Which is cheaper to maintain? an ES 330 vs newer Camry with 100K miles
12-29-16, 11:57 AM
#1
Driver
Thread Starter
Which is cheaper to maintain? an ES 330 vs newer Camry with 100K miles
I leased a 2010 ES350 for 2 years and really loved the car.
I would like to buy a 350 now, but it is out of my budget,
so I am looking at an ES 330 or a 2008-2010 Camry with 100k miles.
Either car which would both cost me about $10k in the San Francisco area.
If both cars had about 100k miles on them and assume that the timing belt had already been changed on the ES
which car would be cheaper to maintain for the next 50,000 miles which how long I plan to own it.
What can you expect to replace or repair on an ES330 with 100k miles on it?
My fear is that even with buying a well maintained car with maintenance records,
that I could still end up spending a huge amount of money on repairs for the ES?
On average, how much more expensive are Lexus parts than Camry parts? Is it 50% more?
What parts does an ES have to use that are different from a Camry?
I am assuming everything except the drive train would be lexus parts?
I would like to buy a 350 now, but it is out of my budget,
so I am looking at an ES 330 or a 2008-2010 Camry with 100k miles.
Either car which would both cost me about $10k in the San Francisco area.
If both cars had about 100k miles on them and assume that the timing belt had already been changed on the ES
which car would be cheaper to maintain for the next 50,000 miles which how long I plan to own it.
What can you expect to replace or repair on an ES330 with 100k miles on it?
My fear is that even with buying a well maintained car with maintenance records,
that I could still end up spending a huge amount of money on repairs for the ES?
On average, how much more expensive are Lexus parts than Camry parts? Is it 50% more?
What parts does an ES have to use that are different from a Camry?
I am assuming everything except the drive train would be lexus parts?
12-30-16, 12:29 PM
#2
Will the 08-10 Camry be a 4cyl or 6 cyl?
The ES330 drivetrain is the same as the 04-06 Camry SE V6 so the parts will be the same. You'll pay more for the "Lexus part" if you buy it from the Lexus dealer. I usually buy what I need from the Toyota dealer. Obviously difference will be the interior and exterior body panels. In this case, the ES parts may end up being more expensive.
The ES330 drivetrain is the same as the 04-06 Camry SE V6 so the parts will be the same. You'll pay more for the "Lexus part" if you buy it from the Lexus dealer. I usually buy what I need from the Toyota dealer. Obviously difference will be the interior and exterior body panels. In this case, the ES parts may end up being more expensive.
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jgcec (12-31-16)
12-30-16, 06:45 PM
#3
Unless you plan to run to the dealership for every maintenance item instead of doing some yourself or using an independent Toyota/Japanese shop, maintenance costs are going to be pretty much the same for several years for a 2005 ES330 w/100k vs. a 2009 Camry V6 w/100k. The Camry is going to have a chain (2007 up) so if you are keeping long term, the t-belt hassle is gone.
The major items that wear:
a) do so at the same rate,
b) have roughly the same aftermarket (non-dealer) price, and
c) the same labor to r&r.
You might further refine your cost analysis by looking at resale in x years, but the cost of maintenance will be a non-factor. Insurance and mileage should be pretty similar, too. Another thing to consider is build quality. I hear the US made Camries do not come near the Japanese-built Lexus in build quality. However, could I find a 2010 Camry with a really nice leather interior and soothing cabin, I'd much rather have that year's exterior styling over the 4ES (02+ 300/330).
Another thought is to look at an 05-08 Avalon. These are also chain and not belt, btw. Might be in your price range and will be more Lexus-like than the Camry. The 05 and up are not as badly styled as the prior years IMO, and the interiors on the Limited were nice and have become even better over time.
The major items that wear:
a) do so at the same rate,
b) have roughly the same aftermarket (non-dealer) price, and
c) the same labor to r&r.
You might further refine your cost analysis by looking at resale in x years, but the cost of maintenance will be a non-factor. Insurance and mileage should be pretty similar, too. Another thing to consider is build quality. I hear the US made Camries do not come near the Japanese-built Lexus in build quality. However, could I find a 2010 Camry with a really nice leather interior and soothing cabin, I'd much rather have that year's exterior styling over the 4ES (02+ 300/330).
