Unintended Acceleration
06-21-07, 11:11 AM
#46
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The only way I could move the mat to 2" forward(for illustration), was to lift it up manually, because it was impossible to make this shift by sliding it, due to the deep dimples on the bottom of the mat!
Impossible? Not at all. Since you don't have the mats anchored, you can't positively locate the placement of your mat...its location is somewhat random.
You'll still notice that even in the wrong position there is NO restriction of the accelerator pedal!
Well, there are infinite wrong positions...you just don't have it in the "Right" wrong position.
Impossible? Not at all. Since you don't have the mats anchored, you can't positively locate the placement of your mat...its location is somewhat random.
You'll still notice that even in the wrong position there is NO restriction of the accelerator pedal!
Well, there are infinite wrong positions...you just don't have it in the "Right" wrong position.
Last edited by ChillBill; 06-28-07 at 11:52 AM.
06-21-07, 10:35 PM
#47
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OK, since I'm really getting tired of all your, what if, what then, whatever, I'm going to retire myself from this thread......you just continue spewing all your nonsensical hypotheses, and I'll continue what I'm doing. 
06-22-07, 06:05 AM
#48
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So I take it that means you were able to reproduce the trapped accelerator pedal on the second try? Easy wasn't it?
06-22-07, 12:09 PM
#49
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Lexus sent a recall notice to those that bought the all weather floor mats, I got one of them. It instructed you to remove the original floor mat before installing the all weather floor mats and to not install the all weather version on top of the original on the driver side.
I had done exactly that (installed all of them on top of the originals).
I had done exactly that (installed all of them on top of the originals).
Unless Lexus redesigned the ES 350 all-weather mats, I believe they have the two openings so that the mats can be secured to the mat anchors...in which case:
--Did some of you folks just not notice these two small openings at all? I mean, they are small but not small enough that they could be easily overlooked...
--If indeed you did see the openings, then why didn't you secure the mat to the mat anchors? Was it because you couldn't get them to attach to the hooks due to you having placed them on top of the carpeted mats...in which case, a little bit of troubleshooting would have revealed the problem? After all, Lexus didn't put those two openings in the all-weather mats just for the hell of it...
--For those of you who placed the all-weather mats on top of the carpeted mats...all I can say to that is, "Why?" Was it because you were too lazy to remove the carpeted mats? Seriously, I cannot think of any other sensible reason why one would prefer to place the all-weather mat on top of the carpeted mat, rather than spend an extra minute to swap them out. Heck, if you think I'm out of line w/ with what I just said...why don't you just place the all-weather mat underneath the carpeted mat during those times when you prefer to use that instead? I'd be willing to bet that you'd probably store the all-weather mats elsewhere when not in use...in which case, why not do the same with the carpeted mats when the all-weathers are in use?
Gee, I don't admit to being the sharpest tool in the shed, but even I have enough common sense to know the proper procedure for installing the ES 350 all-weather mats w/o Lexus having to send out a warning notice detailing the correct procedure for doing so (I won't go into whose interests Lexus was looking out for when they decided to mail out that bulletin)...
Short of a design defect and/or failure of the all-weather mat anchor openings and/or the anchors themselves, it is near-impossible for the mat to slide forward to the point that it wedges against the accelerator pedal. Anything else...well you have only yourself to (partially) blame, due to lack of common sense in installing the mats. I say "common sense" because it doesn't take a rocket scientist--or a set of instructions, I dare say--to figure out how to install the ES 350 factory mats--whether they be all-weather or carpeted.
Last edited by toneman; 06-22-07 at 12:45 PM.
06-22-07, 12:18 PM
#50
chillbill
Out of curiosity, I went out and looked at my car. While I do not have the all weather mats installed this time of year I could still see what happens. All mats aside, when the accelerator pedal is fully depressed, it comes very close to the floor carpeting. I can easily see where the mat could get trapped between the pedal and the floor and hold it in place just as your photo depicts. Whether the probability of that happening is less than 10% or greater than 90% is not the issue. The fact remains it can happen. Thanks for illustrating this so clearly.
Lexus has not panicked over this issue and started a nationwide recall in fear of all of us careening off the road at any moment. I believe they recognize this can happen and they dutifully warned us of that possibility. IMO, to not take their warning seriously is foolish. I cannot understand why anyone would take on that risk when the fix is so easy and at our disposal.
