bluebird1

2 years ago I bought mine at the local dealership. It had 55k and was under an extended full 3 yr. warranty. Now it has 7 months left on it. For the most part they have fixed everything I have taken it in for. Small things.

I now took it in for some more small things. The rep that called me this time, made a big boo boo. He had not realized I bought it from *them* only two years ago. This is what he said, yes, we will fix AC problems under warranty. But, there are some other major problems, looks like its been 7 or 9 years since you have changed anything major: belts, hoses, with cracks, timing belt.That all needs to be changed and there is major sludge or carbon something build up that all needs to be cleaned out badly.

I then told him, first I thought the timing belt was covered(need to check on that, read my warranty) and I bought this car from you guys two years ago, 25k ago. He stumbled around and said he would make a note of all it for when i pick it up and I can think about it.

Isnt a "certified pre-owned" supposed to have checked and changed all that. Do I have a valid point to call them on this. Also I read about that lawsuit on sludge that Toyota ended up paying out and admitting if you change your oil and do your maintenance (I have) then it is their problem to fix it on them!

Let me say, I am a woman and he may have thought he hit the lottery with me. Any suggestions on how to go about this?!

Thank you!

ArmyofOne

Well, a Timing Belt is a maintenance thing, so unless your warranty says it covers it, its likely not a covered part. Make sure if you have them do it, they do the water pump when they are in there. Heaven forbid they take it apart, change the timing belt (the water pump is right behind it, driven by it), then put it all back together, charge you $1,000+ and send you on your way. Then, 3 months later, the water pump goes out, and shreds your new timing belt with it, costing you ANOTHER $1,000+. Much cheaper to add the $150 to the bill the first time LOL.

If it was CPO, then call them on everything else, but the timing belt is a scheduled service interval, and is not likely to be covered under warranty, unless it is destroyed by the failure of a covered part. If their rates are reasonable, have them do the water pump while they are in there. If not, take it to another dealer/independant service center. If you let them do the "sludge" cleaning, ask them to keep a small sample of it to show you so you can see for yourself. It is not likely the sludge you were thinking of if the car was running properly when you took it in.

bluebird1

ArmyofOne Thank you! Very helpful! And guess what, timing belt is covered! I have a copy of THEIR warranty and there it is, clear as day in the list of Covered: Timing Belt, Timing Chain, Water Pump! This is so enraging. I even said to him, I think it is included. He said no it is not. But he did not know I had bought it there with their certified pre-owned warranty, one of the main reasons I bought the car. Had he known he probably would not have mentioned it. And trust me, he really put the heat on.... "this is really dangerous, I would not wait on these things, all that sludge(he used the words like carbon minoxide or something, corroding the fuel injection that could ruin the engine in no time. Now I am pissed. For many reasons, either he was making it all up for the sale. Or it has been like that and I have been driving around in a dangerous car because they did not want to put out the money for my warranty. I wonder if I should call his manager and complain. Or talk to him first and see what he does. I do know he was dead silent when he finished his scare sales pitch and I said I bought it two years ago from you guys. So maybe he is already nervous and will fix it all. Either way, first thing monday I am calling him on all of this. Especially the timing belt(and water pump!) and that I DO NOT want to drive around in a dangerous car, change that all under my warranty. This could all work out best for me. They might not have said a word. I do have a private mechanic, but that would cost to have it all checked then to take it to lexus. Still cheaper!

What do you think about the whole sludge thing. Basically the entire engine parts are covered so why in the world, if I am doing my part, is all that stuff there. They should clean it under warranty or change the parts that are causing that. I think he saw a woman coming in who seemed clueless and went to town. Well, the tables are turning now. Arghhh.

Thanks for your help! Really.

BradTank

It's just a standard BS line when you take your car in to a dealership that they tell you it needs a few thousand dollars worth of maintenance and hope you at least pick at least a few items. The things my family members who take their cars to the dealership ask me about is jaw dropping. Things like your front and rear brakes need to be changed every 12k miles. This guy is ripping you off, and yes, they do take advantage of people that they can pull one over on.

From what your describing, I honestly wouldn't get a single item repaired at this point. You have a while before the timing belt needs to be changed. Check your owners manual, but it's usually something like 90k miles, and that's honestly being really conservative, I probably wouldn't bother with it until around 100k miles (unless you can get it done for free) There's plenty of people have over 150k miles on them (not that I recommend that).

Can you see any leaks on your hoses? If your hoses are truly cracked and leaking (highly unlikely at your mileage) you should see some evidence of it. Is the accessory belt(s) squealing? If not, it's probably fine. What proof does he have the engine has sludge (have you had any issues)? If it has sludge and you've gotten regular oil changes, that is something that should be covered by an extended warranty (but I highly doubt you have sludge, he's just trying to sell you a wallet flush, er, I mean engine flush).

