RTSM

There are a lot of sub options to choose from, have kids and a challenging work schedule I no longer have free time like I did when I use to customize my car stereos' head units, rewire the entire system etc. I also did not want to sacrifice space either so I looked at pre-built subs that would fit cleanly under the rear deck bulk head. Here is the install I did, the two JL's rock. I had initially had the JL single ported HO sub and it was awesome but the sealed enclosure had a better sonic match to the stock speakers. The ported was ultra low but there was a gap between where the stock sub drops off and where the HO ported sub picks up.
I put a switch in the ash tray area to turn on and off the amps so that when my wife and relatives are in the car I can disable the amps/sub, when it is just me, my friends or my teenage son in the car we let the sub loose! The install is pretty simple if you have done car installs before, just make sure you get enough power cable as our car is long and 17' was just enough if you don't make any errors.

iceblast

I am getting a ton of rattle from the upper deck of the rear passenger seats. All I have is the stock sub (non-ML system), and it sounds even more terrible with the rattle.

Was thinking of dynamat to stop the resonance, but is there any particular area I should mod?

Thanks

Robert_J

Your stock sub is acting like a jack hammer since it is connected directly to the deck. I had the same issue but there is less rattle now with a 12" sub. I'm sure there is some rattle when I really crank it but I can't hear anything in the driver's seat but music.

iceblast

What type of RMS power rated speaker would you recommend for the rears (non-ML system), I will also be using the factory amp setup.

I want to buy high quality speakers but do not want them underpowered and sound like crap anyway ...
I was looking at the JL audio C2-600x ... They are rated at 15-60 RMS, but the range is 50Hz - 22KHz, which may not provide enough bass for me.

Please help thanks!

iceblast

I was also thinking the Polk Audio DB651 speakers (I know fairly cheap) for the rears. http://www.crutchfield.com/S-2ruGCBl...dio-db651.html
Definitely not a high end car stereo setup, but I have liked the Polk name before.

They have good reviews, and a 92DB sensitivity rating, which I think is ideal considering how low powered the stock amp is...

Robert_J

The amp puts out about 20w per channel so the wattage rating can be ignored. In fact, unless you are going nuts with a high powered systems (thousands of watts) you can ignore wattage rating on most speakers.

Audio myth alert!!!!! If "underpowered" speakers sounded like crap then every speaker made would sound bad when you turned down the volume. When listening at a level where you can talk to the passenger without yelling, you are pushing 2 or 3 watts of power to your mids and highs.

That said, continued playing of a distorted signal will cause the heat in the speaker's voice coil to build up and eventually lead to thermal failure.

The sub should handle the sound below 50hz. In my setup, I crossover my sub at 63hz.

Robert_J

Cheap? They are $99 at Crutchfield. My PG components were about $80.

It's not the price, it's the performance. My home speakers are based on a proven design from Parts Express and cost about $150 each in parts. They compare well to speakers costing about $2,000 each (based on knowledgeable reviewers. I had a chance to audition speakers that cost $55,000 / pair. They were pushed by a pair of mono amps that retail for $45,000 each. The record player was $25,000. My wife whispered to me and said "Those speakers sound better than yours but not that much better."

iceblast

Great insight. Thanks

KFinch

I'm a little late to this most recent discussion, but I went through this process around the same time as Robert J did, though in my case I was constrained to keep the stock head unit since I had bought navigation and blue tooth and all that in a brand new 2011 model. I was not about to scrap that, so I had to work with this.

A few observations (one of which will differ from Robert's):

What I initially planned to do was replace all four speakers and, perhaps, the stock subwoofer in the deck with a drop in replacement. In researching this and taking measurements on the sub, I determined that I would need a sub suitable for infinite baffle (sometimes called free air) and which had dual 2 ohm voice coils (to match the stock woofer). That's not easy to find. Plus, if you do find it, ripping out the deck to put in it would have been a huge chore and would have risked ruining the air bags. But even if you do go through all that, you will still have the problem that the output on the sub will be mismatched to the speakers in terms of volume output (probably too low), since the stock amp was not designed to drive the speaker and sub combination you choose. So, if you're going to replace the sub, you will need to an outboard amp to drive it. But if you're going to go to the trouble of peeling off a signal for an outboard amp, you might as well get an amp for all 5 speakers (which I discuss below).

