Do the recent recalls effect the 2002 - 2006 ES models?
01-27-10, 11:05 AM
#1
Pole Position
Thread Starter
Do the recent recalls effect the 2002 - 2006 ES models?
It's been said that the recall for the accelerator pedal apply only to those 'Toyota models' built in North America...but about 1:08 into this video...it does indeed raise some questions...and this is not the first of the 2002 - 2006 generation to report similar happenings...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZWPI...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZWPI...eature=related
01-27-10, 11:39 AM
#2
It's hard to say, but from a technical point of view, blaming electromagnetic interference is very hard to prove (even according to the LA Times articles which zoomed in on this issue). It may indeed be that the pedal assembly was jammed on that particular car, or that there was some form of driver error.
Still, there is the question about how statistically there have been more reports of acceleration issues ever since drive-by-wire was introduced in 2002. Whether that means the system needs to be calibrated, an off-switch installed, remains to be seen.
However, in ALL of these cases, switching to neutral, pulling over is a possibility, provided that there is enough time and one reacts quickly enough.
Still, there is the question about how statistically there have been more reports of acceleration issues ever since drive-by-wire was introduced in 2002. Whether that means the system needs to be calibrated, an off-switch installed, remains to be seen.
However, in ALL of these cases, switching to neutral, pulling over is a possibility, provided that there is enough time and one reacts quickly enough.
01-27-10, 12:07 PM
#3
Pole Position
Thread Starter
I'm not really buying into the electrmagnetic interference jargon much either...but like I said there are other reports that similar happenings were documented with this generation of ES in the past...wonder how much wider this recall is going to get.
01-27-10, 12:33 PM
#5
As mentioned, the current sales stoppage and recall have naught to do with Lexus models, although they were likely spurned from the media scrutiny following that ES 350 incident. There have been 2 massive recalls related to this issue, first involving Camry/Avalon/Prius/Tacoma/Tundra/ES 350/IS line - for pedal reshape and override. The second, recent one is for RAV4/Corolla/Matrix/Avalon/Camry/Highlander/Tundra/Sequoia - replace the defective CTS pedal.
All of these incidences are in current model, 2006- onward vehicles. I doubt that they will extend it further, although it is possible. However, from following the news reports over the past five years, the ES 350 issue was festering for quite a while. IIRC, I first saw a local news report about it in 2007, where a woman's ES 350 accelerated on a highway and it turned out that the all-weather mat was installed on top of the regular carpet one. In that case, she had no idea how to stop the car, switch to neutral, use the 3-sec. button etc, she just panic braked and it didn't work, but the mat eventually came loose. That's when the first floor mat recall was issued--warning labels added, and checks done.
But that did not solve the underlying issue--even IF the wrong floor mat/incorrect installation is done--there should be more clearance to avoid jamming. That's why there is need for the current ES 350 recall. I suspect that the reason why the ES incidents happened to get more coverage, despite many more Camrys on the road, is because the ES 350 has 1) the push-button, 2) more owners using all-weather mats, 3) increased horsepower leading to faster acceleration, 4) older owners who may be unfamiliar with the new tech/slower to react, etc.
As far as the ES 300/330 is concerned, I would look to see the differences between the footwells of the ES 350 and ES 330...looking here, I think there's more clearance in the ES 330, but that needs to be quantitatively verified.
Now if there was a defective pedal part which wears over time, on the ES 300/330 I think we would have seen reports on that by now, either through the manufacturer or the owners grapevine. Perhaps there's something? So far though, no ES model is affected by the pedal part recall.
Finally, could it be that the drive-by-wire systems have a certain percentage of failure rates? Or perhaps they are modulated artificially, leading to (in some cases) overreacting to pedal inputs. If so, perhaps the system could be recalibrated, and the brake override system could be installed, but given that this model has lasted through its warranty period without the higher frequency of incidents as on the ES 350, such a move would likely be optional.
All of these incidences are in current model, 2006- onward vehicles. I doubt that they will extend it further, although it is possible. However, from following the news reports over the past five years, the ES 350 issue was festering for quite a while. IIRC, I first saw a local news report about it in 2007, where a woman's ES 350 accelerated on a highway and it turned out that the all-weather mat was installed on top of the regular carpet one. In that case, she had no idea how to stop the car, switch to neutral, use the 3-sec. button etc, she just panic braked and it didn't work, but the mat eventually came loose. That's when the first floor mat recall was issued--warning labels added, and checks done.