For non-warranty repairs and maintenance, I'd ask around and find a reputable independent shop. Your car is for the most part a Toyota Camry and can be easily serviced by just about any shop.

bluebird1

That is all a relief and really helpful, Bradtank. I will try to get timing belt changed for free under warranty then have my mechanic that has been doing oil changes look for all this mess he is talking about. And to answer your questions, the engine looks clean as a whistle. The only two things that ever concerned me, is when I start the car in the morning, there is a puff of grey smoke coming out of the tail pipe. But only first in the morning. Then my car hesitates at times during acceleration, since I first bought it it did that though. And it has not gotten worse. So probably just the normal with my model?

Thanks.

mdbrown

Do NOT wait until 150k miles to change your timing belt... unless you want to run the risk of paying for a motor (your warranty will NOT cover if you do not do the timing belt at the prescribed mileage - 90k). This is an intereference engine and it is likely to grenade if the belt breaks while driving. As for the other stuff, at 90k miles have the transmission fluid changed, have the brake and cooling system flushed. I'd recommend a fuel system service at that time as well. From what it sounds like your service advisor was telling you about carbon buildup on the injectors and in the cylinders. If it's running fine and you use good quality fuel don't bother until you reach 90k. I'm divided on doing the waterpump at 90k, it's always been my recommendation but many here say not until 180k. If you can afford it easily then it might not be a bad idea although your warranty should cover it if it fails.

Whenever your service advisor makes recommendations such as the above, don't assume he's trying to take you (although in this instance I'd be a bit suspicious) but ask him to show you what he wants and why. For instance the drive belts will develop lots of tiny cracks soon after they are installed. As long as there are no large cracks/you can't see any of the cords/there is not missing rubber then you are probably okay. I would recommend, in your case, keeping a log of anything and everything that is changed/flushed/replaced so you know immediately if they are trying to replace or flush something prematurely. When that happens go to the service manager with your concerns, if you do not get the answers you should then it's time to find a new service department.

FYI, the hesitation is not normal for your car. The smoke might simply be condensation. Sounds like you might well benefit from a fuel induction service. If you do not have another Lexus or Toyota dealer locally you can go to for the timing belt I would sit down with the service manager and see if you can get a different advisor.

mdbrown

In turning this over in my mind after I posted the above there are some other things to consider. I don't know what transpired but, if you made mention of the hesitation and smoke he might very well be recommending the fuel induction service because of that. As for the drive (not timing) belt, what looked good at 55k miles may very well need changing at 80k miles as they are all likely OE. I don't know how they presented all this so it's hard to say whether any of it is legitimate or not. Recommending a timing belt 10k early certainly isn't a big deal IF he stated that it's due at 90k so you might want to do it while we have it here and apart for the A/C. Did he state the hoses were soft (or rock hard)? If either is the case then you need them. Again, have him show you everything that was recommended.

bluebird1

MDbrown,
Thank you for taking the time to give me your advice. Really helpful. Okay, a few things. I had not mentioned to this advisor(get a different one everytime about the hesitating, that was on 3 different occasions on which each advisor said, normal, after looking it over they said no issue. That could be true, I am hyper sensitive. On this occasion I was bringing it in for the AC, of which they are fixing under warranty(and yes, I do keep track of everything on the car). But this time, this is the first. He said, now, I have some bad news, there are some real issues that need to be done. At which point I got scared. Then he mentioned, yes that was it, exactly what you said carbon buildup on the injectors and in the cylinders. That that all needed to be cleaned out badly or my engine would quickly fail, he gave a cost of 159 for that. Then he said, "I dont know what you have been doing, but you are very lucky to get away with 7 yrs or 9 yrs of not doing any major work, meaning the belts and hoses, and the timing belt. You could really be in a dangerous situation, you really cannot let them go like that. You cannot put it off any longer. I mean they get old and cracked, flimsy, they could break while you are driving." Those were almost his exact words. I dont think he could describe my exact issue because he did not know. I never heard the word, soft of rock hard. All I was thinking my car has been in your shop for a new starter, oil change, etc, little things at least 4 times over 2 years, and I never heard a word about this?! And I had read the timing belt at 90,000k. So then I say to him, I thought the timing belt was included. No, he says. Well, he was wrong, I looked it up, it is definitely included. Then, at the end is when I said. "7 or 9 years? I bought this car from you guys 2 years ago, certified pre-owned. I have the 20 point or whatever checklist" He was dead silent. I was too scared to push it. So then he just quickly said, well, I will write all this down, we will do the ac stuff all under warranty and you can pick up your car on Monday. I said, yes, I need to think about all this. So I dont know what he is thinking. But either way, I am calling on Monday to at least TELL him, nicely, that the timing belt is included. And MD I love your suggestion! Do not assume he is "taking" me, but to ask him to show me exactly what he is talking about. That is an excellent idea. I am an intelligent person who can see with my eyes. And now I know from your description what to look for, it is also good to know that there are some cracks anyways with new belts. That info is great!

