Cold start diesel sound (rehashed again)
07-26-07, 06:12 AM
#1
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Cold start diesel sound (rehashed again)
In the 8/07 Motor Trend magazine, on page 148, they test a 2008 Cadillac STS V6 car. In reading the road test, they notate that "most direct-injection cars start up with a gravely diesel voice". Does our ES350 have a direct injection system that might explain the diesel knock noise, summer and winter?
07-26-07, 07:25 AM
#2
Diesel Sound - Direct Injection
When I first brought this start up noise to the attention of my dealer, the service manager told me this noise was due to the direct injection. He said the increased power and MPG over the previous generation engine was also due to the direct injection. Since this noise is only for a brief time at start up, I feel this is a good trade off.
07-26-07, 09:06 AM
#3
Lexus Champion
From my understanding, the ES350 does not use a direct injection system on the engine. Besides, my ES has NEVER had this diesel knock noise, whether cold or hot, or in situations where the engine was started after sitting for a few weeks. My car happens to have a very early build date of March, 2006, so I guess it's the "Luck of the Draw" whether your car is plagued by this problem or not.
07-26-07, 09:16 AM
#4
Lexus Champion
From my understanding, the ES350 does not use a direct injection system on the engine. Besides, my ES has NEVER had this diesel knock noise, whether cold or hot, or in situations where the engine was started after sitting for a few weeks. My car happens to have a very early build date of March, 2006, so I guess it's the "Luck of the Draw" whether your car is plagued by this problem or not.
07-26-07, 10:28 AM
#5
I just assumed it was CSK. Both our ES and RX 'suffer' from it, although it's much more noticeable in the RX. The noise insulation in the ES is just amazing.
As ugly as it sounds, I don't believe this is a cause for concern. It's also been well documented in GM Vortec engines since '99 with no related failures (at least that I'm aware of).
As ugly as it sounds, I don't believe this is a cause for concern. It's also been well documented in GM Vortec engines since '99 with no related failures (at least that I'm aware of).
07-26-07, 01:23 PM
#6
Engine noise ?????
From my understanding, the ES350 does not use a direct injection system on the engine. Besides, my ES has NEVER had this diesel knock noise, whether cold or hot, or in situations where the engine was started after sitting for a few weeks. My car happens to have a very early build date of March, 2006, so I guess it's the "Luck of the Draw" whether your car is plagued by this problem or not.
Could this be true???
Nick
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topanga (04-24-17)
07-26-07, 04:19 PM
#7
The ticking noise is a 100% normal and UNHARMFUL characteristic of the new low friction roller rocker arm valvetrain of the ES350 V6 (the low friction contributes to the outstanding fuel economy of the ES350 V6). No one will ever link the noise to wear because wear isn't happening. Historically, Toyotas most fuel efficient and durable engines (e.g the 3AC and 4AC Corolla motors and the 1985-95 22RE motor) made alot of cold engine valvetrain racket. But when owners and mechanics examined the valvetrain parts of these engines that are making the racket they found no significant wear, even after hundreds of thousands of miles.
Could this be true???
Nick
Could this be true???
Nick
Might I add that I am going to live with the noise while I am still under warranty and sell the car just before 50K miles. So, if anything does happen, Lexus will pay for the repair. I am done fighting with service about this, I have more important things to worry about like what kind of car am I going to replace the ES with
. But, very disappointed on how Lexus is handling the situation.
Last edited by MD350; 07-26-07 at 04:25 PM.
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07-26-07, 05:12 PM
#8
Nick, I know what the "Toyota tick" sounds like. It is very common and harmless. This is a diesel sounding knock, very loud. My wife knows nothing about cars and asked me what is wrong with my car when she heard it. It is not a "tick" by any means.
Might I add that I am going to live with the noise while I am still under warranty and sell the car just before 50K miles. So, if anything does happen, Lexus will pay for the repair. I am done fighting with service about this, I have more important things to worry about like what kind of car am I going to replace the ES with. But, very disappointed on how Lexus is handling the situation.
Might I add that I am going to live with the noise while I am still under warranty and sell the car just before 50K miles. So, if anything does happen, Lexus will pay for the repair. I am done fighting with service about this, I have more important things to worry about like what kind of car am I going to replace the ES with
. But, very disappointed on how Lexus is handling the situation.
Nick
07-26-07, 10:53 PM
#9
The posts on this thread jump from tick to knock to thump. My ES has none of these (4/07 build) - I was told by my service adviser that the insignificant additional engine 'noise' comes from the change from a timing belt to a timing chain.
07-27-07, 05:58 AM
#10
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I've seen this all too often on this forum, there are two noises...
1. A diesel "knock" sound like preignition, kind of a gurgling noise like a diesel engine... This is in fact piston slap and if one 2GR-FE engine has this noise, they all do, get over it it's inherent in the engine's design. Thermal expansion of metals inside the engine dictate the need to have different tolerances... The pistons are aluminum, the cylinders are steel, the piston has nearly no skirt on it.
2. The "Cannery Works" which is often confused with the diesel knock/piston slap has to do with the valve train... In my experience, my engine would purr like a sewing machine but other times sound like it was eating itself apart. It was never consistent and I think some cars may tend to make the noises most of the time while others are a bit quieter.
The reason I see people mixing these up is because #2 is all the tickity-clatter-tick-tick crap the car makes at idle and it can be fairly loud, especially in an enclosed space like a garage... Since diesel engines/trucks are known to be noisey, people liken the valve noise to the dieseling noise, which really should be reserved for the gurgling and knocking noises of piston slap and preignition
1. A diesel "knock" sound like preignition, kind of a gurgling noise like a diesel engine... This is in fact piston slap and if one 2GR-FE engine has this noise, they all do, get over it it's inherent in the engine's design. Thermal expansion of metals inside the engine dictate the need to have different tolerances... The pistons are aluminum, the cylinders are steel, the piston has nearly no skirt on it.
