refined, its more solid and built better, the interior materials used are worlds better, and its a proper RWD layout.
The only benefit the ES has over the GS outside of price is a larger backseat.
The only benefit the ES has over the GS outside of price is a larger backseat.
Agreed. Yes, an executive level car should be RWD designed. But that is not to say that there are not advantages to a FWD design. In the case of the GS vs RWD, it is almost impossible to convince the average entry level buyer to move up to the GS price point, RWD is not enough. Especially for the North American market. Saying the GS is a better car than the ES is absurd. There are many things better when purchasing a ES compared to the a GS. And vice versa. It all depends on what one wants.
I feel like the ES/GS can go exist if they make it a clear differentiation. The Lexus IS being the entry-level luxury - but for people who want more room and luxury buy the Lexus ES.
Then make the Lexus GS the baby Lexus LS - similar performance, quality and material - but a level down from the LS.
04-11-18, 02:54 PM
#52
Lexus Fanatic
So it almost as if the product planning executives and engineers working on the 7th gen ES are not aware the GS and LS exists within the lineup. From what I’ve gathered it seems the 7ES will easily trump the LS500’s overall interior passenger volume on paper when in debuts in 2 weeks. The current 6th ES is already measuring at a little over 100 cu ft. vs the 2018 LS500’s 0.99 cu ft. according to the EPA.
Toyota engineers know that the GS and LS exist. Issue with the GS is that it is pretty much redundant in the size and class of car for the US market.
04-11-18, 02:58 PM
#53
Lexus Fanatic
I personally think the Lexus IS is the entry-level luxury price point. The GS is more of the premium luxury price point.
I feel like the ES/GS can go exist if they make it a clear differentiation. The Lexus IS being the entry-level luxury - but for people who want more room and luxury buy the Lexus ES.
Then make the Lexus GS the baby Lexus LS - similar performance, quality and material - but a level down from the LS.
I feel like the ES/GS can go exist if they make it a clear differentiation. The Lexus IS being the entry-level luxury - but for people who want more room and luxury buy the Lexus ES.
Then make the Lexus GS the baby Lexus LS - similar performance, quality and material - but a level down from the LS.
Nobody said it was.
04-11-18, 03:01 PM
#54
Lexus Champion
So it almosts as if the product planning executives and engineers working on the 7th gen ES are not aware the GS and LS exists within the lineup. From what I’ve gathered it seems the 7ES will easily trump the LS500’s overall interior passenger volume on paper when in debuts in 2 weeks. The current 6th ES is already measuring at a little over 100 cu ft. vs the 2018 LS500’s 0.99 cu ft. according to the EPA.
‘There has to be more to this story, a longer wheel base LS500L must be on the horizon.
04-11-18, 03:18 PM
#56
I find it interesting you say that the GS is pretty much redundant in it’s size and class of car for the US market when all it’s main competition all fall within 1 cu ft of each other in regards to interior passenger volume. In fact the ES is much bigger than the 5er, A6, and E-class. It’s very competitive with the Caddy XTS in regards to interior dimensions. I find my 4GS has more leg room than the newly redesigned 5 series and it matches the 2018 E-class evenly for rear seat comfort.
04-11-18, 03:25 PM
#57
Lexus Champion
Personally, don't see too much difference between the Avalon (flagship sedan of the Toyota brand) and the ES (entry level sedan of the Lexus brand). In fact, the Avalon may represent a better value but they are close enough that it would strictly be a matter of personal preference.
04-11-18, 03:25 PM
#58
Lexus Fanatic
I find it interesting you say that the GS is pretty much redundant in it’s size and class of car for the US market when all it’s main competition all fall within 1 cu ft of each other in regards to interior passenger volume. In fact the ES is much bigger than the 5er, A6, and E-class. It’s very competitive with the Caddy XTS in regards to interior dimensions. I find my 4GS has more leg room than the newly redesigned 5 series and it matches the 2018 E-class evenly for rear seat comfort.
If the next gen GS has the 3.5TT and 10 speed while the ES is 3.5 and 8 speed, you start to see some differentiation among the two models. Then both can coexist very easily. Kind of like when the ES was just a 6 cylinder while the GS offered an inline 6, two different 4.3/4.6 V8s at the time etc etc. The 4 cylinder I4 in the current GS does not help. It probably hurts it more than it helps it.
These are my perceptions of the ES and GS.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 04-11-18 at 03:33 PM.
04-11-18, 03:27 PM
#59
Lexus Fanatic
Personally, don't see too much difference between the Avalon (flagship sedan of the Toyota brand) and the ES (entry level sedan of the Lexus brand). In fact, the Avalon may represent a better value but they are close enough that it would strictly be a matter of personal preference.