If you really want your sub in the deck, and will drive it with an outboard amp, probably the best choice for me (and any typical ES driver) would have been the DLS OA8. A die hard over at DIY mobile audio went through a bunch of 8 inch IB subs for comparison, and concluded that this sub had the best sound quality. It was more limited in terms of power handling and raw output than other 8 inch IB subs, but I doubt most ES drivers are looking for a lot of boom. I think Peerless makes an "SLS 8" model available at parts express that would also make a decent choice.

So, in terms of what I actually chose to do, first, I replaced the 4 stock speakers with Polk MM series (6501 components up front, and 650 coax in back). These fit, with the right mounting brackets. However, the improvement to my ears was not as great as some here have reported (obviously, that's subjective and your mileage may vary). I was a tad disappointed. The stock amp, IMO, just isn't strong enough to do that. To be fair, though, I was still driving the stock sub with that amp. Had I relieved the stock amp of that duty, perhaps the amp might have been able to keep up somewhat. Also, not surprisingly, the stock sub sounded a bit off with the new speakers. It sounded as though there was too much frequency overlap. Plus driving the new speakers required head unit volume settings that produced (if I recall correctly) too much sub output. Obviously, you can partially correct this by reducing the bass output at the head unit, but that only helped so much.

I then became determined to replace the amp. Conclusion: you cannot simply replace the amp in any 2010 or later model. It's impossible to extract the audio signals from the digital communication line that runs from the head unit to the amp. Maybe you can do it with a 2009 and earlier using some sort of reverse of the Pac Tato, but I didn't even see anything that would work for those model years.

So, I decided to insert an aftermarket amp that would accept the audio input from the stock amp (rather than the head unit). I was a little hesitant to do this, because I was worried that putting too many amps in the chain and would sound lousy due to all the excess electronics degrading the signal. However, when I ultimately did it (with a refurbed Infinity Kappa Five amp direct from Harman Kardon on ebay), I was very pleasantly surprised at the upgrade in sound quality. This was a much bigger improvement for me than just replacing the speakers. The amp cost me $150 in an ebay auction. It puts out good clean power, but they seem to have quality control problems, because the first one eventually had a channel die on me, and the replacement they sent is sometimes a bit flakey. I've also come to conclude that Class D amps (including the fairly high end ones I have at home) all leave me just a little bit wanting sometimes when listening to music (but are great for home theater). I will probably end up replacing this.

To add an aftermarket amp to the chain like this, you will need to get wire harnesses that fit that stock amp (which was no small task to identify), and then the reverse of that to connect the new amp output to the harness that drives the speakers. I believe these harnesses are the same on the 2009 and earlier models as they are on the 2010-2012 models. The sub and center channel are on a separate harness out from the amp, which I just disconnected. If someone wants help locating these, I can try to dig up the make and model that worked (it's not what you would expect). You'll also need to run a big power wire (with a built in fuse) from the battery to the amp (presumably in the trunk), which I found to be more of a PITA than I expected.

Lastly, you will also need to find an amp that accepts high level (speaker level) inputs, or add a line level converter. There are a lot of amps that will accept speaker level inputs, so I'd recommend that route, rather than adding yet another potential source of signal degradation into the chain.

I then decided to add a real sub, and picked up a used Image Dynamics IDQ12 for about $90 shipped on ebay. It's been fantastic. In terms of the box, I took a chance and bought a pre-made box that is designed to fit perfectly under the rear deck in a Toyota Camry while providing about .9 cubic feet or a little more, which works well for the IDQ. I added just a little bit of poly fill to expand effective size of the box just a tad. This box more or less fits the ES 350, and I’m pleased with it, but it is not a perfect fit. For those of you who just want a 10 inch sub, I'm pretty sure you can find a sub (including the IDQ) that would work in a very small box that fits under the ledge easily. I know Robert fiddled with optimum placement, but I wasn't willing to take up real trunk space that way (golf clubs and other items take priority). Putting a 12 inch sub under the rear deck using an off-the-shelf square box would probably be challenging. I looked for awhile, I and I don't think I saw anything that seemed just right.

