ES - 6th Gen (2013-2018) Discussion topics related to 2013+ ES models

ES vs BMW refinement

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Old 05-19-17, 01:52 PM
  #16  
UKEE
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Originally Posted by norakat
Before I bought by 2016 ES 350 Luxury Ed., I shopped around and test drove the BMW 535 and 528i. After feeling the response, acceleration, sound and feeling of that car, it is always a disappointment to drive this car. The transmission and drive train on the ES is a big disappointment. It feels sluggish every time I accelerate from a stop. It is also not easy to do a controlled acceleration at low rates and speeds. Its like a struggle with this car. And yes it does feel like a regular Toyota at times (most of the time). It tries to be refined but is really not. The drive train is antiquated. Don't like the steering either. Maybe aspects of the suspension might be better for smaller bumps.

On the other hand, the BMW interior is not very impressive while the ES looks very nice. Ditto with the outside of the car.
I'm not sure that a comparison between an ES 350 and a BMW 535/528i would be an apples to apples comparison, IMO. 328i would be more in with with the ES 350.
Old 05-19-17, 01:57 PM
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norakat
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The ES350 has a smoother ride and the cabin is so very quiet.
I do not agree that it is so quiet, especially at 65-70 MPH.. there is a lot of wind and road noise. I was very surprised for something that is supposed to be so refined. Also with my 18" wheels, the ride is harsh and not comfortable. Throw in the really awkward and uncomfortable seats and now I'm really annoyed.
Old 05-19-17, 02:00 PM
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norakat
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Originally Posted by UKEE
I'm not sure that a comparison between an ES 350 and a BMW 535/528i would be an apples to apples comparison, IMO. 328i would be more in with with the ES 350.
The 328i is a much smaller car than the ES350, especially when you consider the room in the back seats. The BMW 5 series would be a more comparable car/closer match size wise.
Old 05-19-17, 02:19 PM
  #19  
UKEE
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Originally Posted by norakat
The 328i is a much smaller car than the ES350, especially when you consider the room in the back seats. The BMW 5 series would be a more comparable car/closer match size wise.
That is true but you're spending quite a bit more money for the BMW 5 series, no?

If not, my apologies and ignore my post above.

Edit: I just checked CARS.com and right now, BMW 528's are as low as $43,xxx after big discounts (year end)? That would be better than I thought but an ES can be had for quite a bit lower at year end discounts too (mine stickered for $42,500 and was bought for $33,500 last year right before the 2017's were released.

Last edited by UKEE; 05-19-17 at 02:23 PM.
Old 05-19-17, 08:09 PM
  #20  
TechNut
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Norakat: I'm curious. Your posts indicate a strong dislike for your ES. I can't help but wonder why you bought it and then why you keep it. It clearly isn't the right fit for your needs or expectations. Care to share?
Old 05-20-17, 01:51 AM
  #21  
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The 5 is a RWD, sport-focused sedan whereas the ES is a FWD lux people hauler. Leaving aside reliability and maintenance costs, they're completely different machines for different niches. If you don't like the ES, why not get another car? Life's too short to complain about a car that doesn't meet your needs.

That said, I was also cross-shopping the BMW 5 and Audi A6 when I was looking for a large premium sedan. I didn't care about handling or drivetrain layouts, I just wanted a car with a big back seat. The ES300h won out because it was cheaper than the others while being just as comfy.
Old 05-20-17, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by roninlexus
Guilty as charged. Maybe it's an old school adage but I believe it is true. When I was shopping, seemed quite a few - BMW, Audi, etc has these turbo 4s. I (personally) did not want that. Went to an Infinity and Lexus dealer. Lexus won but here in Colorado, AWD still would be a nice option. The 350 engine is great, the transmission seems to have a mind of its own. Usually acceleration is smooth and powerful, other times there may be a lag. Also at stop or even rolling I can spin the tires which is not really what I want. More experience/predictability will help. The turbo here at 5,000 ft has quite a following though- it certainly helps at this altitude. Hmmm- a turbo 6 cyl ES 350.... Bet someone somewhere did that...
Speaking of AWD, Audi Quattro,, Acura SH-AWD or Subaru AWD systems are tops. I am getting old, only reason I switched to RX from MDX/Audi SQ5/BMW X5. RX is just cushy cushy, no
fun car to drive. I hear complaints of hard seats on BMW, this is funny if a car like BMW has cushy cushy seats? Then how one can drive it like BMW? Still 2 BMWs in the family for younger family
members. Folks here is Lexus biased but BMW/Audi types are different class cars. Direct comparison is not possible. If I drove this RX like BMW going around a steep curve at full speed, RX wlll
go out of control, LOL Comparing engines, look at the power curve and drive accordingly. New generation ZF trannies one problem is they use dog clutches. 2 stage turbos are much better with negligible turbo lag. Audi uses super charger.
Old 05-20-17, 05:45 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by Ward6096
Norakat: I'm curious. Your posts indicate a strong dislike for your ES. I can't help but wonder why you bought it and then why you keep it. It clearly isn't the right fit for your needs or expectations. Care to share?
I had exactly the same thought.

