2002 ES300 Sludge!! Best course of action?
06-06-15, 06:51 AM
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2002 ES300 Sludge!! Best course of action?
Ok. Bad news. I had a friend replace the front valve cover gasket on my 2002 ES300 with 61000 miles, which I bought 6 months ago. Lo and behold the engine was sludged! Surprising, as the oil change history - while not good - was not so terrible either (about once a year or so with mobil 1, considering the low mileage intervals). Coupled with the fact this car is not from a 'sludge year'. The previous owner used some other mechanic, not a lexus/toyota dealer, so I don't know if this is to be expected or if there's some foul play going on.
I've attached a couple of pics (sorry for the blurriness). How bad is the problem? For this level of sludge build-up, what would be the best solution? Would an oil flush be safe? (some people I talked to recommended this) The sludge is hardened in areas, so I guess it could possibly get dislodged in chunks and cause problems. Should I run a good synthetic oil in it every 6 months? Or use cheap oil every few months? Any other suggestions or an assessment of how bad this particular sludge problem is would be greatly appreciated! Hoping to tap into the experiences of other owners
Other than the sludge, the car drives well enough (although it feels a bit sluggish). I may be hearing things but I thought I started to hear a bit of rattling after cold-starting the car. Haven't noticed any warning lights to date.
I've attached a couple of pics (sorry for the blurriness). How bad is the problem? For this level of sludge build-up, what would be the best solution? Would an oil flush be safe? (some people I talked to recommended this) The sludge is hardened in areas, so I guess it could possibly get dislodged in chunks and cause problems. Should I run a good synthetic oil in it every 6 months? Or use cheap oil every few months? Any other suggestions or an assessment of how bad this particular sludge problem is would be greatly appreciated! Hoping to tap into the experiences of other owners
Other than the sludge, the car drives well enough (although it feels a bit sluggish). I may be hearing things but I thought I started to hear a bit of rattling after cold-starting the car. Haven't noticed any warning lights to date.
06-06-15, 07:04 AM
#2
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It's hard to tell from your pictures. Can you post better pictures.
Can you remove any of the sludge with your fingers?
Do you have any sludge related symptoms?
Check your PCV Valve. Make sure its not clogged.
Can you remove any of the sludge with your fingers?
Do you have any sludge related symptoms?
Check your PCV Valve. Make sure its not clogged.
Last edited by PFB; 06-07-15 at 06:29 AM.
06-06-15, 08:04 AM
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If you want to run a milder cleaner, I would run some regular oil with about 1/2 quart Mystery marvel oil (MMO) added and change it and filter about 1-2K miles for a few times. Then stick with good synthetic oil.
06-07-15, 12:50 AM
#4
No way on earth does that car have 61k miles and an annual change with Mobil 1. No way, unless it was driven 30k miles on the factory fill in Eastern Washington heat the first year and then the annual changes started after that. And the Mobil 1 fills were 50/50 with vegetable oil. No way does that reported history match up with the visual evidence. Complete BS.
That said, "it is what it is" and you have to deal with it. I'd start out with an initial plan that looked like this:
a) clean what you can w/o disassembly on the head.
b) drop oil pan and do the same on the bottom, too (don't know how easy that is, have not dropped pan on ours). make sure the pick up screen is not clogged.
c) fill with 50/50 mix of ATF and cheap dino 5 or 10w-30. Like SuperTech from Walmart. Run 1/2 hour at idle/low Rpm.
d) Drain, repeat c). This will do a LOT of cleaning.
e) Fill with a 5qt jug of 5w-30 Pennzoil Platinum and run 1k miles. Top off with ATF, run 50 miles, drain.
f) If things are looking good at this point, re-Fill with M1 5w-30 High MIleage and drive it and change it in 5k. Use the same oil and move out to 7.5k OCIs if things are back to normal.
That would be my preliminary strategy and I would refine it at each step as I saw results. You could also use a 15w-40 HDEO as a cleaning agent, there are many ways you can proceed. I have some experience cleaning fouled rings in specific and engines in general using HDEO, ATF, also SeaFoam, all with good results. You can get varying advice and it may work equally well. Your goal is to do it gradually and not clog the pick up filter and oil-starve the engine at any point.
A cheap effective filter regimen is to use either Napa Silver filters or Microguard filters from O'Reillys - both are equivalent Wix standard filters and very good for their modest price. I use these on even longer drain invtervals on very clean engines with synthetic oils and they are great for the money, and cheap enough to use on these quick-change cleaning cycles to get rid of sludge.
A trick I saw at Toyotanation.com, and think is worth doing in your case, is that while you have the front bank valve cover off: take a dremel or other small saw and cut away the oil filler baffle. This will allow you to visually inspect the head from the filler cap, which is otherwise not possible. In this case, this would be useful to measure progress and not have to pull the VC and screw with the gasket to really see what is going on.