Another thought is to look at an 05-08 Avalon. These are also chain and not belt, btw. Might be in your price range and will be more Lexus-like than the Camry. The 05 and up are not as badly styled as the prior years IMO, and the interiors on the Limited were nice and have become even better over time.
Last edited by Oro; 12-30-16 at 06:58 PM.
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jgcec (12-31-16)
12-31-16, 09:46 AM
#4
Driver
Thread Starter
I have been thinking of just getting a 4 cylinder, for better gas mileage,
but the V6 has gets 26 mpg vs 28 for the 4, so they are almost the same.
Is there any reliability difference?
but the V6 has gets 26 mpg vs 28 for the 4, so they are almost the same.
Is there any reliability difference?
12-31-16, 10:17 AM
#5
Driver
Thread Starter
This really gives me a new perspective on the ES300/330.
I test drove one the other day at a Lexus dealer with 110k miles for $10,000
and it was very nice in terms of seat comfort and quiet ride.
The ride was a little floaty though.
I wonder if the suspension is wearing out, or if that is just how the 300/330 series is?
I know that it is best to get all maintenance records from the owner.
Of almost equal value is if the car was maintained at Lexus and you can look up the repairs on lexus.com and the Carfax.
Then you should also have a mechanic look at it.
Would you buy a Lexus without maintenance records if it drove really well and a mechanic looked at it
and couldn't find any problems?
The one thing that REALLY bothers me is how cheap the Camry interior is in the 2007-2011
and it didn't really improve much in the 2012+ series.
I leased a 2013 Ford Fusion plugin the last 3 years and the fit and finish interior quality
is almost up to Lexus quality. The leather seats though were not up to Lexus standards, but better than Camry.
I have been considering a 2009 Camry Hybrid with leather interior with 48k miles for $12,000 and it is very tempting.
The only concern is replacing the hybrid battery though and the gas mileage is only about 30, so those are some negatives.
I test drove one the other day at a Lexus dealer with 110k miles for $10,000
and it was very nice in terms of seat comfort and quiet ride.
The ride was a little floaty though.
I wonder if the suspension is wearing out, or if that is just how the 300/330 series is?
I know that it is best to get all maintenance records from the owner.
Of almost equal value is if the car was maintained at Lexus and you can look up the repairs on lexus.com and the Carfax.
Then you should also have a mechanic look at it.
Would you buy a Lexus without maintenance records if it drove really well and a mechanic looked at it
and couldn't find any problems?
Another thing to consider is build quality. I hear the US made Camry's do not come near the Japanese-built Lexus in build quality. However, could I find a 2010 Camry with a really nice leather interior and soothing cabin, I'd much rather have that year's exterior styling over the 4ES (02+ 300/330).
.
.
and it didn't really improve much in the 2012+ series.
I leased a 2013 Ford Fusion plugin the last 3 years and the fit and finish interior quality
is almost up to Lexus quality. The leather seats though were not up to Lexus standards, but better than Camry.
I have been considering a 2009 Camry Hybrid with leather interior with 48k miles for $12,000 and it is very tempting.
The only concern is replacing the hybrid battery though and the gas mileage is only about 30, so those are some negatives.
12-31-16, 10:22 AM
#6
Driver
Thread Starter
Another thought is to look at an 05-08 Avalon. These are also chain and not belt, btw. Might be in your price range and will be more Lexus-like than the Camry. The 05 and up are not as badly styled as the prior years IMO, and the interiors on the Limited were nice and have become even better over time.
What about Avalon before 2005?
I would assume the same or better build quality?
I looked and they are very hard to find,
but they were a little smaller (my wife doesn't want a car too big for parking reasons).
12-31-16, 11:51 AM
#7
same cost to maintain. just take your Lexus to the Toyota dealer for service. same parts, same techs, same service, half the price. the Lexus will hold its resale value better - the Toyota will depreciate faster. also - the Lexus should be quieter and give you more pride of ownership - if that's important to you. get the Lexus IMO.
good luck.
good luck.
