All-new 2019 Lexus ES to debut at Beijing Motorshow
04-14-18, 06:42 AM
#151
Lexus Fanatic
You said "extremely dangerous" what you describe is nothing of the sort. A RWD car can spin when it has traction issues. Having driven many winters in both FWD and RWD cars and trucks FWD wins easily. BTW if you are going to tout traction and stability control in a RWD platform same applies to FWD.
The only drive wheels should not be the only steering wheels. Physics are physics, traction control or not. Skid control systems keep the driver from needing to know how to control a RWD oversteer in the snow, but they don’t really help with what makes a FWD vehicle inherently dangerous in the snow and ice.
Like I said, I am not surprised you guys think the way you do, you haven’t had the experience I had of being in a skid car with an instructor who told me what I just told you, and then showed me the problem. I thought the way you did before. People equate “good in snow” with “gets me moving easier” and there’s just way more to it than that. People who say “FWD cars rarely loose traction” are just wrong. When you’re moving all cars can loose traction in a skid regardless of drivetrain, and a FWD car has dramatically less control once you’re in that skid because you can’t apply power and steering separately.
If I had a choice between my FWD Pacifica or my RWD LS460 in the snow, knowing what I know I would choose the LS460 every time.
Last edited by SW17LS; 04-14-18 at 06:49 AM.
04-14-18, 08:58 AM
#152
I have owned FWD, RWD, and AWD vehicles in my lifetime. My experience over many winters pretty much mirrors yours....on snow and ice, all else equal, AWD is tops, then FWD, then RWD in that order. That doesn't necessarily mean that all RWD vehicles s**k, especially with traction/stabilty control and snow tires....and some RWD cars, like Porsches, have the engine in back over the drive wheels to add weight for traction. But I have found that, in general, for winter traction, there aren't many good substitutes for having the weight of the engine over the drive wheels. It's not the ideal set-up for corner-carving or for aggressive handling on sharp curves....but, especially combined with an LSD, is excellent for starting up and getting the vehicle moving on slippery surfaces without getting stuck. RWD vehicles can sometimes be helped on slippery surfaces by adding weight in the trunk or cargo area....the practice of dumping snow and ice into the empty beds of RWD pickups to add weight is a long-time tradition.
It also needs to be pointed out (which, I think, has already been done), that simply having the drive wheels in any one given location will not necessarily help you stop any quicker on snow and ice...too many other factors are involved in that.
It also needs to be pointed out (which, I think, has already been done), that simply having the drive wheels in any one given location will not necessarily help you stop any quicker on snow and ice...too many other factors are involved in that.
04-14-18, 09:41 AM
#153
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Fwd and rwd both suck in any significant snow. If i lived some place with a lot of snow, i'd have awd no question. Since i don't i'll likely NEVER drive fwd.
04-14-18, 09:46 AM
#154
04-14-18, 12:02 PM
#155
Lexus Fanatic
Google some videos / reviews on this topic or just drive a RWD car in the snow.
Once a FWD car loses traction - it is not as predictable to control as RWD.
Very hard to countersteer.
The perception of RWD being poor in snow is due to the fact most RWD cars are Performance oriented and have low profile summer tires which have poor traction. Put on a decent tire with a bigger sidewall and you can drive them anywhere.
S500 used to be RWD only until 15 years ago and somehow nobody ever complained it did badly in snow.
Modern traction systems are much better as well.
I like RWD cars better then FWD cars but there is no way I would say they are as good or better in the snow or slippery conditions then a FWD car, I have driven both types in the snow and while I did not have any real issues with my RWD car in the snow with decent all seasons it was a little more difficult to get started and it was easier to get the car to spin/light up traction control if I gave it too much throttle in a turn. I remember a friend was following me in a IS300 and we took a turn on a on ramp in the snow, the IS300 was terrible in the snow and taking the on ramp he spun out and wrecked his IS while my FWD handled the turn just fine, he said the car just felt squirrelly and when he gave it some more power the rear swung out and it spun out.
When my GS was totaled form a rear end collision it was knocked off the road into a grassy muddy dip on the side of the road which I aimed for so I did not get knocked into oncoming traffic or possibly into the guy in front of me. I could not get my GS up the bank which was not that steep because the rear tires just did not get enough traction, I likely would have with a FWD car, the toe truck driver said the same thing, doubted I would be able to get up it with RWD. FWD does have some advantages especially in slippery conditions, RWD may be easier to control in certain cases if it loses traction but it will lose traction before a FWD car if the tires are equal.
The absolute worse vehicles for driving in the snow/bad weather are RWD pick up trucks because they have so little traction on the rear wheels, I have seen a couple spin out including one guy I was following to work, did 2 360's through a red light when he tried to put on the brakes and turn on a yellow light, I have no issues driving my FWD car the entire time even the few times I tried to get it to slide and have a little fun.
Last edited by UDel; 04-14-18 at 12:10 PM.
04-14-18, 03:16 PM
#156
Lexus Test Driver
There was a time when GS, SC, LS were RWD only......and magically people still bought them lol
People have been brainwashed by marketing that AWD is a necessity.
In Germany its a law to have winter tires as tires are way more important than anything else when it comes to traction.
04-14-18, 10:32 PM
#159
04-14-18, 11:06 PM
#160
Lexus Test Driver
We should just go back on topic about the ES.
This FWD/RWD debate is going no where. I seriously don't understand how some people honestly believe RWD is the go-to choice for snow/rain/ice.
Agreed with MM, AWD > FWD > RWD in snow/ice/rain - this is non-debatable.
This FWD/RWD debate is going no where. I seriously don't understand how some people honestly believe RWD is the go-to choice for snow/rain/ice.
Agreed with MM, AWD > FWD > RWD in snow/ice/rain - this is non-debatable.
04-15-18, 12:04 AM
#161
Lexus Test Driver
Originally Posted by BippuLexus
We should just go back on topic about the ES.
This FWD/RWD debate is going no where. I seriously don't understand how some people honestly believe RWD is the go-to choice for snow/rain/ice.
Agreed with MM, AWD > FWD > RWD in snow/ice/rain - this is non-debatable.
This FWD/RWD debate is going no where. I seriously don't understand how some people honestly believe RWD is the go-to choice for snow/rain/ice.
Agreed with MM, AWD > FWD > RWD in snow/ice/rain - this is non-debatable.
04-15-18, 12:50 AM
#162
Lead Lap
AWD for the win
FWD vs RWD is a tie.
If the ES is trying to capture more market AWD would be a winner
04-15-18, 01:01 AM
#163
Just imagine if we only had 2 wheel brakes? Would be terrible, hence AWD better than 2WD.
FWD is easier for the novice to steer.
RWD is trickier for the novice to steer.
FWD is easier for the novice to steer.
RWD is trickier for the novice to steer.
04-15-18, 05:43 AM
#164
Lexus Fanatic
I agree if the tires are all the same but put winter tires on a RWD car and it will outperform the FWD car with all-seasons. FWD is preferred because people don't want to put winters on during the snow months. It's convenience they are looking for. As enthusiasts though, we would rather deal with winter tires rather than suffer driving an inferior platform for handling in the dry months. Every time I get an ES loaner, it feels more like my minivan than my IS. I'll gladly have a set of winter tires to avoid having noticeably inferior FWD dynamics.