But that did not solve the underlying issue--even IF the wrong floor mat/incorrect installation is done--there should be more clearance to avoid jamming. That's why there is need for the current ES 350 recall. I suspect that the reason why the ES incidents happened to get more coverage, despite many more Camrys on the road, is because the ES 350 has 1) the push-button, 2) more owners using all-weather mats, 3) increased horsepower leading to faster acceleration, 4) older owners who may be unfamiliar with the new tech/slower to react, etc.
As far as the ES 300/330 is concerned, I would look to see the differences between the footwells of the ES 350 and ES 330...looking here, I think there's more clearance in the ES 330, but that needs to be quantitatively verified.
Now if there was a defective pedal part which wears over time, on the ES 300/330 I think we would have seen reports on that by now, either through the manufacturer or the owners grapevine. Perhaps there's something? So far though, no ES model is affected by the pedal part recall.
Finally, could it be that the drive-by-wire systems have a certain percentage of failure rates? Or perhaps they are modulated artificially, leading to (in some cases) overreacting to pedal inputs. If so, perhaps the system could be recalibrated, and the brake override system could be installed, but given that this model has lasted through its warranty period without the higher frequency of incidents as on the ES 350, such a move would likely be optional.
Last edited by encore888; 01-27-10 at 12:36 PM.
01-27-10, 02:16 PM
#7
Lexus Champion
the recall doesn't, but the actual part would only be possibly bad if you had that ype system - you see, they recalled the cars that have the ''drivebywire'' [borrowed from aviation, flybywire] system which is the design wherein the gas pedal is connected to a potentiometer, and the ECU then actuates the throttle plate or other regulation of engine power by electrical device. The throttle is cable operated, then the recall can not be defintion apply to your vehicle.
contact a dealer AND your local, trusted ASE cert'd technician for more info about your car. be safe.
contact a dealer AND your local, trusted ASE cert'd technician for more info about your car. be safe.
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01-28-10, 03:32 AM
#8
Pole Position
Thread Starter
Damage Control...
A summary of recent events & yes it looks like the recall is going to be expanded...although the details are vague...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/toy...disaster-city/
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/toy...disaster-city/
01-28-10, 05:14 AM
#9
Pole Position
Thread Starter
And now from Motortrend.com...
From Motortrend.com via the L.A. Times (this is page 4 of the article)...of the summary of events...
November 29, 2009: A new Los Angeles Times story claims a number of Toyota drivers say their vehicles had still accelerated out of control with the floor mats removed. The Times also reports complaints of unintended acceleration increased after Toyota began using its drive-by-wire system in 2002, starting with the ES 300. According to the Times, unintended acceleration complaints on Lexus ES 300s jumped from an average of 26 per year in 2001 to 132 per year in 2002, and there had been 19 deaths since 2002 related to unintended acceleration in Toyotas, compared with 11 deaths connected to all other automakers combined. The story also notes Toyota has been investigated for unintended acceleration more times than any other automaker, and that 74 of 132 complaints lodged against the 2007 Lexus ES 350 were for cases of unintended acceleration. Toyota has no explanation, but says its drive-by-wire system is not to blame, again citing the November 2 NHTSA report.
However, the Times notes that the agency has only investigated the drive-by-wire system twice in its nine investigations and Toyota had issued three separate service bulletins for 2002 and 2003 Camrys concerning unintended acceleration issues with the drive-by-wire system. The Times says NHTSA had asked Toyota to look into an issue with the electronic throttle body on the 2006 Camry, which Toyota immediately delegated to the parts supplier. When the supplier reported there was no problem, NHTSA accepted the finding and quietly closed the report, keeping most of its 74 pages confidential.
Full 4 page article link here..."Here's how the crisis unfolded":
http://www.motortrend.com/features/a...sis/index.html
From Motortrend.com via the L.A. Times (this is page 4 of the article)...of the summary of events...
November 29, 2009: A new Los Angeles Times story claims a number of Toyota drivers say their vehicles had still accelerated out of control with the floor mats removed. The Times also reports complaints of unintended acceleration increased after Toyota began using its drive-by-wire system in 2002, starting with the ES 300. According to the Times, unintended acceleration complaints on Lexus ES 300s jumped from an average of 26 per year in 2001 to 132 per year in 2002, and there had been 19 deaths since 2002 related to unintended acceleration in Toyotas, compared with 11 deaths connected to all other automakers combined. The story also notes Toyota has been investigated for unintended acceleration more times than any other automaker, and that 74 of 132 complaints lodged against the 2007 Lexus ES 350 were for cases of unintended acceleration. Toyota has no explanation, but says its drive-by-wire system is not to blame, again citing the November 2 NHTSA report.
