SW17LS

I had two different versions of the ES, the ES has never been Cadillac or old-school Buick floaty soft. My 2003 ES wasn't that way, nor was my 2010 ES. None of my LS sedans have been that way either, so its not like Lexus has "abandoned" a floaty boaty ride, they never offered that. The "Lexus ride" has always been firm, but compliant and very polished and refined. It has never been a mushy, floaty sort of ride.

I firmly believe that the reason people feel this way about this generation ES is wheels and tires. Lexus specifies higher pressure in tires now for fuel economy reasons, and if people would air their tires down to 30-31PSI I think you would be happier with the ride. Thats what I did with my GS and my LS and it made a notable impact on the ride with no adverse tire wear. If you have an ES350 on 18s that has a huge impact on the ride.

lesz

Absolutely on both points.

The 2006 Generation 4 ES that I owned had 16 inch wheels with higher profile tires and a recommended pressure of 29 psi. My 2017 ES has 18 inch wheels, lower profile tires, and a recommended pressure of 33 psi. Frankly, there isn't a huge amount of difference in the ride firmness of the two cars, but I'm confident that any difference that exists is related to the lower profile tires and higher tire pressure on the 2017. With the same tire profile and the same tire pressure, I suspect that most people would have difficulty telling the difference between the ride firmness of the two cars.

I also agree that I've never been in any Lexus vehicle of any age whose ride would compare to the floaty ride quality of an older Cadillac or Buick, and, if a Lexus did have that kind of ride, it would be a vehicle that I would not want buy because the last thing I want is to feel like the car is floating up and down like a boat cutting across the waves.

SW17LS

I agree 100%. My 2010 ES350 on 17s and the 2013 ES350s I drove also on 17s when I was shopping for that car rode almost identically IMHO, to where if you had your eyes shut you wouldn't be able to tell which one you were in. This is with the tire pressure set the same.

My 2010 ES was a little more dynamic, a little sportier than my 2003 ES, but that didn't detract from ride quality, it was just a lot snappier in terms of power, and didn't have as much lean in turns and squat and dive when accelerating or decelerating, it rode every bit as good.

Buddiiee

No, even though the original poster might have been talking about the ES, I'm talking about all the Lexuses I test drove (gs and is); they were a lot firmer than I had thought. (can't imagine the es is any better) I was thinking I was going to feel something similar to my 1977 Chrysler New Yorker which rode like a dream. The pot holes in my area are horrible, though I would have never known had I been in my New Yorker lol. All I was trying to say was who is Lexus trying to appeal to. I still haven't met a person over 30 that demands stiff rides like these. Where are these people at? If you're well off (read: older lol) enough to where you could walk into a Lexus dealership and purchase a 40,000 dollar car, I'm very sure you're not looking for a "sporty" feel. Again, there's already more than enough cars with that market already cornered way before Lexus decided to try their hand at it. I'm not sure a luxury brand will do well gunning for a single attribute of a car that is in exactly opposite niches. It's not logical from my perspective that's all.

Buddiiee

Is that why my car's tire pressure placard reads soo high? Fuel economy? Dam. I thought they were pretty high pressures lol. Every other car I've ever worked on was around 32 all the way around lol.

SW17LS

This explains everything LOL. You drove the two firmest, sportiest Lexus sedans, the GS and IS. The ES and LS are the softly sprung, more luxurious cars and they drive totally differently than the GS and IS which are specifically supposed to be the firmer sport sedans.

The ES is an entirely different sort of ride, you just chose to drive the absolute wrong models for your needs lol.

This is why we have choices...there certainly are plenty of people that are looking for sporty cars, and $40,000 is not an expensive car at all nowadays. MANY very hard riding sports cars cost more than $40,000. I had a GS and loved it, its just a different sort of car and it was a fun experience to have.

But...no modern car is going to ride like your 77 New Yorker. Thats just an entirely different era of automobile. Put that into a highway offramp at 55MPH and see how it does, try a lane change maneuver at high speeds. The best riding modern car you can possibly buy today rides nothing like that. Great in a straight line, scary on anything else.

zes

First thing I did after I bought my ES was to drop the pressures to 30psi and reset the tire pressure monitoring system so that it would not keep showing up with red numerals for pressure.
One also has to remember to tell the dealer not to reset the pressures to 40 psi at every oil change. They tend to do that, i.e. fix things that are not broken.

