acarapella

Hey all,

So it has come up a few times on this form recently that using Valvoline MaxLife ATF (Castrol is good, too) has improved the behavior of transmissions. I have always thought (and read on oil forms) that T-IV right from Toyota was best for a transmission that one wants to go to 300,000 miles.... I have used MaxLife in a 5 speed Toyota automatic (Solara 3.3) many (5?) drain/fills after weird behavior around 100,000. At 176,000 it was the worst and had a massive flair almost ever time I got off the freeway after several miles on; it would happen from 2nd into 3rd gear and only the first shift after exiting the freeway. Got rid of that car. Wish I didn't - should have done the struts, tranny, and adjusted the valves. Oh and knock sensors. Oh and door hinges. that's another story.

My 2002 ES300 has 106,000 and the tranny is strong. I have, in evaluating the car, felt a perfect shift at 6,000RPM near 100mph. that said, I don't like its "normal" driving behavior. It shifts "slow" like a person that is intentionally holding a gear in a manual transmission. After its slow shift it feels like it takes a fraction of a second to reapply throttle, which makes for less than seamless acceleration. Its strong and healthy, I just don't like its behavior. Of any of our 3 automatics, I like the TH350 the best - its a 1972 in my '50 chevy. Its shifts a crisp but almost undetectably smooth. I like my shifts undetectable and almost on the side of early. My ES is noticeable but not harsh, and on the side of late.

That said, I'd love to hear the advantages, disadvantages, and "data" behind weather or not MaxLife is safe for, preserves, or damages Toyota transmissions, especially 5 speed automatics. I would like more than "I did it, and its fine" even though I may not understand the chemistry of it all, it would be good to know. If someone happens to have in-depth technical knowledge, it would be cool to better understand ATF as a whole.



Thanks

Drew

LeX2K

Having used MaxLife I am underwhelmed by it. I've had much better results with Royal Purple ATF and Amsoil.

Oro

I would agree after years of playing around with fluids that a "T-IV type" fluid is the best for performance and longevity. There are some readily available aftermarket fluids that will work just as well, and the Toyota (re-)branded bottle is not strictly necessary. The main differences between T-IV and newer fluids (WS for Toyota and Dexron VI for GM) is the thickness and the amount of additive friction modifiers. The newer generation is formulated about 6.2cSt vs. ~7.2cSt for the prior generation T-IV and Dexron III. T-IV is based on DexIII, has very similar characteristics, and many newer fluids will cover both specs. You could easily run the same fluid in your T-IV spec'd Lexus and your TH350. Maxlife is a DexVI type fluid with a thinner viscosity and a different friction modification profile than the U150e transmission was designed around.

From what I can gather, the fluid changes across manufacturers was driven primarily by fuel efficiency concerns, but also to accomodate the widespread adoption of PWM (pulse-width modulation) control of torque converter clutches. This placed more stress on the clutches and fluid and friction material changes were necessary. Newer fluids (WS/DexVI) are slipperier and thinner than old ones (T-IV/DexIII). While running the newer fluid won't kill the transmission from what I can find, it won't optimize it's performance and wear.

A lot of what you describe is how the U150e operates; it has some quirks in it's programming and that's commanded by the PCU, not something inherently or mechanically wrong in the unit itself. The slipping/flaring on your Solara is not normal (that should have been the same U150e transmission in a 3.3 Solora I think). I don't know if you had it since new, but that could have been from running hot previously and getting some varnish in the valve bodies, or a number of reasons. I would have run some SeaFoam or B12 through it, flushed it, and added T-IV-type fluid to see how it affected it.

I have found from experience the harsh shifting in the U150e is exacerbated with current gen fluids and I would transition away from MaxLife (which is what I am doing in mine, now, after using it a few years).

acarapella

Thank you both
Lexus2000 Sadly I think I've been underwhelmed by every automatic I have had except the 7 speed in an infinity I leased whilst living in SoFla and the 2 BMW E46 that I bought to fix up and sell.... their crisp but undetectable upshifts and rev-matching downshifts were great. I am NOT a sporty car kind of guy, but I am mechanically **** and those just felt right. I cannot drive stick daily because of a hip issue I am putting off dealing with until I am at least out of my 30's - it barely hurts ever but the seating position to work the clutch makes for problems.

Oro this is fantastic info. what I am hearing from you (or what I've taken from what you've said) is that I should probably stick with T-IV or the original manufacture's bottle of it (if I knew where to get that). I think my Toyota dealer charges me $5/qt but i'd be total into buying by the gallon for like $11 which is what I pay for the old school stuff that goes in my TH350. We might have to talk again when I go that car. I suction it out the dipstick tube and replace the exact amount I remover like every 1,000 miles cause the car gets driven hard. Rebuilds are cheap (that's the chevy I mean)


As for my ES... I have heard the best way to do it is to do like 4 drain and fills over like a week. I have never "flushed" a trans but always imagined using a full bottle of ATF with the return hose from the radiator in it and the other hose in an empty bottle. I would keep an eye on it and then switch bottles. Repeat until I am getting RED fluid from the "into radiator house" this is of course assuming that the return hose would actually "suck."

The Solara being gone breaks my heart. It was my wifes and I thought I got out of it well and didn't regret it till I sold the late model car I ditched it for and went BACKWARDS 4 years and 0.3 liters. Oh and 8 MPG average. That 3mZ did like 30.1 average over 4 months once!