It seems to me that we sure have a lot of members that live at the extreme edges of opinion on what is normal. I have seen posters who fretted over the smallest of issues and immediately felt they deserved a buy back from Lexus, to those who insist there are no problems whatsoever with the ES350, and the tiniest minority of "whiners" just happened to frequent this forum. IMHO, as with most issues, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.
Pete
Out of curiosity, I went out and looked at my car. While I do not have the all weather mats installed this time of year I could still see what happens. All mats aside, when the accelerator pedal is fully depressed, it comes very close to the floor carpeting. I can easily see where the mat could get trapped between the pedal and the floor and hold it in place just as your photo depicts. Whether the probability of that happening is less than 10% or greater than 90% is not the issue. The fact remains it can happen. Thanks for illustrating this so clearly.
Lexus has not panicked over this issue and started a nationwide recall in fear of all of us careening off the road at any moment. I believe they recognize this can happen and they dutifully warned us of that possibility. IMO, to not take their warning seriously is foolish. I cannot understand why anyone would take on that risk when the fix is so easy and at our disposal.
It seems to me that we sure have a lot of members that live at the extreme edges of opinion on what is normal. I have seen posters who fretted over the smallest of issues and immediately felt they deserved a buy back from Lexus, to those who insist there are no problems whatsoever with the ES350, and the tiniest minority of "whiners" just happened to frequent this forum. IMHO, as with most issues, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.
Pete
06-22-07, 01:12 PM
#51
Lexus Champion
And, having done exactly that, did you not wonder why there were two small openings in the all-weather mats--similar to those found on the carpeted mats...and even if you did notice them, wonder why the all-weather mat would not fasten securely to the two floor mat anchors on the floor when you placed the all-weather mat on top of the carpeted mat?
Unless Lexus redesigned the ES 350 all-weather mats, I believe they have the two openings so that the mats can be secured to the mat anchors...in which case:
--Did some of you folks just not notice these two small openings at all? I mean, they are small but not small enough that they could be easily overlooked...
--If indeed you did see the openings, then why didn't you secure the mat to the mat anchors? Was it because you couldn't get them to attach to the hooks due to you having placed them on top of the carpeted mats...in which case, a little bit of troubleshooting would have revealed the problem? After all, Lexus didn't put those two openings in the all-weather mats just for the hell of it...
--For those of you who placed the all-weather mats on top of the carpeted mats...all I can say to that is, "Why?" Was it because you were too lazy to remove the carpeted mats? Seriously, I cannot think of any other sensible reason why one would prefer to place the all-weather mat on top of the carpeted mat, rather than spend an extra minute to swap them out. Heck, if you think I'm out of line w/ with what I just said...why don't you just place the all-weather mat underneath the carpeted mat during those times when you prefer to use that instead? I'd be willing to bet that you'd probably store the all-weather mats elsewhere when not in use...in which case, why not do the same with the carpeted mats when the all-weathers are in use?
Gee, I don't admit to being the sharpest tool in the shed, but even I have enough common sense to know the proper procedure for installing the ES 350 all-weather mats w/o Lexus having to send out a warning notice detailing the correct procedure for doing so (I won't go into whose interests Lexus was looking out for when they decided to mail out that bulletin)...
Short of a design defect and/or failure of the all-weather mat anchor openings and/or the anchors themselves, it is near-impossible for the mat to slide forward to the point that it wedges against the accelerator pedal. Anything else...well you have only yourself to (partially) blame, due to lack of common sense in installing the mats. I say "common sense" because it doesn't take a rocket scientist--or a set of instructions, I dare say--to figure out how to install the ES 350 factory mats--whether they be all-weather or carpeted.
Unless Lexus redesigned the ES 350 all-weather mats, I believe they have the two openings so that the mats can be secured to the mat anchors...in which case:
--Did some of you folks just not notice these two small openings at all? I mean, they are small but not small enough that they could be easily overlooked...
--If indeed you did see the openings, then why didn't you secure the mat to the mat anchors? Was it because you couldn't get them to attach to the hooks due to you having placed them on top of the carpeted mats...in which case, a little bit of troubleshooting would have revealed the problem? After all, Lexus didn't put those two openings in the all-weather mats just for the hell of it...
