zes

Somebody was mentioning the everything about BMWs is very 'refined'. He meant the way the steering, controls, switches work etc and the way it drives. The person has a 3 series. I am wondering how does a 3 series compare with a ES. Prices are similar. I went with the ES because I did not want a part time job fixing the thing after the warranty expires. I know the ES is more reliable. But is it as refined as a BMW? Does anybody own both and tell us? From my perspective my ESh feels refined most days but faintly reminds me of my old Camry every now and then (not in a bad way!).

3000psi

I had a 3-series in the past, and now have a 2014 ES.

To me, comparing an ES to a 3 series is an apples-to-oranges comparison. I would not use "refined" to describe the BMW, more like "highly tuned". It's a drivers car. It's not ever going to be the most comfortable ride, but when you toss it into a curve you are going to get feedback from the car that helps you drive it well if you know what you are doing, and you are going to be able to trust that it will take your inputs and execute them in a consistent way that builds trust. The ES drives more like my dad's Buick. It's a nice ride and I enjoy it, but when I do throw it into a curve I don't push it too hard because I don't fully trust it. If you are talking about comparable engine sizes - 3.5L in both - the BMW is going to dust the ES by over a second in 0-60 time. The BMW is also rear wheel drive - that's important to most performance drivers.

But, at this stage in my life, I'd like a shot at having 150K relatively trouble-free miles. Odds are WAY higher that I'll get that from an ES. Also, I live in a snowy climate - FWD is preferable to me even with the loss in performance driving ability. Oh, and unless it's changed, the BMW requires 93 octane gas.

In most respects, a Lexus IS is a much better comparison to a BMW 3. I haven't driven an IS - that could be the way to the best of both worlds in reliability and drive-ability.

roninlexus

Agree with 3000psi except for " The ES drives more like my dad's Buick" but maybe Buick has changed a lot. The German cars are what I would term "luxury Sports cars" and our ES 350s for the most part leave out the "sports" part. I would call the Lexus brand "refined" and that goes with the ownership experience/loyalty and reliability. While I think the "tuning" or performance of the BMW lends itself to the driving experience but also to the higher maintenance costs. It's a trade for sure and a 300+ Hp IS AWD to me would be a good compromise but still not a "performance" car. What's funny to me is I like Vettes and my last Z06 was pretty dang quick. However many still refer to it as an "old mans car". However the last thing the C5 Vette was would be "refined". Perspective I guess...

zes

I guess by refined I mean the way the doors close, the feel of the switches, smoothness of drivetrain etc., NVH (noise, vibration, harshness). I recognize that the BMW steering is not vague, but does that also provide a lot of bumpy feedback from road irregularities?

3000psi

I personally see no difference in Lexus and BMW when it comes to fit and finish. I do give an edge to BMW paint - I've always assumed it's thicker but don't have evidence. My Lexus paint seems a lot less resistant to rock chips. I give an edge to Lexus on the cabin being quiet. I find the BWM interior to feel more utilitarian - still luxurious but I'd personally rather ride in a Lexus.

BMW steering and suspension isn't bumpy or nervous - quite the contrary. But I would contrast the ES as being mushy.

They are both high quality cars, and I would argue equally "refined." But they are designed with different priorities.

UKEE

Coming from a 2015 BMW 328i XDrive to the 2016 ES 350, my observations:

The ES350 seats are miles ahead of the BMW standard seats in comfort. The BMW standard seats, IMO, are very HARD. I know that this is an individual preference and not meant as an all or nothing statement. I can't comment on BMW sports seats as I've never tried them.

The ES350 has plenty of power but the BMW eats it's lunch in raw power, acceleration (not sure about top speed). The four cylinder turbo just pours out torque on the BMW. One huge minus of the BWM was a 'sometimes' lag when pressing the accelerator. This has been documents across the web by many. Many feel that BMW is trying to up fuel economy. I found it random and VERY DANGEROUS when it occurred. I would press the gas pedal and the car would just sit for a second before going. If I kept pressing the pedal, it would cause the car to lurch forward. HATED that. Many have solved it with a black box between the pedal sensor and the throttle controller but to me, an aftermarket solution was a big red flag and a NO!