Seafoam? like the regular formula, or their tranny stuff? their tranny stuff says it can stay in there, but I would want that out of there once its done its job. This brings me back to my flush comments/questions above lol

thank you - I am learning a lot and appreciate it

LeX2K

I don't find anything special about Mobil 3309, it's okay that's about it. I recently put some Amsoil into a 2011 RAV4 (don't know the transmission model) I would consider the difference dramatic. The fluid had never been changed (Toyota doesn't recommend you ever change the fluid).

In my 2000 ES I run Royal Purple ATF it shifts much better versus 3309 I will never go back to the factory fluid. Next I may try the Amsoil.

acarapella

just off of curiosity, how did you do the Rav? Heard a scan tool is needed never understood that though as you can measure what comes out and put that back in. How did you get it ALLL out? Same with your ES. I assume you wouldn’t want to mix...

acarapella

Also, the 3309.... is that chemically identical to T-IV

LeX2K

The RAV was actually a 2009 (2011 is probably the same), thankfully it has a transmission dipstick. Mobil 3309 IS Toyota type T-iV they are identical. On the RAV I did a drain and fill then the same a few days later. On my ES I pull one of the cooler lines and start the engine, doesn't get all the fluid out but more than pulling the drain plug.

acarapella

Oro

For all intents and purposes, 3309 = TIV. Mobil used to be the major OE supplier to Toyota and they were the same. In the US, that may be true still as Toyota uses different suppliers across the world, I think currently Mobil, Idemetsu, and Ravenol. You won't 3309 on shelves because Mobil just doesn't have that much retail presence in transmission fluids and you only find it really mail order from specialty placs, like Summit Racing, etc. $5/bottle for T-IV from a dealer is a fair deal and fine way to go. I use the Castrol Transmax HM now for the HM additives and it's slightly thicker, which the U150e seems to like (it is 8.0cSt vs the DexIII/TIV convention of 7.2cSt). If I had some cheap TIV next time, I would not hesitate to use it, don't let me imply it's inferior or this is "night and day" better.

As an initial maintenance on a used car (I buy like you), I like a full swap as it gets out the old fluid entirely, gets it in one go/saves time, and takes 10/11 qts vs 16 qts to do four flushes to get close, but still not equal to, the same volume of clean fluid in the system. There's plenty of internet hoopla that it can cause damage; that's bunkum so just ignore it. Here's the general procedure for about any car (Camry later model example):

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/10...lush-pics.html

Don't forget to do your PS system when you do the AT fluid maintenance regularly. The PS pump on these is fairly annoying to r&r.

I hear you on "sealed" transmission. I've learned that as long as there is a fill hole I can judge "full" with, I can deal with it, though. I also sometimes use the siphon/pump & measure/replace method - BUT, you need to know there was no loss and have made sure it was filled correctly at some point. It is worth repeating that the full reading has to be made with the car running after shifting. I find checking the u150e dificult and the only way I've found to get a reliable dipstick reading is starting it cold, shifting through the gears, then reading it off the cold mark. Any other method reads too high (e.g., you are actually too low on fluid) because of sump splash in the tube. Your solara could have been a little low, too, and created that condition. Was it a V6 (I think you said it was, a 3.3)? Because it should not be that much lower in average MPG vs. the ES in head-to head usage with the same powertrain (3mzfe + U150e). See if there is a bad front bearing, stuck pads (check the caliper pins), etc.

I have used both regular seafoam and the transtune "flavor." I don't think there's a difference other than labeling and tint; use whichever. I also agree, I'd add it, run it, and then flush or dilute it with drain/fills. I have had success once with this (only time I tried it in an AT) on a slightly problematic shifting GM 4L30E. Also successfuly uses in PS systems and it's a miracle for carburetors that have sat too long without running and varnished the jets.

acarapella

Great info thanks.


Always have checked by transmission warm... just went out in 20f weather and checked cold as stated above... literally started the car, 5 seconds later shifted through each gear twice, then back to park and checked and was mortified to see NOTHING on the dipstick! Added the tiny bit (0.15-0.2qt???) of T-IV that I had on the shelf and it got it to the first 1/4" of the dipstick! I will be grabbing some T-IV this morning and adding, unless when I check it warm, its 3/4"-1" past the full/hot

Scary crap! If i remember, at 104,500 when I did the drain/fill, the old fluid was right at the notch for warm, and i put in what I took out, and made sure put it back to the notch. Hopefully its not actually low, and if it is, nothing's damaged. $800 (low mile trans R&R in the DRIVEWAY) is a lot of "tuition" to learn that their dipsticks cant be trusted! Especially on my umpteenth Toyota. I'm only at 106,700 so hoping praying all is well but now I have no idea what to go by. a quart over full is just as bad isn't it?

acarapella

LeX2K

Canadian Tire (the worlds greatest store) used to sell 3309 it was inexpensive too. They don't have it anymore likely due to no demand.
Fuel economy on my car is good on the highway, city to be honest it sucks. Good thing you found out about the low fluid and topped it off.

acarapella

Yea mine can average 33-35 if under 60mph on the highway. have yet to have a complete tank do better than 23.5. Had dozens of tanks in a row at 30.1 in the 3.3 but I'm ok with it.

As for the level... who knows? now, when hot, its like 3/4" past the full hot notch... wish there was a better way to check.

BTW even though my fluid is red and smells new, I want to do a complete flush in the spring. $5/qt if i get a case, right from Toyota.

Thanks again all

If anyone has a Honda Pilot, Odyssey, or Ridgline and can speak to tranny fluid on that trans (like if Castrol HM or Maxlife could prolong the inevitable) please PM me =)

acarapella