I had to do that because the ride was too harsh for me.

savon

I have both 2007 and 2016 ES350. My 07 has more than 120k miles on it and I drive it on weekends. I can tell you there is difference in ride quality. Every time I drive my 07, I tell myself I wish my '16 ES suspension was like 07. It is pure pleasure riding in my older ES compare to newer one. Even though it has 120k miles on those suspensions, it still rides softer than new ES. Lowering tire pressure couple of psi has minimal effect on suspension and ride quality in my opinion.
If Lexus was trying to increase their sales by appealing to younger people with more sportier car, my question is did they really succeed? are they selling more ES every year than before. I dont know the sales number. My guess is even if they sell more, it isnt that significant. If they want sell more cars they should do what BMW and Mercedes do, lease them with cheap financing. ES and LS were advertised and sold as quiet and smooth luxury sedans for 2 decades.They have the GS and IS for people who want a sporty car. Why change? If itsn't broke, don't fix it.

Buddiiee

So the ES's are that much softer? I've never considered it because I LOATHE wrong wheel drive cars. I hate constantly having to feather the throttle in the rain and snow. No need to now that AWD's becoming more prevalent. (I wanna test drive one now though lol) (oh yea, my old cars were never "scary" on the road. I've never felt like I didn't have complete control.)

I guess the reason (regardless of the model) I was soo confused when I bought this car was that I never forgot the reputation Lexus was trying to garner back in the 90's with the silky smooth, super quiet rides they had. It all made soo much sense to me; offer something in the "smooth and quiet" category, with a really nice, really exotic Japanese flair to it, for just a touch more affordable price than the German & American rivals. (back then in the 90's Lexus was still kinda new, thus "exotic")
Suffice to say I bought into it. Coming from the days where our luxury only brands never thought of offering "smooth", "kind of smooth" & "not smooth at all" ride qualities, I assumed the others were this way too; I didn't think they had any other options other than "super smooth". Why would they, they're a luxury only brand. That's your ENTIRE bread and butter: luxury, period. That's how you make your money. Like Corvette. Would they do good trying to meddle into another category they know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about-luxury rides? How many Corvettes would we sell if we offered a "smooth" ride version? None lol, because that segment's not shopping for a hybrid "luxury" "race car" lol. Right?

Same thing with this really nice luxury brand. I didn't think there were soo many ride options for a purely luxury brand. Because I can tell you these GS & IS's ride the same as any other plain old car out there with zero difference. Once you "firm up" the suspension, you mind as well be in a 2008 cream white Impala, or a 2003 **** blue Taurus. What would be the difference now? You see what I'm saying? You cant base your entire existence on one set of attributes (smooth and quiet) then half way through, out of nowhere say "We're going to now compete in the car niche that has absolutely nothing to do with really smooth and quiet rides now." lol. Because that's what happened.

I'm telling you guys, you're forgetting the ride qualities of all the other standard, vanilla pedestrian cars that are out there. They've WAYYYY MORE than caught up to Lexus. But Lexus never responded Trust me, your car rides no better than your soccer mom neighbor's 2000 Dodge Stratus. It's just been a while since you've compared both back to back. (in similar state of repair) You've forgotten the original point of this brand, which was to absolutely blow your socks off with your first test drive. It was supposed to be far and away better than everyone else in terms of smooth straight line ride quality and cabin quietness. (no one needs a car that can take a sharp on-ramp at 90, get over it lol. sure it feels cool to be able to say your car's capable of it, but not only are you most likely not using the car in that fashion anyway, if you are, it's highly irresponsible & illegal lol) Now the gap's closed dramatically and I was taken off guard. I guess I just went into it with a 90's era mentality. Back then there was no comparing Lexus's ride quality & cabin noise to our domestic offerings; they weren't even in the same ballpark-and when I drive today's Lexuses, I'm not seeing the massive disparity that there was back then. That's ok, I still love my Lexus after three weeks, I love the peace of mind I get with the build quality & reliability reputation they've built for themselves, and I love the history. I like the niche they've carved out for themselves. I park this car with pride, and still look back every now & then when I walk away from it. I'll replace this car with another Lexus in a few years, and will buy my wife one of their SUV's next year. They're still one of the best cars on the road, if not the best for the money.

SW17LS

Here's the question...what are your tires aired to on each car, and does your 16 ES have 18" wheels or 17" wheels? What sort of tires are on your 07 vs your 16? I get the ES often as a loaner, the loaners are always equipped with 17's and I just don't see the car as poorly riding, even compared to my LS. I've also owned multiple generations of the LS, and while the LS is a little more dynamic than it used to be, it really doesn't reduce ride quality.

EDIT- Looked in your older posts and I see you have a UL with the 18" wheels which didn't surprise me at all. The 18s have a huge impact on the ride, the car rides much better on the 17s. Since you have both cars I would suggest an experiment, take the wheels off your 07 and put them on your 16...I bet you will be surprised to find your 16 now rides very similarly to your 07.

Same way on the LS, the car rides much better on the 18s than it does on the 19s, I specifically chose a car on the 18s for that reason.