The signals for the front and/or rear door speakers together seem to be full spectrum (or close to it), so that you don't need to use the sub output to generate a subwoofer signal if you have an aftermarket amp with suitable crossovers. Contrary to some of the available information, it seems to me (and it’s just a guess) that the signal for the fronts goes all the way up but may lack some very low end bass, while the signal for the back goes lower but definitely lacks some treble. I’m fairly confident about the rear signal lacking some high end treble, but much less sure about the front signal lacking the deepest bass.

If I had it to all over again, I guess I would buy 6x9 component speakers for the front speakers. The stock speaker is a 6.5 that is molded into a 6x9 speaker mounting bracket that seals with foam against the door panel to create isolation. You can't really duplicate that foam isolation with a 6.5 inch replacement. You can seal the bracket to the metal door itself, but there are enough holes in the metal part of the door that I question the quality of the baffle isolation without the seal. Now that I have the bug, I plan to replace the mid woofers in the door with a pair of 6x9 CDT mid woofers that I picked up on ebay. Using good 6x9s, plus recreating that seal, might generate enough bass so that you don't need a sub (though I certainly plan to keep mine).

One drawback to all this is that you lose the value of the equalization in the head unit (I set mine to "off" now). Because I have now gone completely insane, I plan to add a JBL ms-8 to provide the equalization for the specific speakers in this car cabin. This will also allow me to replace the tweeters and woofers in the front and use the crossover in the MS-8 to do that. The Polk MMs are ok, but I want to try some Image Dynamics tweeters that should be much better. Also, although it could be my imagination, I'm not entirely convinced that the stock amp output for the front and/or rear speakers includes the lowest bass. The MS-8 will allow me to integrate the sub output from the stock amp, though I won't be surprised if I find that it's better to just use the door channels. But I digress.

Having said all that, using an aftermarket amp with decent 6.5 inch replacements in the front doors and any semi-decent subwoofer in the trunk should be more than enough improvement for most sane people. My wife finally drove my car recently and though I was nuts for wanting to take the time and effort to improve the system any further.

KFinch

Also, let me add to that long-winded post with the observation that the non-Levinson models up through 2009 used the JBL amp (I think), whereas the 2010-2013 models use a Pioneer amp. It may be that the Pioneer amp lacks some of the power of the old JBL amp.

iceblast

Maybe, or maybe not. I recently drove a '10 ES 350 (non ML) vs. my 07 ES 350 (non ML) and the system seemed to be significantly louder at a volume of around 30.

May be the amp, or other factors, but I found the '10 ES to be better powered.

Robert_J

If there was one solution then there would only be one set of speakers/amps/etc on the market. You found what worked for you and that's great.

iceblast

Hey, you're post has inspired me to add an aftermarket amp as well. I want to get as much bass out of my new coaxs and components and maybe add a small sub later.

What wiring harness did you acquire that fits the stock amp? I would like to do the same thing. I am pretty comfortable tapping into the wires myself, but would prefer to do it the clean way.

Thanks.

Robert_J

For your components, replace the 6.5's with the Exodus Audio Anarchy mids. They can move more air than most 8's.

KFinch

This one (an old Suzuki harness) will plug into the amp. Notice it accepts 7 pins across on the bottom, and on top it splits 3 on one side and 2 on the other side. Unfortunately, one of the slots you need on the "3" side doesn't have a connector in it, so you need to move one to that slot from another slot on the "3" side. You need all the slots on the "2" side, but only need one pair of slots (top and bottom) on the "3" side - the pair closest to the "2" side. You also need the pair that joins them on the bottom row (under the clip). Hope that made sense.

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...a-71-7992.html

This one (its mate) fits into the speaker wire harness for the amp output. Same issue with moving a pin, I believe.

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...a-70-7992.html

I was unable to find any other harnesses that had that weird pattern, including those for Toyota or Lexus. I might have a labeled pin assignment chart for the factory harness - I'll look for it later.

If you want it, the harness that feeds the subwoofer and center dash speaker is more standard. I think it's the larger one of these two that come as a set (but, again, not all pins are used):

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...a-71-1398.html

But I just have that harness unhooked and generate the sub signal from the signal to the door speakers. And, of course, I don't run anything back to the stock subwoofer or the center dash speaker.

Where the 2007-09 ES differs from the 2010-11 is the Harness from the head unit. So, if you have a 2009 or earlier, I can't help you with "Remote" turn on wire. The 2010-11 uses a very small harness with very small pins for that.

Let us know how it goes!