Like beauty, refinement can be in the eye of the beholder. If, today, I were to buy a BMW 5-series, I'd have many complaints about the car, but the shortcomings of that car (to me) would not be the fault of BMW. Instead, the reality would be that I had made a mistake in buying a car that was not built to meet my needs and whose "refinement" was of a different nature than that of the ES or other Lexus vehicles that were better designed to meet my wants and needs.
Old 05-20-17, 06:00 AM
  #24  
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It all depends on what you are looking for in a car. I bought the ES because I care about reliability, comfort , luxury, quiet interior, roominess and fuel economy. I am not interested in sport car. I don't throw my cars in corners. BMW focuses on building sport cars, good for them, I don't drive my car on race track. I drive on city streets full of pot holes. Lexus also have sport cars, ES is not one of them, so comparison here is not valid.
Old 05-20-17, 07:15 AM
  #25  
Htony
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Originally Posted by GES
It all depends on what you are looking for in a car. I bought the ES because I care about reliability, comfort , luxury, quiet interior, roominess and fuel economy. I am not interested in sport car. I don't throw my cars in corners. BMW focuses on building sport cars, good for them, I don't drive my car on race track. I drive on city streets full of pot holes. Lexus also have sport cars, ES is not one of them, so comparison here is not valid.
Exactly, just don't compare cars with two different pedigree. If one is not happy with his or her car, (s)he picked wrong car to drive. Ideally having two cars will be better one like Lexus and one like BMW.
Most people are motor vehicle operators, others are drivers. When I drive I have to feel the road, I have to feel the engine, I drive watching tachometer rather than odometer. I am part of the machinery. Sadly those days are passing due to my age nearing 80 of age. I have to realize and keep reminding myself I am not young any more with good eye sights, hearing, and reflection, etc. Getting old is not fun.
Old 05-20-17, 10:36 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Ward6096
Norakat: I'm curious. Your posts indicate a strong dislike for your ES. I can't help but wonder why you bought it and then why you keep it. It clearly isn't the right fit for your needs or expectations. Care to share?
I drive professionally (use the car to serve business-class car service) and chose the ES because of Lexus/Toyota's reputation for reliability which is of foremost importance. I was willing to sacrifice the drive quality (comparing to a 5 series). Drive quality is not really that apparent until you've driven it for a while. Recently I ran into a few problems like discovering my transmission was underfilled from the factory causing some problems and now my power-steering is making some noise. I keep it because it is a big loss to trade it in, and still hoping that it is reliable over the long run.
Old 05-20-17, 11:10 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by norakat
The 328i is a much smaller car than the ES350, especially when you consider the room in the back seats. The BMW 5 series would be a more comparable car/closer match size wise.
My brother has a 328i and I agree it is much smaller. When I ride in it I feel cramped compared to my ES and forget about back seat room and comfort, no comparison IMHO. I would take my ES any day over a BMW. But again that is just my opinion.
Old 05-20-17, 01:08 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by norakat
I drive professionally (use the car to serve business-class car service) and chose the ES because of Lexus/Toyota's reputation for reliability which is of foremost importance. I was willing to sacrifice the drive quality (comparing to a 5 series). Drive quality is not really that apparent until you've driven it for a while. Recently I ran into a few problems like discovering my transmission was underfilled from the factory causing some problems and now my power-steering is making some noise. I keep it because it is a big loss to trade it in, and still hoping that it is reliable over the long run.
Understood. So really not a personal purchase so much as a business decision. As a business expense I suppose you have to depreciate it so you might get a tax hit as well if you trade in too early. Sorry to hear you have already had those issues. I suspect the majority of ES buyers only drive casually; commuter duty or the occasional road trip to grandma's house, so we probably don't spend the kind of time in the car that you do and may not fully appreciate the differences behind the wheel (or in the seat...). Anyway, thank you for the explanation. Your perspective makes a great deal more sense to me now.
Old 05-22-17, 06:29 AM
  #29  
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I bought mine to drive it, not race it, and it drives very nice.

Originally Posted by norakat
Before I bought by 2016 ES 350 Luxury Ed., I shopped around and test drove the BMW 535 and 528i. After feeling the response, acceleration, sound and feeling of that car, it is always a disappointment to drive this car. The transmission and drive train on the ES is a big disappointment. It feels sluggish every time I accelerate from a stop. It is also not easy to do a controlled acceleration at low rates and speeds. Its like a struggle with this car. And yes it does feel like a regular Toyota at times (most of the time). It tries to be refined but is really not. The drive train is antiquated. Don't like the steering either. Maybe aspects of the suspension might be better for smaller bumps.

On the other hand, the BMW interior is not very impressive while the ES looks very nice. Ditto with the outside of the car.
Old 05-22-17, 10:37 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by norakat
Before I bought by 2016 ES 350 Luxury Ed., I shopped around and test drove the BMW 535 and 528i. After feeling the response, acceleration, sound and feeling of that car, it is always a disappointment to drive this car. The transmission and drive train on the ES is a big disappointment. It feels sluggish every time I accelerate from a stop. It is also not easy to do a controlled acceleration at low rates and speeds. Its like a struggle with this car. And yes it does feel like a regular Toyota at times (most of the time). It tries to be refined but is really not. The drive train is antiquated. Don't like the steering either. Maybe aspects of the suspension might be better for smaller bumps.

On the other hand, the BMW interior is not very impressive while the ES looks very nice. Ditto with the outside of the car.
Different calibers of car, if you liked the 5 Series but wanted Lexus quality and interior you should have gotten a GS. The ES is not designed to compete with the 5 Series, its a much cheaper car, transverse/FWD shared with Toyota, etc. You would find the GS would fix the areas where you're unhappy with the ES. Of course, the GS would be too tight in the back for your executive car use. You'd have to go to an LS which would be a big jump in price.

What you should look at is a Genesis G80. Mainly ride focused suspension design, price point of the ES with the build being the caliber of the 5 series or GS. If I were to buy a sedan under $55k, thats what I would buy


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