Last edited by Gekko; 12-31-16 at 11:54 AM.
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jgcec (12-31-16)
Trending Topics
12-31-16, 11:56 AM
#8
Avalon is an old man's/old lady's car IMO. don't buy one unless you're over 65.
12-31-16, 03:05 PM
#9
$10k for a 330 seems awfully high to me. They are over 10 years old now, and I have seen people report here buying super clean ones with modest mileage recently for like $5 to $6k I think (private party prices). I like to use Edmunds.com for prices, and they can show you pp and dealer prices for cars detailed down to the options, color, and location. I would have NO problem buying a used lexus from a private party with incomplete records if it looks/checks out ok.
The rear springs in the 4ES 300/330 are soft in my (and many others) opinion and do wear out. I put camry rear springs in ours and slightly stiffer KYB shocks and like it better.
For a Toyota 4 vs 6, there's really no difference in the longevity/reliability. There was a serious head bolt design problem with some earlier Toyota 4s, but that was in the 2000-2002 range and newer ones are not known to have any real issues AFAIK. My analysis is the same as yours; I don't find the mileage difference to really be that big so I prefer a 6 for the better qualities. As to hybrids, my understanding is the battery pack life is really very, very good and replacement prices have really come down over time. I wouldn't worry about that issue much, but you can ask at toyotanation.com to verify that or another source.
Avalon: I think the early ones are indeed old folks cars. The honestly remind me of Buicks. But the newer ones get the styling back in line with the general corporate look and are OK. I don't think quality will be different than a Camry as both are built in the G-town, KY plant. They started making (non-hybrid) ES's there this past model year, so a pre-'16 ES will be Japanese built. RX's have been built in Canada a while. All else is in Japan. A newer avalon might actually be easier to drive than a 4ES because of visibility. The limits of the 4ES 300/330 are in my opinion hard to gauge because of the slope of the exterior. I say might be as I have not driven a 2005+ Avalon, but I find the 4ES poor in the regard.
Fusion is interesting as you say, and one of the few cars I would consider replacing the ES with when it comes time (most likely will be another ES or maybe LS). The problem is the 2002 ES300 we have won't die. It looks good and drives great still at 270k miles. In fact, I was in SF early this month and tried to rent one at Hertz. Unfortunately I got there late in the day and they were all gone, so I was stuck with a Chevy. Which actually was not bad, really (Malibu LT). Anyway, if you are in SF and have a lot of bad traffic, test drive your cars in the traffic you have to live with. Some people find the shifting on the 4ES very annoying in extended stop/go traffic. I have heard similar complaints on newer generation Camries and other Toyotas, too. Another thing to know, if you end up with a later chain-equipped 3.5L V6, is that early years of these had a design flaw in that part of the oil routing to the OCVs (control the variable valve timing) was a u-shaped rubber hose that sometimes failed. Some engines were ruined. So you want to make sure it has been corrected.
The rear springs in the 4ES 300/330 are soft in my (and many others) opinion and do wear out. I put camry rear springs in ours and slightly stiffer KYB shocks and like it better.
For a Toyota 4 vs 6, there's really no difference in the longevity/reliability. There was a serious head bolt design problem with some earlier Toyota 4s, but that was in the 2000-2002 range and newer ones are not known to have any real issues AFAIK. My analysis is the same as yours; I don't find the mileage difference to really be that big so I prefer a 6 for the better qualities. As to hybrids, my understanding is the battery pack life is really very, very good and replacement prices have really come down over time. I wouldn't worry about that issue much, but you can ask at toyotanation.com to verify that or another source.
Avalon: I think the early ones are indeed old folks cars. The honestly remind me of Buicks. But the newer ones get the styling back in line with the general corporate look and are OK. I don't think quality will be different than a Camry as both are built in the G-town, KY plant. They started making (non-hybrid) ES's there this past model year, so a pre-'16 ES will be Japanese built. RX's have been built in Canada a while. All else is in Japan. A newer avalon might actually be easier to drive than a 4ES because of visibility. The limits of the 4ES 300/330 are in my opinion hard to gauge because of the slope of the exterior. I say might be as I have not driven a 2005+ Avalon, but I find the 4ES poor in the regard.
