coach1

ElliotB....ditto. Couldn't have said it better. I have owned BMW's, Mercedes, and a boat load of American built. (ps: I think I heard the ES with be built here in the US). What impressed me with a SC430 Lexus I owned, is after 9yrs, and 80K miles, every single thing worked as new, and never had to take it in for a repair problem, only normal maintenance.

If I wanted more luxury and wanted to spend the money I would buy the LS460. Stack the ES350 against anything in this price range, I believe you come out a winner.

LexBob2

I just saw the CR article that this thread is based on. The breathless title is a little misleading. The Impala's Price As Tested was $39.1K ($35.8k Base Price).

It doesn't diminish the good review that it received but it's a far cry from the $25k mentioned in the title.

SW17LS

I understand that...I've had two LSs, two ESs and now a GS. But, what I can tell you as someone who has owned two different generations of the ES and shopped heavily for a third before upgrading, when it comes to build and material quality they have steadily reduced both over the years with the ES to the point where IMHO the new ES does not have materials as high quality as other vehicles at its price point...including the new IS. When I bought my '03 ES new it was the opposite, the ES felt like a much more expensive car than it was, and felt MUCH more expensive than other cars available at that price point, to me now it doesn't feel like a $43,000 car. As a Lexus enthusiast that troubles me, and I think they are understanding that when you look at the materials they chose for the IS at the same price point.

Being the sales leader isn't the point, the point is to build a car that sets the bar in the industry, which Lexus has done in the past but does less so now. If they continue to let quality slide, they won't be the sales leader for long.

My point isn't really about Lexus though, the Impala doesn't compete with the ES. My point is towards the vehicles offered under the Toyota brand.

No auto folding mirrors on the GS BTW, and no power trunk.

coach1

SW...Do you feel Lexus has cheapen the car? The older cars did seem bulletproof, but I saw the same in the Mercedes. Older models were virtual tanks, where the newer versions were improved with lighter weight materials and more powerful engines. BMW interiors sucked then and now, I do give them for the exterior styling, for which the sticker is $10K more.

I feel the difference compared to my 03, I try to concentrate on the improved performance and size. The same tried and true V6 produces more HP yet runs on regular gas and the cabin space has increased significantly. Personally....I disliked the 2012 and earlier ES interiors. The 2013 redesign interior brought me around....as for the exterior, , I'm getting use to it. I'm still convinced it is a good choice and ya'll are right when you say time will tell.

SW17LS

Absolutely. My 2010 ES was not as nice inside as my 2003 ES, and I was completely dissatisfied with the materials in the 2013 ES which is why I upgraded to the GS. On the exterior on the 2013 the car is not as nicely finished and trimmed out, exhaust tips were welded on the 2010, they are just cheap clip on pep-boy type jobs on the 2013. The 2010 had nice fully painted mirrors, the 2013 has black plastic trim on the back around the glass (which is glossy black paint on my GS). My 2003 had a fully padded dash, wide expanses of wood, triple stitched leather that was very similar in quality to what was in my dad's LS, the 2010 had cheaper, thinner plastics, way less wood, cheaper single stitched leather, thinner carpeting. The 2013 has way more hard, unpadded plastic on the doors, dash, around the door handles, no more wood on the console or around the window switches, leather feels rougher and lower quality outside of the UL. The door jambs aren't as nicely finished (you can see a strip of paint where before it was completely finished). The car rides firmer and is a little louder by most accounts, although I was too focused on the interior to really judge.

I like the styling of the 2013's interior over my previous 2010, but theres no comparing the quality or feel of it IMHO. Its not that it isn't a good choice, it is, its just no longer a leader in any way. Its "adequate" for the class, which a Lexus should never be.

coach1

I can't disagree, you make all good points. My older cars had leather on the door panels, tougher leather seats, nicer wood treatments, etc. May be a sign of the time. I also would buy 3-4yr old to get the upgrade for less......all todays cars maybe obsolete in a few yrs. .... Volts & Tesla.

LexBob2

Also misleading in the thread title is the fact that Lexus isn't mentioned in this CR article. It merely says "This new Chevy outscores luxury sedans costing $20,000 more, including the Acura RLX and Jaguar XF reviewed on page 54."

Me thinks the OP stretched things a bit in his headline.

SW17LS

The OP has his agenda, and we've heard it ad nauseum. Lexus is mentioned in the article though:

LexBob2

Yes those quotes are from the AP article. I was referring to the review in the (CR) magazine.

SW17LS

I havent even read the CR article, I'm just talking about the article the OP posted

gemigniani

2014 Impala is $27K http://www.truecar.com/prices-new/ch...mpala-pricing/ And as we all know, after a year when the novelty of the car wears off dealers will be selling them for $3-5k off.

Whether or not one orders a $27k or 39k Impala, it will still be superior to the ES in the qualities Consumer Reports described. That said, the 2014 Impala will very likely turn out to be as much of a POS (after 50,000 miles or so of use) as previous Impalas were; hence resale value will be bad. E.g. ride smoothness will greatly deteriorate, seat padding will flatten and so forth.

LexPaul

I have to agree with you, and it pains me to do so, for some reason Lexus has lowered the quality of the ES, I can tell compared with my wife's 05 ES 330, my 09 comes up lacking, but not by much though, its just built better and has a more solid feel and ride, no question about it.

I think the problem is Lexus is trying to contain their costs for the consumer and the only way to accomplish that is by cutting quality and ditching features. Another issue is that Lexus targets mpg rating as a 'gold' standard and to meet those low ratings it has to reduce weight (that's one way, and probably the cheapest), the car is lighter but at a cost to overall quality IMO.

The 13 ES is a great looking car All car companies try to dethrone the leader, just look at the 3-series, everyone has it in it's bulls-eye (just look at the 14 IS, Caddy ATS), and that is where Lexus (ES) could slip and no longer be the leader, because the competition is getting better and better.

I 'm an enthusiast just as yourself, a real cheerleader, but it seems like Lexus is going for 'performance' , I believe they still have comfort as a 'standard', but marrying the two into a happy marriage seems problematic right now. Maybe to 'have it all' would just make the car too expensive for it's class. CS in the past has always noted the ride comfort, fit and finish and quality of materials with the ES. Lexus is 'listening' and I believe that they will come back and get it right.

SW17LS

This is what you are missing though...it always has been this way. These full-size Chevy, Ford cars have always rode very well, been very quiet, and have always been superior to the ES in those areas. You talk as if this is some recent development and its not.

I think the new Impala will age far better than previous Impalas. Time will tell.

Yep, its unfortunate but its true. Hopefully the shift to US production will help contain costs and give them some more to work with...

LexBob2

If they choose to, or think it's necessary, it wouldn't be too difficult to upgrade interior trim pieces etc. with the new model year.

The Toyota division did it with the Camry in the 2nd year of the new gen.

Toys4RJill

I can't agree with you more. General Motors products have almost always rode better than a comparable Japan product. General Motors products almost always have more features before Japanese cars get them. The trouble is, Gerneral Motors products are not as reliable.