--For those of you who placed the all-weather mats on top of the carpeted mats...all I can say to that is, "Why?" Was it because you were too lazy to remove the carpeted mats? Seriously, I cannot think of any other sensible reason why one would prefer to place the all-weather mat on top of the carpeted mat, rather than spend an extra minute to swap them out. Heck, if you think I'm out of line w/ with what I just said...why don't you just place the all-weather mat underneath the carpeted mat during those times when you prefer to use that instead? I'd be willing to bet that you'd probably store the all-weather mats elsewhere when not in use...in which case, why not do the same with the carpeted mats when the all-weathers are in use?
Gee, I don't admit to being the sharpest tool in the shed, but even I have enough common sense to know the proper procedure for installing the ES 350 all-weather mats w/o Lexus having to send out a warning notice detailing the correct procedure for doing so (I won't go into whose interests Lexus was looking out for when they decided to mail out that bulletin)...
Short of a design defect and/or failure of the all-weather mat anchor openings and/or the anchors themselves, it is near-impossible for the mat to slide forward to the point that it wedges against the accelerator pedal. Anything else...well you have only yourself to (partially) blame, due to lack of common sense in installing the mats. I say "common sense" because it doesn't take a rocket scientist--or a set of instructions, I dare say--to figure out how to install the ES 350 factory mats--whether they be all-weather or carpeted.
06-22-07, 08:53 PM
#52
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On noticing the holes: here's the problem: if you study the mats, you might notice the holes but...many people never even look at them. They take delivery and the dealership that has already installed the rubber mats right over top of the carpeted ones. When people take them to have them detailed, maybe the high school kid washing the mats doesn't reanchor them. You pretty much have to get on your hands and knees to anchor them and a lot of people just aren't going to do that.
Last edited by ChillBill; 06-28-07 at 11:54 AM.
06-24-07, 06:53 PM
#53
Just following up on Toneman's post...not to add salt or anything... I detailed my wife's car today. Until pulling them for cleaning I'd forgotten that there's a message stamped in to the top of each front a/w mat: "Do not place on top of existing mat." I've never quite understood why anyone would do that in the first place, but the message is certainly there even if you do miss the openings for the hooks.
06-24-07, 07:24 PM
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Let's add some more facts to the record
My wife and I had a horrendous event on I-80, caused by the floor mat of our ES-350. We were using only one floor mat--the all-weather. I had accelerated, and the bottom of the accelerator pedal became lodged under a ridge in the mat. I didn't discover the problem until after I had finally managed to stop the car (and had made a panicked call to Lexus roadside assistance--they were very nice).
Before the incident, my wife had taken the car to a car-wash. Most likely the people at the car-wash failed to secure the mat. In my experience, most car-wash employees are professional, but they are often rushed. I would not want to trust my life to their securing a floor mat.
Before the incident, my wife had taken the car to a car-wash. Most likely the people at the car-wash failed to secure the mat. In my experience, most car-wash employees are professional, but they are often rushed. I would not want to trust my life to their securing a floor mat.
06-25-07, 08:30 AM
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My wife and I had a horrendous event on I-80, caused by the floor mat of our ES-350. We were using only one floor mat--the all-weather. I had accelerated, and the bottom of the accelerator pedal became lodged under a ridge in the mat. I didn't discover the problem until after I had finally managed to stop the car (and had made a panicked call to Lexus roadside assistance--they were very nice).
Before the incident, my wife had taken the car to a car-wash. Most likely the people at the car-wash failed to secure the mat. In my experience, most car-wash employees are professional, but they are often rushed. I would not want to trust my life to their securing a floor mat.
Before the incident, my wife had taken the car to a car-wash. Most likely the people at the car-wash failed to secure the mat. In my experience, most car-wash employees are professional, but they are often rushed. I would not want to trust my life to their securing a floor mat.
06-25-07, 12:11 PM
#56
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My wife and I had a horrendous event on I-80, caused by the floor mat of our ES-350. We were using only one floor mat--the all-weather. I had accelerated, and the bottom of the accelerator pedal became lodged under a ridge in the mat. I didn't discover the problem until after I had finally managed to stop the car (and had made a panicked call to Lexus roadside assistance--they were very nice).
Before the incident, my wife had taken the car to a car-wash. Most likely the people at the car-wash failed to secure the mat. In my experience, most car-wash employees are professional, but they are often rushed. I would not want to trust my life to their securing a floor mat.
Before the incident, my wife had taken the car to a car-wash. Most likely the people at the car-wash failed to secure the mat. In my experience, most car-wash employees are professional, but they are often rushed. I would not want to trust my life to their securing a floor mat.