Good luck and let us know. You are smart you took the precaution of having someone open it up even with reported lower mileage. This problem can be solved with some smart thinking, correct fluid treatment, and attention.
That said, "it is what it is" and you have to deal with it. I'd start out with an initial plan that looked like this:
a) clean what you can w/o disassembly on the head.
b) drop oil pan and do the same on the bottom, too (don't know how easy that is, have not dropped pan on ours). make sure the pick up screen is not clogged.
c) fill with 50/50 mix of ATF and cheap dino 5 or 10w-30. Like SuperTech from Walmart. Run 1/2 hour at idle/low Rpm.
d) Drain, repeat c). This will do a LOT of cleaning.
e) Fill with a 5qt jug of 5w-30 Pennzoil Platinum and run 1k miles. Top off with ATF, run 50 miles, drain.
f) If things are looking good at this point, re-Fill with M1 5w-30 High MIleage and drive it and change it in 5k. Use the same oil and move out to 7.5k OCIs if things are back to normal.
That would be my preliminary strategy and I would refine it at each step as I saw results. You could also use a 15w-40 HDEO as a cleaning agent, there are many ways you can proceed. I have some experience cleaning fouled rings in specific and engines in general using HDEO, ATF, also SeaFoam, all with good results. You can get varying advice and it may work equally well. Your goal is to do it gradually and not clog the pick up filter and oil-starve the engine at any point.
A cheap effective filter regimen is to use either Napa Silver filters or Microguard filters from O'Reillys - both are equivalent Wix standard filters and very good for their modest price. I use these on even longer drain invtervals on very clean engines with synthetic oils and they are great for the money, and cheap enough to use on these quick-change cleaning cycles to get rid of sludge.
A trick I saw at Toyotanation.com, and think is worth doing in your case, is that while you have the front bank valve cover off: take a dremel or other small saw and cut away the oil filler baffle. This will allow you to visually inspect the head from the filler cap, which is otherwise not possible. In this case, this would be useful to measure progress and not have to pull the VC and screw with the gasket to really see what is going on.
Good luck and let us know. You are smart you took the precaution of having someone open it up even with reported lower mileage. This problem can be solved with some smart thinking, correct fluid treatment, and attention.
Last edited by Oro; 06-07-15 at 01:12 AM.
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bloodyKnuc (12-16-16)
06-07-15, 12:59 AM
#5
Another thought, given the oil issue here, I would STRONGLY recommend you pulll the OCV lines on each cylinder bank. Check the filters. Perhaps pull the solenoids (valves) and clean and/or inspect them. After the cleaning regimen, I'd repeat that.
The VVT-i system is very prone to damage from oil starvation and sludging, and clogging of the cone mesh filters at the rear of each cylinder bank. If there is no damage now, you want to take precautions so none show up later from the clearly extant problems from oil service negligence. This is not very hard to do at all and info is easily found from googling about the VVT-i and OCV system on the Toyota 1mz-fe engines. (keywords there for you to search on).
The VVT-i system is very prone to damage from oil starvation and sludging, and clogging of the cone mesh filters at the rear of each cylinder bank. If there is no damage now, you want to take precautions so none show up later from the clearly extant problems from oil service negligence. This is not very hard to do at all and info is easily found from googling about the VVT-i and OCV system on the Toyota 1mz-fe engines. (keywords there for you to search on).
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bloodyKnuc (12-16-16)
06-07-15, 09:29 AM
#7
My mechanic recently got some new stuff made by Mobil1, it's an OIL based cleaner - no detergents which are a no-no, since they dry up seals.
Same principal as above with the ATF, but this stuff is simply a drain oil, add M1 cleaner, run for 30-40 mins, drain. Fill with oil, see how it is.
It is pricey, at 80$ here in Canada to do it, but everything is dirt cheap in the US, so you should be able to get something similar.
You can read all you want on clublexus, but I highly recommend going on bobistheoilguy.com - it's a forum dedicated to oils, OCI's, etc. and this topic [pertaining to toyotas] numerous times with various suggestions and empirical data [blackstone oil analysis] to back it up...
Good luck.
Same principal as above with the ATF, but this stuff is simply a drain oil, add M1 cleaner, run for 30-40 mins, drain. Fill with oil, see how it is.
It is pricey, at 80$ here in Canada to do it, but everything is dirt cheap in the US, so you should be able to get something similar.
You can read all you want on clublexus, but I highly recommend going on bobistheoilguy.com - it's a forum dedicated to oils, OCI's, etc. and this topic [pertaining to toyotas] numerous times with various suggestions and empirical data [blackstone oil analysis] to back it up...
Good luck.