He did not mention ANY specific belts or hoses that were bad, besides timing belt, just kinda bunched them all together as part of the "major, important stuff" that needed to be done, and that he assumed I had put off for 7 or 9 years.

My question for you is..... do you consider that fuel induction service normal for my car, does everyone have to do it? Cost?

There is no other dealership nearby. I will see how this one handles it. He may have already done something after I alerted him the history of my car. I hope so! Otherwise, I will just talk to him on Monday morning and see what I can work out.

I guess the only unknown left for me, is what is reasonable for that cleaning or induction situation.
1. they should have done it 2 years ago, certified pre-owned.
2. Is that a normal thing, like oil changes to do this
3. It is not listed to do under my warranty agreement to keep my car under warranty
4. Why is it there? Isnt it bad or leaky parts that make that happen, change those?
WDYT? Is it out of line for me to ask for them to do it. Again, I will ask them to show me, and or give me sample of it. (great idea) Maybe I will take it to my mechanic and have him look at it. I trust him. I will NOT have them do until I do that.

As far as the hoses, I am definitely asking him to show me. I will try to get the timing belt changed under warranty no matter what. I hear you about water pump, we will see if he offers that too, it is under warranty. If not I should be fine. I did find that Accessory Drive belts are NOT included in warranty.

97'ES

I'm sure the hoses are fine. Hoses these days generally last at LEAST ten years or 100k plus...The accessory belt could very well need a change. The timing belt coverage in the warranty I'm sure applies to failure not routine maintenance but if it is included you have one hell of a warranty. Run some quality fuel injector cleaner such as Chevron with techron fuel system cleaner or Shell V-power fuel system cleaner for the injectors, available at your local walmart or any auto parts store. As far as carbon buildup in the top end, what type of gas do you use as far as brand,octane, always the same station or mix it up etc?.. But yes they are in all likelyhood trying to take you for a ride because your a woman etc.. and they were too ignorant to realize they warranty it lol...

bluebird1

Thank you 97ES. Where do I put that cleaner? In the gas tank, where the fuel goes? Does that help with the injectors, carbon buildup?

I have mostly 80% used Chevron mid grade at the same station near my house. Only every once in awhile do I use other stations, but always mid or top grade, never regular. I have gotten the oil changed at every 3,000 with only synthetic. I know I dont really need to until 5k.

Yes, I bet you are right about the timing belt. Now he has himself in a pickle. He said I needed it, but not thinking it was in the warranty. Hmmmmm. I wonder what he will do now. I will see what he says first. But from the sounds of it from you guys, that should be fine AND I will ask him to show me his recommendations in person.

But you are saying I probably do need the accessory belts. Which I will have my friend mechanic look at and do if need be, probably a much better price. He has worked on all cars, mainly Volvo, Toyota, Honda etc. I trust him. Thank you so much for your help.

mdbrown

Well, let me go through this step by step. Unless the drive belts are truly bad, leave them until you get the timing belt done as they have to come off when the timing belt is replaced so it can be done then for the cost of parts only. His recommendation on the timing belt is likely based on time, most people hit the 90k mark somewhere around year 7 so it's not yet due by mileage but it is overdue by time. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. As for the fuel induction service, he is basing this on time and mileage. You cannot see the carbon build up on the injectors or inside they cylinders. Best you can do (and they may have done this) is to remove the air intake hose and examine the throttle body, if it's dirty/black then it's time and that's a good recommendation if done properly. $159 is a reasonable price here anyway. At 55k miles I wouldn't think any of that stuff would've needed to be done. Remember, the belts and hoses are factory so while they may have been wonderful at 55k miles it's not a stretch to think they may need replacing at 80k. Tiny cracks on the belts are normal, deep cracks to the white cords and/or chunks missing are a red flag. If they are recommending radiator hoses then look for very soft or rock hard hoses or a swollen hose, any of those on either hose then replace them both.

Carbon build up happens over time although it's not inevitable. Use high quality fuel and stick with premium and you shouldn't have those issues. The throttle body getting dirty.. you can't avoid that though. As for satisfying warranty requirements I'll tell you the same thing I used to tell my clients when I was a service advisor... if all you want to do is satisfy what the warranty requires that's fine but don't expect the vehicle to thrive that way. All they are concerned with is maintaining those things they warranty, they don't give a flip about the rest of the car. What you need to do is find a service advisor that you like and trust and let them handle your car each time. I had clients that would not work with anyone else and it was to my advantage to make sure I never violated their trust.