IMHO the ES remains one of the best riding cars you can buy for under $50,000.

Its considerably softer than the GS and especially the IS. I too prefer RWD or RWD biased AWD cars but I had no issue with the 10 years or so I drove the ES. Even today, I would never buy an IS over an ES. I would buy a GS, but not an IS.

To be clear...this isn't Lexus' fault its really your fault. You didn't take the time to understand their offerings and understand what products they had. I would also disagree that Lexus sells anything that is "not smooth at all". I have driven every product Lexus sells and have done so through multiple generations at this point, everything except perhaps the CT and the old HS, and the NX SUV isn't great, is a very smooth car its just that some of them are firmer and sportier than others. What would be the point of them making a bunch of different cars that all drove the same way?

You're confusing your own preferences in a car with what "everybody" wants. While I also prefer what you prefer there are many people who don't agree with us. There are many people for whom a Lexus was never an option because they never offered sporty or excellent handling. Thats changing with some of their models and it opens the brand up to new sets of buyers which is a good thing.

Also remember, sales are up not down so your argument that Lexus is alienating all of their buyers isn't accurate, and if you choose the proper Lexus product for your needs theres no issue. You could have bought an ES350 for the same money you paid for your IS and you would be much happier with it. Instead, you chose to buy the smallest, sportiest car (poorest riding) they offer when you want the best riding car you can buy. Its like buying chicken for dinner, and complaining that it doesn't taste like beef.

Thats because you don't understand or appreciate what makes them different. They are certainly totally different, they are much more dynamic and fun to drive. My GS was the most fun car I've ever had, while it also delivered a very good ride for what it was with the adaptive suspension. My LS rides much better, and I love that but I will tell you there are times I'd rather have the GS back because it is fun to drive on the right road, etc.

No, again you have chosen not to sample the best riding cars the brand offers and condemn the whole brand for it. The two cars you chose are the two hardest riding cars they make. My Lexus certainly rides much better than that because I chose the right model for my needs. You have no idea how a member with an ES's car rides or how my LS rides because you've never driven either car, so don't tell me what my car rides like.

When you do that, take the time to understand all the cars the brand offers and sample them all and choose the one that actually suits your needs lol. I've actually owned Lexus vehicles from the 90s, and I can tell you my modern ES and LS vehicles still ride just as well. The bigger wheels they use now have an impact, but that can be mitigated with the right tire choices and running lower pressures.

For instance I can drive over a speed bump at 45 MPH and barely feel it...as I could in my 04 LS and my 98 LS. Try that in your IS lol

And again, I am telling you you have only driven the two hardest riding by design Lexus cars so you have no idea what you are talking about.

peteharvey

Traditionally, motor vehicles are designed based on quantitative & qualitative [objective & subjective] scientific surveys.
Surveys unify multiple differences in opinion.
Surveys are like democracy, where democracy [voting] is the power of the majority.
The majority rules.

However, here it is based on President Akio's personal wishes - and nothing wrong with that, but his personal tastes can affect the so called "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
Others would remark at how President Akio should focus on being "himself", rather than focus on trying to be someone else like Maserati etc.
Originally, President Akio remarked that how Maserati etc, had a famous following, while Toyota/Lexus had "nothing", hence he wanted Toyota/Lexus to have more inspired styling and dynamics so that they could follow in the footsteps of the famous European marques like Maserati etc.





Anyhow, we have to accept President Akio's occasional loopy looking car like the new Prius, and some bland Infiniti-inspired 5LS.
We also have to accept this new so called "inspired" driving dynamics.

Both Toyota & Lexus are in the process of "lowering" their latest models like the 2018 Camry and the 2018 5LS by lowering the seating position and hip points for more inspired driving dynamics!
TMC has made their springs, especially the front coil springs more firm to limit body roll, to limit weight transfer to the outside wheels, for sharper steering response ie faster changes in direction, and for higher terminal grip on the skid pan as well.
TMC has firmed their shock absorbers on certain models like going from 3GS to 4GS and 4.5GS.
Meanwhile I have never test driven the original 6ES, but some say that the shockies, esp the front shockies on 6ES has softened in the 2016 6.5ES midlife update.

My 2015 4GS had front shockies with different part numbers that were actually beefed up; I spent thousands of dollars retrofitting the original 2013 4GS front shockies that were softer and floatier.
However, the 4GS front coil springs were still too firm, and there is no softer front coils for the 3.5 V6 available, and it wouldn't be right to use the GS200t's front shockies, even if they were softer.

I had to downsize to 18" wheels, but I could not downsize to 17" wheels because the front brake rotors wouldn't fit, but I'm not sure I'd want to downsize to 17" anyway due to the "look".
However, this is still not a soft enough ride.