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06-11-15, 05:10 PM
#8
I'm starting to get really worried about this myself in my '99 with 144k. Check out some stuff I found from around 100k on the Lexus service history
CUSTOMER DOES NOT WANT WORK DONE - CODE P1354/ VVTI STICKING PLUS OIL CONT. CEL.ALSO NEED TO PULL OIL PAN TO CK SCREEN BUT NEED TO KNOW FROM OWNER IF THE OIL LIGHT HAS BEEN ON. ENGINE IS WORN INTERNAL ,DOES SMOKE AT IDLE AND ENGINE HAS HARD GEL SIGNS.... BUT IT MIGHT BE SAVED BUT WILL NOT - CUSTOMER DENIED SERVICE - RECOMMENDED, NOT DONE - CUSTOMER DOES NOT WANT WORK DONE
CUSTOMER DOES NOT WANT WORK DONE - PROVIDE ESTIMATE TO REPLACE MOTOR WITH NEW LEXUS SHORT BLOCK. OP CODE 120101 - CUSTOMER DENIED SERVICE - RECOMMENDED, NOT DONE - CUSTOMER DOES NOT WANT WORK DONE
GEL IN ENGINE CLOGGED UP VVT, CAUSING MISSFIRES AND ROUGH IDLE CONCERN, ALSO CAU - C/S THAT CHECK ENGINE LIGHT IS ILLUMINATED AT THIS TIME. C/S THAT IT HAS BEEN ON FOR ABOUT A WEEK AND THAT VEHICLE IS RUNNING ROUGH AT THIS TIME. - BANK 2 VVT STICKING, CAUSING MISSFIRE CODES IN BANKS 2,4 AND 6, DURING INSPECTION FOUND ENGINE TO HAVE GEL, NOTIFIED ADVISOR - GEL IN ENGINE CLOGGED UP VVT, CAUSING MISSFIRES AND ROUGH IDLE CONCERN, ALSO CAUSING CHECK ENGINE LIGHT
OWNER HAS DECLINED REPAIRS - C/S THAT CHECK ENGINE LIGHT IS ILLUMINATED AT THIS TIME. C/S THAT IT HAS BEEN ON FOR ABOUT A WEEK AND THAT VEHICLE IS RUNNING ROUGH AT THIS TIME. - NEEDS ENGINE WORK. - OWNER HAS DECLINED REPAIRS
My logic is that if the car is now at 144k and runs really good with no problems and no CEL, it should have been taken care of, since I don't see any service records between 100k to now
CUSTOMER DOES NOT WANT WORK DONE - CODE P1354/ VVTI STICKING PLUS OIL CONT. CEL.ALSO NEED TO PULL OIL PAN TO CK SCREEN BUT NEED TO KNOW FROM OWNER IF THE OIL LIGHT HAS BEEN ON. ENGINE IS WORN INTERNAL ,DOES SMOKE AT IDLE AND ENGINE HAS HARD GEL SIGNS.... BUT IT MIGHT BE SAVED BUT WILL NOT - CUSTOMER DENIED SERVICE - RECOMMENDED, NOT DONE - CUSTOMER DOES NOT WANT WORK DONE
CUSTOMER DOES NOT WANT WORK DONE - PROVIDE ESTIMATE TO REPLACE MOTOR WITH NEW LEXUS SHORT BLOCK. OP CODE 120101 - CUSTOMER DENIED SERVICE - RECOMMENDED, NOT DONE - CUSTOMER DOES NOT WANT WORK DONE
GEL IN ENGINE CLOGGED UP VVT, CAUSING MISSFIRES AND ROUGH IDLE CONCERN, ALSO CAU - C/S THAT CHECK ENGINE LIGHT IS ILLUMINATED AT THIS TIME. C/S THAT IT HAS BEEN ON FOR ABOUT A WEEK AND THAT VEHICLE IS RUNNING ROUGH AT THIS TIME. - BANK 2 VVT STICKING, CAUSING MISSFIRE CODES IN BANKS 2,4 AND 6, DURING INSPECTION FOUND ENGINE TO HAVE GEL, NOTIFIED ADVISOR - GEL IN ENGINE CLOGGED UP VVT, CAUSING MISSFIRES AND ROUGH IDLE CONCERN, ALSO CAUSING CHECK ENGINE LIGHT
OWNER HAS DECLINED REPAIRS - C/S THAT CHECK ENGINE LIGHT IS ILLUMINATED AT THIS TIME. C/S THAT IT HAS BEEN ON FOR ABOUT A WEEK AND THAT VEHICLE IS RUNNING ROUGH AT THIS TIME. - NEEDS ENGINE WORK. - OWNER HAS DECLINED REPAIRS
My logic is that if the car is now at 144k and runs really good with no problems and no CEL, it should have been taken care of, since I don't see any service records between 100k to now
Last edited by JDMSteven; 06-11-15 at 05:19 PM.
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