The ES350's steering is so soft but the BMW's steering is adjustable based on mode (ECO, normal, sports and sports+). I wish that the steering on both cars could be set independent of the mode. I thing the ES350's steering could be a bit stiffer but just my opinion.

The ES350 has a smoother ride and the cabin is so very quiet. BMW wasn't bad but not the same.

The ES350 gets quite a bit lower gas mileage than the BMW but the lower octane used by the ES350 makes up for any difference (I average near 31 with ES350 on highway and nearly 35 with the BMW).

The ES350 interior materials feel and look better than the BMW. Both use hard plastics in places but the BMW seemed to have more of it than the ES350. I had more wood grain sections in the BMW that I actually liked better than the sparkling black sections of the Lexus (I know that I could have went up in options and would have more wood grain features but that ship sailed). The BMW interior materials just felt cheaper overall, especially the door panels.

Not a fan of either the ES350 or the BMW front cup holders, lol. The ES350 placement just doesn't make sense with me.

The ES350 has more leg room and a better driver layout for your feet (there is a large hump in the BMW floorboard near the driver's feet that I didn't like)

The ES350 electronics and stereo are comparable to the BMW in my opinion. I don't like the USB cable of the Lexus when connecting an iPhone only to charge. There is no way to keep sound coming out of the phone's speakers (like GPS for example) while still playing the radio on the car (that I could find). Seems the iPhone is taken over when using USB. Can't just charge your phone with it (or so it seems - I would love to be wrong on this one). I did like the BMW programmable radio selection buttons (real buttons, no touch or select stuff) but that's because I'm an old school guy that likes to be able to select stations but feeling the buttons across and not having to look at the screen to see what I'm selecting.

The ES350 heating and ventilation are about the same as BMW but the BMW has an AC button that I wish that the ES350 had. The ES350, by contrast, has the optional cooled seats which I really like (although make sure to turn off the passenger seat if not occupied as you can hear the air 'wooshing' from the seat, lol)

The ES350 has a true spare tire and regular tires vs the BMW's run flat tires and no spare (not even a space for one). Big plus for me on the ES350 there.

The ES350 has more cargo room.

The ES350 has more rear leg room.

The ES350 has a better, IMO, driver display (speedometer, tachometer, information display) than the BMW. The 'orange' color of the BMW's display became a turn off quickly. Again, this is my opinion and other's may not feel that way.

To be honest, I had buyer's remorse at a few days after purchasing the BMW. I didn't keep it long but decided to eat the difference mainly because of seat comfort (terrible on my back) and other things that I simply didn't research enough. One other thing that I hated was the BMW keyfob. I constantly was setting it off in my pocket causing the trunk to be open or worse, the windows down and the sunroof open. That can be programmed out though so it could have been worked through. Had it happen to me multiple times, even at work.

roninlexus

"The ES350 has plenty of power but the BMW eats it's lunch in raw power, acceleration (not sure about top speed)".

Interesting comment as the Lexus shows a 0-60 time only .3 seconds slower and a very similar 1/4 mile time (low 14s). Not that I would want to race a BMW around a track (I would lose) but most of us feel the "butt dyno" in a straight line and/or passing etc. and I'm not sure the 4 cylinder really out does the 350s 6 cyl. by any noticeable / appreciable margin.

UKEE

While I understand the data, the BMW feel of power just simply beats the ES350 hands down. That may be my perception but I could feel it on the ES350 test drive and still remember it. Driving the BMW to the Lexus dealer and then switching to the ES350 could easily be felt in terms of power. Putting the BMW into Sports or Sports+ mode made it even more pronounced since it held the BMW's transmission in a lower gear longer and never let it go to the highest gear. Maybe it's a 'trick' because of the transmission timing and gearing but I can certainly tell the difference between hitting the accelerator in the BMW vs the ES350. Again, the ES350 has wonderful power, fuel economy and smoothness. The BMW simply beats it on power (at least feel) and on fuel economy. On smoothness, the ES350 wins pretty easy IMO. Now I didn't punch the Lexus down to see what it could do but neither did I on the BMW when taking it over to the Lexus dealer. I did, however, punch the BMW a few times, especially when I was programming the settings, modes, etc. To be honest, I was afraid to punch the BMW too many times as I had, by then, read the horror stories of failures on the BMW such as engine, transmission, etc. and was afraid to do it too many times, lol!