Finally, the warranty will not pay for the waterpump if it is not leaking. If it's a covered item don't worry about it, just do the timing belt. The warranty can pay for it all should the pump fail at a later time.

bluebird1

I hear you about all the belts at once.... hmmm. So basically they will only fix the timing belt under warranty if it breaks while I am driving. What is the damage if that happens?!

Yes, I hear you, I will not lose sleep, just curious. No radiator hoses recommended that I am aware of. Great ,thanks for details about hoses, kinds of cracks etc. Ok, will for sure, stick with premium. I was unsure about that. Everyone has their opinion. Now I can see it does make a difference.

I really like your opinion about the warranty situation. I do want to take care of my car, and I have. Well, until I knew this stuff. I will take this guys recommendations then go to my mechanic and see what he says. Looks like from what you are saying, I will not be getting a timing belt nor anything else he mentioned under the warranty. I hear you about the fuel induction, yes they probably did look inside.

You have given me a fair idea of what to expect, and not expect. And what to actually do. I feel so much more informed. And comfortable. I wish I could find a good service advisor. I will try to really talk to this guy and see. I feel much more comfortable with all of your advice here. He will be shocked with my info! That is kind of funny. : ) And feels good. The bummer is I probably will have to spend the money soon. Oh well. I have gotten a lot from the warranty that will hold me over through many miles.

mdbrown

No, I was referring to the waterpump. Your service contract will not cover the waterpump unless it is failing. If they do actually cover the timing belt they will pay for it at 90k. I would call them (they should have a toll free number) and find out from them if they cover the timing belt on mileage only or time as well. If they cover for time then you can get it changed at your liesure, if they only cover by mileage then you'll have to wait until 90k.

I have not seen your car and I do not know the situation. With that caveat I will say this: If your warranty will pay for the timing belt by time, get it done now. If they will only pay based on mileage then get it done promptly at 90k. If you have a good warranty (easy care or fidelity) then they will cover the waterpump so don't sweat that until you have to. I'll leave whether to do the fuel induction now or wait, if it were me I'd do it now. At 90k, have the transmission fluid changed (no flush-drain and fill. The trans on this car has a drain plug so no filter needed). Do a brake flush and a cooling system flush. The cooling system flush should be done no less than once every 3 years no matter how long the coolant is supposed to last. If it were me, I'd do the transmission fluid every 60k miles but you can follow the manual on that. Unless they are in bad shape don't bother with the belts until you do the timing belt-replace them then.

I am curious, you say your mechanic yet you took it to the dealer. Why the dealer and where does your mechanic work?

bluebird1

Okay. I knew you were saying about the water pump. But now I understand how it works with the timing belt. I thought they would only change it if it broke. I have no phone number to call other than my dealership. The warranty is a Toyota Motor Services Insurance warranty. Only phone is the dealership. But no matter. I am like a dog to a bone when it comes to this stuff, once I know what I am dealing with. I am going to talk to this current service agent, now that he will know it is under warranty and see what he says. Hopefully they will do it by time. ALSO by look. Apparently, my agent did it by look and says it is dangerous/worn. If I have any doubts, I will talk to his manager, and then insurance company if need be.

As far as everything else, THANK YOU. It is so detailed what you have laid out. And it makes perfect sense. I just copied all of it and put it in my Lexus file so I can watch and do those things as necessary.

My friend has his own shop with his dad here in Florida. They had a Volvo specialized shop in CT for 20 years. So they know what they are doing. The whole reason is the warranty. That is the reason I bought this car. Well, the price, the model and the warranty. As far as warranty goes it has already paid off. I paid 13,000k 2 years ago at 55k. My car with 80k is worth more now than it was when I bought it. When does that happen?.... In this economy.

As far as the condition and everything else, it is perfect (looking!) Within the first few months I took it back for various small things they did for free. Then the rest under the warranty. Now the AC under warranty. So the warranty was well worth it.

I have had my friend mechanic check around when I got oil changes with him. And he seemed to think everything looked really clean, good. I am pretty sure he would have checked belts. He did not check anything he would have to take apart. And the last time was probably a year ago. I had to go somewhere else for my oil change this last time.

Anyways, my point is, he would charge me, of course to take apart anything to check it. So I will get the list from Lexus and give it to him and have him check out the areas and see what he thinks REALLY needs to be done.

I do agree to do things as a caution. I would bet they have not done a transmission change. Since I bought the car at 55k. Actually I will ask my agent. To see if they did a coolant flush, and a transmission change as part of the certified pre-owned thing before I bought it. Probably not. Anyways, thank you SO much. WIll go over all this with him. Taking my list.

bluebird1

By the way, I paid nothing for the warranty, it came with the car. I think I got the deal of the day, to lure people in. It was in the paper, same day I drove there with my boyfriend at the time and bought it.