Fusion is interesting as you say, and one of the few cars I would consider replacing the ES with when it comes time (most likely will be another ES or maybe LS). The problem is the 2002 ES300 we have won't die. It looks good and drives great still at 270k miles. In fact, I was in SF early this month and tried to rent one at Hertz. Unfortunately I got there late in the day and they were all gone, so I was stuck with a Chevy. Which actually was not bad, really (Malibu LT). Anyway, if you are in SF and have a lot of bad traffic, test drive your cars in the traffic you have to live with. Some people find the shifting on the 4ES very annoying in extended stop/go traffic. I have heard similar complaints on newer generation Camries and other Toyotas, too. Another thing to know, if you end up with a later chain-equipped 3.5L V6, is that early years of these had a design flaw in that part of the oil routing to the OCVs (control the variable valve timing) was a u-shaped rubber hose that sometimes failed. Some engines were ruined. So you want to make sure it has been corrected.
01-01-17, 12:45 AM
#10
Driver
Thread Starter
Oro and others,
Thanks again for your in depth analysis on this.
I found a 04ES with 114,000 miles in my area from a private party that wants $6,000.
The first 80,000 miles was in Kansas and this person is the 2nd owner.
They have all the records and I looked up the vin on Lexus.com and Carfax and there are no accidents
or anything unusual.
The only problem is they seem to not want me to have a mechanic look at it.
They then said that, I would need to take it to 3 mechanics, and average out their results.
They say that their records of the last several years, show what condition it is in.
This sounds fishy to me and is a red flag.
I always have AAA check out a car that I buy used no matter what the cost.
If I am buying a lexus, I assume that I really should take it to a Lexus specialist or repair place?
If the owner has nothing to hide, why would they care who I take it to?
Maybe they suspect some things are wrong and don't want to know about it,
because they would feel guilty selling it.
A mechanic is like a lawyer that represents you in any legal transaction.
A good mechanic might find all sorts of things that I haven't thought of.
Thanks again for your in depth analysis on this.
I found a 04ES with 114,000 miles in my area from a private party that wants $6,000.
The first 80,000 miles was in Kansas and this person is the 2nd owner.
They have all the records and I looked up the vin on Lexus.com and Carfax and there are no accidents
or anything unusual.
The only problem is they seem to not want me to have a mechanic look at it.
They then said that, I would need to take it to 3 mechanics, and average out their results.
They say that their records of the last several years, show what condition it is in.
This sounds fishy to me and is a red flag.
I always have AAA check out a car that I buy used no matter what the cost.
If I am buying a lexus, I assume that I really should take it to a Lexus specialist or repair place?
If the owner has nothing to hide, why would they care who I take it to?
Maybe they suspect some things are wrong and don't want to know about it,
because they would feel guilty selling it.
A mechanic is like a lawyer that represents you in any legal transaction.
A good mechanic might find all sorts of things that I haven't thought of.
Last edited by jgcec; 01-01-17 at 12:53 AM.
01-01-17, 04:48 AM
#11
Oro and others,
Thanks again for your in depth analysis on this.
I found a 04ES with 114,000 miles in my area from a private party that wants $6,000.
The first 80,000 miles was in Kansas and this person is the 2nd owner.
They have all the records and I looked up the vin on Lexus.com and Carfax and there are no accidents
or anything unusual.
The only problem is they seem to not want me to have a mechanic look at it.
They then said that, I would need to take it to 3 mechanics, and average out their results.
They say that their records of the last several years, show what condition it is in.
This sounds fishy to me and is a red flag.
I always have AAA check out a car that I buy used no matter what the cost.
If I am buying a lexus, I assume that I really should take it to a Lexus specialist or repair place?
If the owner has nothing to hide, why would they care who I take it to?
Maybe they suspect some things are wrong and don't want to know about it,
because they would feel guilty selling it.
A mechanic is like a lawyer that represents you in any legal transaction.