BMW engine:
241 hp @ 5000-6500 RPM
258 lb-ft @ 1250-4800 RPM

Lexus Engine:
272 hp @ 6200 RPM
254 lb-ft @ 4700 RPM

The torque at low end (1250 RPM) from the BMW just gives it a real kick. That's why I didn't mention top speed as the ES350 winds out, it's very similar to the BMW in the upper RPM ranges.

Maikerusan

Ukee-thanks for your thought on the comparison factors. I would rather read those that a lot of car magazine nonsense that focuses on minor factors, not day to day experience.

roninlexus

The torque at low end (1250 RPM) from the BMW just gives it a real kick. That's why I didn't mention top speed as the ES350 winds out, it's very similar to the BMW in the upper RPM ranges.

Agreed- torque is what ya feel per say vs hp. Good point and stat, I did not realize the difference in power curve. The specs are similar but I'm sure the feel is different. I did not test drive a BMW while I was shopping. Seems like a lot of 4 cyl turbos out there today (probably for hp/mpg combo) but was more inclined personally towards a 6cyl or 8.

I would rather read those that a lot of car magazine nonsense that focuses on minor factors, not day to day experience.

Certainly agree- especially anything by Car and Driver - at least on the 350...

zes

Thank you guys. Great discussion. The 300h is anemic with respect to horsepower but I think that the takeoff torque provided by the motors makes it drivable with the smaller 2.5 liter Atkinson cycle engine. In the 300h the motor torque is not managed well in Sport mode, as it comes on too abruptly with throttle input, making it less smooth.

zes

Agreed. If you consider the 'pony cars' such as Mutangs, Firebirds and Cameros they can be very fast but they are not refined. A Corvette can be fast but it is not known as a refined car. Ferrari s and Porsch s are way above my pay grade so I don't know how refined they are. But an E Series and an LS would be refined. I would like to think of the ES as a poor man's LS and has some of its refinement.

I think that that the old Camry s (late 90s vintage) were more refined than the new ones because the newer ones have been victims of cost cutting and feel more tinny. I have driven both and the older ones ran smoother, even though they did not have the bells and whistles.

pab12

>more inclined personally towards a 6cyl or 8.
There's that adage again: There's no substitute for cubic inches.
A turbo 4 will always be peaky and unrefined, it's punching above its weight after all. The bigger engine will always be more relaxed and smooth.
But each is well suited for the purpose of the car.
=================================
My karma just ran over your dogma
Current Hers: '13 Lexus ES350
Current Mine: '08 Jaguar S-Type 4.2

roninlexus

Guilty as charged. Maybe it's an old school adage but I believe it is true. When I was shopping, seemed quite a few - BMW, Audi, etc has these turbo 4s. I (personally) did not want that. Went to an Infinity and Lexus dealer. Lexus won but here in Colorado, AWD still would be a nice option. The 350 engine is great, the transmission seems to have a mind of its own. Usually acceleration is smooth and powerful, other times there may be a lag. Also at stop or even rolling I can spin the tires which is not really what I want. More experience/predictability will help. The turbo here at 5,000 ft has quite a following though- it certainly helps at this altitude. Hmmm- a turbo 6 cyl ES 350.... Bet someone somewhere did that...

norakat

Before I bought by 2016 ES 350 Luxury Ed., I shopped around and test drove the BMW 535 and 528i. After feeling the response, acceleration, sound and feeling of that car, it is always a disappointment to drive this car. The transmission and drive train on the ES is a big disappointment. It feels sluggish every time I accelerate from a stop. It is also not easy to do a controlled acceleration at low rates and speeds. Its like a struggle with this car. And yes it does feel like a regular Toyota at times (most of the time). It tries to be refined but is really not. The drive train is antiquated. Don't like the steering either. Maybe aspects of the suspension might be better for smaller bumps.

On the other hand, the BMW interior is not very impressive while the ES looks very nice. Ditto with the outside of the car.