2. The "Cannery Works" which is often confused with the diesel knock/piston slap has to do with the valve train... In my experience, my engine would purr like a sewing machine but other times sound like it was eating itself apart. It was never consistent and I think some cars may tend to make the noises most of the time while others are a bit quieter.
The reason I see people mixing these up is because #2 is all the tickity-clatter-tick-tick crap the car makes at idle and it can be fairly loud, especially in an enclosed space like a garage... Since diesel engines/trucks are known to be noisey, people liken the valve noise to the dieseling noise, which really should be reserved for the gurgling and knocking noises of piston slap and preignition
07-27-07, 12:51 PM
#12
Lexus Champion
I've seen this all too often on this forum, there are two noises...
1. A diesel "knock" sound like preignition, kind of a gurgling noise like a diesel engine... This is in fact piston slap and if one 2GR-FE engine has this noise, they all do, get over it it's inherent in the engine's design. Thermal expansion of metals inside the engine dictate the need to have different tolerances... The pistons are aluminum, the cylinders are steel, the piston has nearly no skirt on it.
2. The "Cannery Works" which is often confused with the diesel knock/piston slap has to do with the valve train... In my experience, my engine would purr like a sewing machine but other times sound like it was eating itself apart. It was never consistent and I think some cars may tend to make the noises most of the time while others are a bit quieter.
The reason I see people mixing these up is because #2 is all the tickity-clatter-tick-tick crap the car makes at idle and it can be fairly loud, especially in an enclosed space like a garage... Since diesel engines/trucks are known to be noisey, people liken the valve noise to the dieseling noise, which really should be reserved for the gurgling and knocking noises of piston slap and preignition
1. A diesel "knock" sound like preignition, kind of a gurgling noise like a diesel engine... This is in fact piston slap and if one 2GR-FE engine has this noise, they all do, get over it it's inherent in the engine's design. Thermal expansion of metals inside the engine dictate the need to have different tolerances... The pistons are aluminum, the cylinders are steel, the piston has nearly no skirt on it.
2. The "Cannery Works" which is often confused with the diesel knock/piston slap has to do with the valve train... In my experience, my engine would purr like a sewing machine but other times sound like it was eating itself apart. It was never consistent and I think some cars may tend to make the noises most of the time while others are a bit quieter.
The reason I see people mixing these up is because #2 is all the tickity-clatter-tick-tick crap the car makes at idle and it can be fairly loud, especially in an enclosed space like a garage... Since diesel engines/trucks are known to be noisey, people liken the valve noise to the dieseling noise, which really should be reserved for the gurgling and knocking noises of piston slap and preignition
The tolerances of this engine compared to past Lexus engine designs is no worse, so I therefore don't agree with you.......unless of course you have a Masters Degree in engine design.
07-27-07, 04:21 PM
#13
Rehash engine noise
The tolerances of this engine compared to past Lexus engine designs is no worse, so I therefore don't agree with you.......unless of course you have a Masters Degree in engine design. [/QUOTE]
I don't agree also!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't think anyone knows what causes this cold engine noise.
Service says Piston slap, fuel injectors, engine this and engine that.
Hogwash no one knows for sure what it is!!!!!!
I have had it since car was new and it is disturbing to me why no one has diagnosed it properly.
Mine only occurs when accelerating and it is a distinct tapping noise.
While I don't think it is fatal I don't think anyone has correctly diagnosed this problem, if in fact it is a problem or just a nuisance.
Nick
[/QUOTE]I don't agree also!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't think anyone knows what causes this cold engine noise.
Service says Piston slap, fuel injectors, engine this and engine that.
Hogwash no one knows for sure what it is!!!!!!
I have had it since car was new and it is disturbing to me why no one has diagnosed it properly.
Mine only occurs when accelerating and it is a distinct tapping noise.
While I don't think it is fatal I don't think anyone has correctly diagnosed this problem, if in fact it is a problem or just a nuisance.
Nick
07-28-07, 12:01 AM
#14
The 2GR-FE 2007 ES350 motor is distinctly noisier (as noted by Consumer Reports) especially at idle, BUT it delivers 29 MPG on the highway and moves the car 0 - 60 MPH in 6.5 seconds.
So while the noise of the 2GR-FE is unLexus-like, so is it's blistering acceleration and economy car like fuel economy.
The 2GR-FE 2007 ES350 motor has a whole new kind of valvetrain that has never been used on a Toyota before (except on the base model Tacoma 4 cyl motor). So the noises the 2GR-FE 2007 ES350 motor makes are new and unfamiliar to long time Toyota owners. And psychologically, humans fear the unfamiliar.
07-28-07, 06:20 AM
#15
I don't think anyone knows what causes this cold engine noise.
Service says Piston slap, fuel injectors, engine this and engine that.
Hogwash no one knows for sure what it is!!!!!!
I have had it since car was new and it is disturbing to me why no one has diagnosed it properly.
Mine only occurs when accelerating and it is a distinct tapping noise.
While I don't think it is fatal I don't think anyone has correctly diagnosed this problem, if in fact it is a problem or just a nuisance.
Nick
[/QUOTE]You are exactly right, no one knows what causes it. Neither does Lexus nor their service departments. Add this to the list with the transmission flare. Lexus has no clue.
As with mine, if you rev it up in park, there is no noise. Put it in drive and start moving and the ES 350 TDI comes alive.