I had to do the Pirelli Cinturato P7 All Season Plus route.
The local tire dealer accidentally put on an excessively high load and speed rating via 235/45R18 98Y.
They then replaced the wrong load and speed rating with 235/45R18 94W.
Having tested both the 98Y and the 94W, I can tell you that the identical tire, same make, same model, same size, same profile etc, but different load and speed ratings, the lower the load/speed rating, the softer and quieter the tires!

I also run my tires at slightly lower pressures than the manufacturer's recommendations.
Lexus recommends 33 PSI.
I use 32 PSI, and I check monthly.
I can tell you that after 18 months, the left and right edges of the tires are slightly and visibly more worn down than the center of the tires due to underinflation.
I only drive at 60 mph max, but I wouldn't want to be taking my car to 120 mph with my 32 PSI.

I would recommend that TMC make two completely different suspension settings, with different coils, different shockies, and different sway bars for the base model GS, and a sportier heavy duty set up for the F Sport version, rather than making ALL 6ES's firm - which is what they are presently doing.

Me? I can't wait till President Akio gets his act together with Toyota/Lexus styling and dynamics/comfort.
I would recommend that he be himself, and allow Toyota/Lexus to do what they are traditionally best at, rather than try to be someone else to attain the inspiration of Maserati etc...

SW17LS

The bottom line is Pete really you should have bought an ES or LS instead of your GS.

As several of us have said repeatedly in this thread, the 6ES is really not more firm than precious ES sedans. Most people who complain about ride have the 18" wheels, which have a huge impact on the ride.

lesz

From reading lots of threads on both the ES board and the GS board, I'm confident in guessing that there are at least a few people who have bought a GS and who probably should have bought an ES and also a few people who bought an ES and who probably should have bought a GS.

SW17LS

For sure. When I went to the GS I did it fully knowing that I was buying a firmer car than what I typically buy, but I was surprised by how much I enjoyed the experience of having something light and fun, and how comfortable it still was. Ultimately I decided ride vs sportiness is my thing, I was happy to have had the experience. I think the reason I was happy was that I had an accurate expectation of the experience I would have. Had I been expecting my GS to ride like my ESs or LSs I would have been really dissapointed, and had I expected them to be as fun to drive as the GS I would have been equally disappointed.

peteharvey

Maybe the GS was the wrong choice, but the ES is not a true replacement with an awkwardly long front overhang, and rather peculiar styling esp at the apex of the rear windows, and the trunk, and the nose heavy front drive layout with cheap single lower link suspension which does not keep the tires perpendicular to the road surface to maximize grip.

Might have to swing back to Mercedes with a combination of badge, styling, space, engine, chassis and comfort.

There is no single perfect car.
It's all a compromise of pros and cons.
Pick which set of pros and cons best suits each individual.

Constructively, it would help if Lexus made two completely different suspension settings for the ES etc.
One regular setting for comfort, and one for sports.
Benz and Beamer do this.
With the ES and GS as far as I know, they just beef up the front shockies, and change the wheel/tire specs, and maybe add four wheel steering.

Back in the 80's and 90's, Toyota used to go to all the trouble of making body variations like sedans and hardtops.
And the hardtops used to use heavy duty suspension eg heavy duty springs, heavy duty shockies, and heavy duty sway bars.
It can't be too hard to make two different suspension settings, especially if the Germans already have such offerings.

For example, the 1986-90 Toyota Camry:


The sportier Toyota Camry Prominent Hardtop:


The Lexus ES250:


Just upgrading the front shockies and the wheel/tire trim is not enough, because we are all left to deal with the same rigid coil springs and the same rigid sway bars.

The OP isn't crazy when he asks for suspension modifications for a softer ride.
TMC President Akio has deliberately stated that he wants more inspired styling and dynamics.
However, he can satisfy a much larger group if he designs two separate suspension trims.
Lexus already has a second set of front shockies and wheels/tires for the GS - it can't be that much harder to develop a second set of front coil springs and front sways bars.
More often than not, manufacturers only upgrade the front suspension for sportier handling/ride characteristics, rather than upgrading both the front and rear suspension.

Traditionally, TMC would develop a standard set up, and people who wished a sportier set up could easily obtain a sportier suspension set up aftermarket.
However, now that TMC has President Akio's sportier suspension set up as standard, it is almost impossible to obtain a softer and more comfortable set up aftermarket.
This is because it is easy to beef up the suspension for flatter handling, but it is very difficult and dangerous to soften the suspension with softer coils and sway bars, resulting in more body roll and weight transfer to the outside wheels, which compromizes the four wheel grip.

The biggest problem with firm sporty suspension set ups isn't so much the shock and the less comfortable ride - of greater concern to many is the creaks and rattles that the firm ride causes...

.