dgrady42

All,

I noticed a lot of talk about the tire noise and tire pressure. I used to own a tire business so I am more than familiar with these issues. Here is some info you can use.

1. Rotating tires can cause tire noise to increase IF you don't rotate them often enough. Tire wear is directly related to the direction the tire is rotating while driving. If the rotation direction changes (if you take too long between rotations) noise can increase.

2. Proper tire inflation is directly relevent to tire wear and fuel economy. If you overinflate tires, they wear in the center and if you under inflate them, the edges wear. The same is true with fuel economy. Underinflated tires can decrease economy by as much as 10%.

3. Try nitrogen inflation in your tires. I sold this as an option at my tire business. Because compressed air contains moisture it is succeptable to presure changes with tenperature changes. Nitrogen does not change pressure with the temperature. It also runs cooler than compressed air and COMPLETELY non flamable. Customers that tried this on one vehicle usually came back and had other cars done as well. You can expect to see about a 10% increase in economy and about 20% in tire life. The cost for passenger cars in my area is about $5.00 per tire and we gave free lifetime refills. If you have any questions on this last issue, feel free to write.

OAKPLANK

One question on the nitrogen. Does it create any problems with the special tire valves used to automatically monitor the tire pressure and does the dealer need to reset the tire monitoring system ?
Okay, that was two questions. But, it was asked in one sentence.
oakplank

wishihad1

no problem, just replace the air nitrogen.

twister

Good question about tire pressure sensors and nitrogen. In my area (Central Jersey) only a few places offer nitrogen (mostly wholesale clubs) and when they inflate your tires, a green cap is being put on. I read that a few of the Lexus dealerships put nitrogen into hybrid GS450h tires, but its probably to add to a "cool factor". I'm currently have runflat tires, anybody knows if nitrogen can go in there?

dreyfus

Okay, so we have two threads here with the same post.

Back to your quote, only if you've found a way to suspend the laws of physics.

pV=nRT

p = pressure
v = volume
n = moles of gas
R = the gas constant
T = temperature

Nitrogen reacts to temperature exactly the same as regular air.

static

...and, regular air is 78% nitrogen.

wishihad1

partially true. it does not react as erratically as air, stays more stabile. try a search on the web.

dgrady42

In answer to the replies,

Nitrogen will not hurt you sensors, in fact it will help them because they are made from alluminum. Compressed air has oxygen will will cause an "oxide" to build up on the sensor casuing corrosion.

As for the doubters, perhaps you can do research on the web or perform teh following test.
1. Check your air pressure.
2. Drive your car for about 1/2 hour to heat up the tires.
3. Check your air pressure again. You will notice a substantial increase in the pressure as the temperature of the tire increases.

I would be interested to know if any of you have had to adjust your air pressure when the temperature drops considerably so your sensors didn't tell you you had a low tire.
Compressed air contains oil and moisture. In the process of generating the nitrogen both of these elements are removed hense the nitrogen is more stable in your tires.
I would also like to say that NASCAR and all of the other major races fill thier tires with nitrogen as do air planes. They don't go through this just for the fun of it.

dreyfus

This is not true. All aluminum that's been exposed to the air for more than a day has a microscopic oxide coating. However, this oxide does not eat through the aluminum as the oxide on iron does. In fact, it forms a protective coat that prevents further oxidation. This is why aluminum is used outside and in moist environments - it does't rust like iron or steel.

The aluminium valve stems in our cars have this protective oxide on them already and will not benefit from nitrogen nor be damaged by moist air.

Yes, absolutely. This is because all gasses expand with increased temperature, nitrogen included.

This is generally true, depending on the grade of nitrogen you purchase. This isn't a benefit of nitrogen per se, anyone can get oil and water-free air with the appropriate filters. The laboratories at my workplace use compressed nitrogen and compressed air and both are oil and water free.

I'm not saying don't use nitrogen in your tires. But there is so much bovine scatology out there on this topic that I think it's important not to add to the bogus claims.

dgrady42

I would ask first and foremost, how many tires have you removed from rims? On aluminum wheels there is an oxidation that occurs. As I stated at the very beginning of my post, I used to own a tire business. I have seen this occurrance hundreds of times. That white powder on wheels that have started to corrode is aluminum oxide.

Second, to say they have a "protective oxide" is an oxymoron. Some wheels have a protective coating but it is not oxide, it is a clear coat and in New England this clear coat eventually cracks or peels.

Third, what is your expertise with this? I invested about $5,000.00 in a nitrogen generator to make nitrogen. I had multiple customers who checked their gas mileage religiously purchase the nitrogen for 20 per car and test mileage to veryify whether or not it works and more often than not, they came back with another vehicle.

If you don't believe it works, thats fine, but unless you are qualified to make that statement, don't call it Bovine Scatology.

psp

Hi ya all,

I don't know too much about all this but I want to stick in my 2 cents.

Two things I know are that the compressed air at your local gas station or tire center is filthy; containing water and oil particles. Water is there because of the relative humidity. the dirt and oil because of the lack of PM on the system (my opinion only). It's not laboratory grade compressed air. Even lab grade compressed air is variable; the purer it is the more expensive it is to generate. I also know that water, dirt, and grease are an enemy of your tire and wheel's inner surfaces. Cleaner is better. So compressed nitrogen from a nitrogen generator can be (and usually is cleaner). That in itself is a good thing. I read an article on the web that the retail giant Costco sells nitrogen for your tires that is about 93%, higher than atmospheric air but not pure.