To be fair to richpat and to others who may have experienced the exact same issue (pedal sticking due to an unstacked mat sliding forward)--Lexus could (and, should) look into redesigining the mat so that it doesn't slide forward; not all vehicles offer mat anchors, yet we don't hear (too much) about similar incidents w/ other vehicle makes/models.
I will also concede that for some other folks, they may have had little to no control over the situation if indeed the all-weathers were placed on top of the carpeted mats at the dealership prior to delivery, so it would be understandable if they weren't previously aware of the ramifications of placing one mat on top of another.
06-26-07, 05:01 AM
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Given the above, one should note that the incident occurred not due to a design defect w/ the all-weather mat, but due to the mat not being properly/correctly secured to the mat anchors--IOW, an event not covered by the all-weather mat TSIB (placing one mat on top of the other).
To be fair to richpat and to others who may have experienced the exact same issue (pedal sticking due to an unstacked mat sliding forward)--Lexus could (and, should) look into redesigining the mat so that it doesn't slide forward; not all vehicles offer mat anchors, yet we don't hear (too much) about similar incidents w/ other vehicle makes/models.
I will also concede that for some other folks, they may have had little to no control over the situation if indeed the all-weathers were placed on top of the carpeted mats at the dealership prior to delivery, so it would be understandable if they weren't previously aware of the ramifications of placing one mat on top of another.
To be fair to richpat and to others who may have experienced the exact same issue (pedal sticking due to an unstacked mat sliding forward)--Lexus could (and, should) look into redesigining the mat so that it doesn't slide forward; not all vehicles offer mat anchors, yet we don't hear (too much) about similar incidents w/ other vehicle makes/models.
I will also concede that for some other folks, they may have had little to no control over the situation if indeed the all-weathers were placed on top of the carpeted mats at the dealership prior to delivery, so it would be understandable if they weren't previously aware of the ramifications of placing one mat on top of another.
Last edited by ChillBill; 06-28-07 at 11:55 AM.
06-26-07, 07:45 AM
#58
I don't know...I still see this the other way. When asked why you can't put all weather mats over carpeted mats, my question in return is, "Why would you want to do so?" It just seems like a very clumsy and awkward installation under the best of circumstances...including changing the angle at which your right foot approaches the accelerator and brake pedals. When you put the a/w mats on top of the carpeted ones, doesn't your eye immediately notice that they seem really tall? Just curious...not trying to offend or add heat to the discussion.
The design includes openings for the hooks and pretty clear verbiage right on the face of the mat...I'm not sure how much further Lexus (or any manufacturer...I've had such mats on GM, Acura, Audi, as well as my wife's ES and my RX)...needs to go beyond that. At the same time, my Audi mats came with a disclaimer note stapled right to the cardboard which stated the installation warning. On my wife's ES, the dealership parts guy mentioned, "You know to remove the carpeted mats first, right?" I'll agree that maybe some more reinforcement is in order to ensure proper installation, but I still can't get past the idea that correct installation is pretty logical.
The design includes openings for the hooks and pretty clear verbiage right on the face of the mat...I'm not sure how much further Lexus (or any manufacturer...I've had such mats on GM, Acura, Audi, as well as my wife's ES and my RX)...needs to go beyond that. At the same time, my Audi mats came with a disclaimer note stapled right to the cardboard which stated the installation warning. On my wife's ES, the dealership parts guy mentioned, "You know to remove the carpeted mats first, right?" I'll agree that maybe some more reinforcement is in order to ensure proper installation, but I still can't get past the idea that correct installation is pretty logical.
06-26-07, 11:01 AM
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Besides, why wouldn't you just design the floor mats to be placed on top of the carpeted ones if the owner chose to do so? If you asked people why you can't put the rubber floor mats over the carpeted ones, how many people would respond "because it's potentially dangerous"? And if they did say that, then you have dangerous floor mats?...what the heck?
06-27-07, 12:56 PM
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I know what you're saying...piling floor mats is not usually aesthetically pleasing. I guess the point I was making was with regard to safety. If that engineer worked for me, I'd ask that they make sure this thing couldn't get caught in the pedal, hooked or not. It's an unnecessary hazard. Some people can't see the hooks, some don't know what they're for, some can't even read the language. There are things that can't be errorproofed but this is one that can be. When you're designing with safety in mind, you have to design for users that may not do the right thing.