A good mechanic might find all sorts of things that I haven't thought of.
Thanks again for your in depth analysis on this.
I found a 04ES with 114,000 miles in my area from a private party that wants $6,000.
The first 80,000 miles was in Kansas and this person is the 2nd owner.
They have all the records and I looked up the vin on Lexus.com and Carfax and there are no accidents
or anything unusual.
The only problem is they seem to not want me to have a mechanic look at it.
They then said that, I would need to take it to 3 mechanics, and average out their results.
They say that their records of the last several years, show what condition it is in.
This sounds fishy to me and is a red flag.
I always have AAA check out a car that I buy used no matter what the cost.
If I am buying a lexus, I assume that I really should take it to a Lexus specialist or repair place?
If the owner has nothing to hide, why would they care who I take it to?
Maybe they suspect some things are wrong and don't want to know about it,
because they would feel guilty selling it.
A mechanic is like a lawyer that represents you in any legal transaction.
A good mechanic might find all sorts of things that I haven't thought of.
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Screwball (01-08-17)
01-01-17, 09:57 AM
#12
Driver
Thread Starter
How does a 330 ride compared to a 350?
What was changed in the 350, to make it better?
I have only done one test drive at a dealer of a 2006 330.
I did 2 test drives of a 350 recently, a 08 and 07, and in both cases it was exactly how I remember my 2010 es,
very solid, smooth, quiet ride with no imperfections to what I would say is a flawless experience.
How would a 330 compare to that assuming it is in excellent condition?
What would be the differences?
What was changed in the 350, to make it better?
I have only done one test drive at a dealer of a 2006 330.
I did 2 test drives of a 350 recently, a 08 and 07, and in both cases it was exactly how I remember my 2010 es,
very solid, smooth, quiet ride with no imperfections to what I would say is a flawless experience.
How would a 330 compare to that assuming it is in excellent condition?
What would be the differences?
01-01-17, 08:06 PM
#13
Lexus Champion
If your going with a Camry 4 cylinder, stick with the 2010 and newer models with the new 2.5L engine.
The older 2.4L had a lot of problems, including oil consumption and stripped head bolts, as attested in the Camry forums on ToyotaNation.
If your going with a V6, I suggest a 2009-11 Camry, or a 05-06 Camry.
The Camry is a cheap car to maintain, run and insure and is obviously the budget choice. I agree though that the 2007-2011 Camry interior is very cheap looking, especially if you've been used to driving a Lexus.
The older 2.4L had a lot of problems, including oil consumption and stripped head bolts, as attested in the Camry forums on ToyotaNation.
If your going with a V6, I suggest a 2009-11 Camry, or a 05-06 Camry.
The Camry is a cheap car to maintain, run and insure and is obviously the budget choice. I agree though that the 2007-2011 Camry interior is very cheap looking, especially if you've been used to driving a Lexus.
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jgcec (01-01-17)
01-01-17, 08:49 PM
#14
Driver
Thread Starter
take it to a Toyota dealer. pay for an oil change and ask for a free inspection. spend a little time, money, and effort up front so you don't get stuck with a bad decision. schedule it with the seller and offer to pay for the oil change - use a coupon from the dealer's site ($19.99) if you can find one. dealer has Saturday hours. the Toyota dealer should be fair, impartial, and consistent with other dealers. no need to go to three. if seller balks, walk. good luck.
or intentionally deactivated by a shady dealer. So you need to have someone run all the engine codes through a computer.
I don't see anywhere on the Toyota inspection form where that is done.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...e-checked.html
After reading the above discussion, I am leaning toward using the Lexus 150 point inspection form, (ATTACHED BELOW, Along with the Toyota form) Also AAA has a form that is somewhere between the two. AAAs cost is $100 as a member and can take 4 hours to do.
because each item is something that could cost you money in the future.
Also the current owner might not know about some problems with the car if they don't use that function
01-01-17, 08:56 PM
#15
Driver
Thread Starter
On carcomplaints.com they list the 2007-09 Camry as having high complaints,
listing excessive engine oil consumption as a problem.
http://www.carcomplaints.com/Toyota/Camry/