The other thing that I know is that they charge $5.00 to $7.50 per tire. Depending on ROI and the number of tires they do, this can be a 1000% to 3000% mark-up on the part of the retailer. I think that dgrady42 con confirm this and also tell us what % nitrogen he was using. I would not be surprised if the good ole boys at NASCAR were using something more pure but who knows?

There is also someone who is marketing "ultra air" that is cleaner and drier than plain old compressed air.

static

There may well be benifits using nitrogen, but...

I've never had a tire fail from the inside.

I've never had problems keeping tires at the proper pressure, even the really old ones on my jeep.

How do you fill them with pure nitrogen (or anything else) when they already contain a volume of air when you start filling, do you put tubes in them or displace the air somehow?

dgrady42

Answer to both quesitons.

I used a nitrogen generator and therefore made my own nitrogen. The profit was 100% after I sold $5000.00 worth of nitrogen to pay for the price of the generator.

I tested my tank monthly to ensure that it was at least 98% N2.If it fell below this, I had to purchase new filters.

When I filled a tire with nitrogen, I would empty the air totally, fill it with n2 empty it again, fill it and then perform the same act a 3rd and final time. This was tested avoer and over again and you would end up with 95% or better in the tire.

As for the tire failing from the inside. If you have proper tire pressure (air or nitrogen) this won't happen. If it is low on pressure the temperature would increase and cause the tire to fail from the inside. (Think ford explorer).

The nitrogen will run cooler and keep a more consistent pressure and therefore give you better tire life and fule economy. I used it on my F150 that I used for deliveries and got 95000 miles out of the OE tire. Most customers would replace the same tire at about 50 to 60k.

I am not trying to sell anything here, just give you some advice on saving money on tires and gas. Try it if you like. If not that is your choice as well. All I know is that it worked as advertised for me.

dreyfus

None. I haven't a clue what that powder is.

We were talking specifically about aluminum valves. I said aluminum forms a protective oxide and doesn't corrode any more or less in in a nitrogen environment, as you claimed. It's simple chemisty, not an oxymoron. All aluminum quickly forms an aluminum oxide protective layer that prevents further oxidation, unlike iron-containing metals. From Wikipedia: Aluminium oxide is responsible for metallic aluminium's resistance to weathering. Metallic aluminium is very reactive with atmospheric oxygen, and a thin passivation layer of alumina quickly forms on any exposed aluminium surface. This layer protects the metal from further oxidation.

I am a trained chemist and forensic metallurgist who has had ten years working with failure analysis of metal medical products. My reports have been used as evidence in large dollar medical malpractice suits. With all due respect to your $5,000 and your customer's satisfaction, I believe I'm qualified.

As I clearly said in my last post, I'm not discounting the benefits of using nitrogen in your tires. I am very much discounting the outrageous claims and misinformation put forth by some. Claims that nitrogen doesn't corrode aluminum valves like air does or doesn't heat up and expand as every other gas does are simply and scientifically wrong. If nitrogen is beneficial then it should be sold on it's merits, not bovine scatology like the above.

toneman

Bottom line--as I stated in the other nitrogen post, is that whatever benefits/advantages--perceived or realized--that nitrogen offers over "regular" compressed air is definitely not worth paying $5 per tire.

I might get flamed for making the following comment, but I will offer this--only people who have money to burn and/or are too lazy to check the tire pressure on a regular basis or perhaps maybe are too clueless to know how to inflate their tires would be swayed enough by nitrogen's benefits to consider having their tires inflated w/ it. If you want to argue as to why one would want to gamble w/ their safety by not considering nitrogen...well then please explain how millions and millions of responsible vehicle owners have been managing w/o it for all these years?

It's easy to come up with an argument that people who have replaced the air in their tires w/ nitrogen have realized improved fuel economy; what's to say that they might have previously had poor fuel economy due to not having regularly checked the tire pressure and/or for other tire/wheel related conditions? IOW--heck, if I hardly ever checked the tire pressure of my "air"-filled tires all these years...then decide to one day switch over to nitrogen; given the "advantages" of nitrogen-filled tires...well duh!--of course I'll probably see an increase of fuel economy...but that could very well be more a function of my not having checked my tire pressure all this time, more than the nitrogen not leaking out of my tires as quickly as regular air would. And as far as your claim that you got 95K miles out of your OEM tire--well one can argue tire wear is not solely a function of tire pressure; I could have properly-inflated tires and could still theoretically wear them out much sooner than their rated wear-specs w/o having to go far out of my way in order to do so.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't consider putting nitrogen in my tires...just that I wouldn't go out of my way to actually do so...let alone pay extra for it. I have no problem having to (re)inflate my tires every once in a while, if need be...nor have my tires worn out abnormally or prematurely due to tire pressure issues...so why should I consider paying $20 or so just to have nitrogen in my tires?

I guess it's no big deal for you to argue as to the benefits of nitrogen-filled tires when you have a vested stake in the matter--namely, when you're charging people at your tire business for wanting to do so.

I'll also offer this--does the Ferrari Enzo come w/ nitrogen-filled tires straight from the factory? If not, then wouldn't it make sense for Ferrari to offer it as standard, given nitrogen's benefits...especially when applied to an exotic sports car like the Enzo?