However, the Times notes that the agency has only investigated the drive-by-wire system twice in its nine investigations and Toyota had issued three separate service bulletins for 2002 and 2003 Camrys concerning unintended acceleration issues with the drive-by-wire system. The Times says NHTSA had asked Toyota to look into an issue with the electronic throttle body on the 2006 Camry, which Toyota immediately delegated to the parts supplier. When the supplier reported there was no problem, NHTSA accepted the finding and quietly closed the report, keeping most of its 74 pages confidential.
Full 4 page article link here..."Here's how the crisis unfolded":
http://www.motortrend.com/features/a...sis/index.html
Last edited by Lexusfreak; 01-28-10 at 05:17 AM.
01-28-10, 11:58 AM
#10
That's a pretty good summary, I read it last night and only spotted a few errors/confusing bits. Clearly, the smoking gun is the increase in complaints, which requires explanation.
However, some of this relies on the LA Times' reporting, which was aimed towards blaming drive-by-wire, and alleged a coverup. They basically told the public that the floor mats and any mechanical issue was a smokescreen, and it's all electronics and electromagnetic interference. It got to the point that Toyota had to respond by calling them out on their unfair statements:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/26/t...times-article/
I read many of the Times' articles on this issue, and they quoted an Antony Anderson, identified as "a Britain-based electrical engineering consultant who investigates electrical failures and has testified in sudden-acceleration lawsuits." He stated (and the times put this in extra-large quotes):
This follows with more suspicion cast on drive-by-wire, but it is also speculative. But what strikes me, was researching this supposedly reliable expert, and I found his website:
http://www.antony-anderson.com/Cruise/1-intro.htm
He is largely against electronic throttles, suspicious of cruise control, and his whole perspective appears to be that of questioning car electronics. I'm guessing that in the lawsuits he testifies in, each side knows what they're getting when he's called in. I do think the idea of a "kill switch" for cars, also posited elsewhere, is worth considering though.
However, the suggestion that "the computer decides whether to obey you or not" strikes me as hyperbole. This is not an Airbus where there is flight envelope protection and the computer calculates whether a pilot's inputs are safe or not, it is a more simplistic circuit. I doubt that the control logic is very sophisticated in such a decision making process. Rather, it is a simpler matter of responding to the degree that the pedal is pressed. Could that be interfered with? Possibly. But relying on fear of computers and technology is not valid, we need direct evidence.
Regarding the TSIBs that were issued, I looked them up and these look to be the ones:
# EG022-02 DEC 02 A/T - Light Throttle 2nd - 3rd Gear Shift Shock/Shudder
# EG008-03 MAY 03 Engine Controls - Light Throttle Surging Condition
# SS002R-01 SEP 03 Engine Controls - ECU Reprogramming Procedure
# SS004R-01 SEP 03 Engine Controls - Error When Reprogramming ECU
The most serious one seems to be the second one on the list, described as "Surging during light throttle input at speeds between 38-42 mph with lock-up (l/u) on," and this could explain lower-speed incidents.
http://www.alldatadiy.com/TSB/59/035990a8.html
http://www.aboutautomobile.com/TSB/2...a/Camry/Engine
I was looking through other TSB sites to see if these applied to the ES 300/330, so far I found issues with shifting, which have been documented here on CL, but not the same TSBs that applied to the Camry.
http://www.carcomplaints.com/Lexus/E...002/tsbs.shtml
However, some of this relies on the LA Times' reporting, which was aimed towards blaming drive-by-wire, and alleged a coverup. They basically told the public that the floor mats and any mechanical issue was a smokescreen, and it's all electronics and electromagnetic interference. It got to the point that Toyota had to respond by calling them out on their unfair statements:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/26/t...times-article/
I read many of the Times' articles on this issue, and they quoted an Antony Anderson, identified as "a Britain-based electrical engineering consultant who investigates electrical failures and has testified in sudden-acceleration lawsuits." He stated (and the times put this in extra-large quotes):
"With the electronic throttle, the driver is not really in control of the engine. You are telling the computer, will you please move the throttle to a certain level, and the computer decides if it will obey you."
http://www.antony-anderson.com/Cruise/1-intro.htm
He is largely against electronic throttles, suspicious of cruise control, and his whole perspective appears to be that of questioning car electronics. I'm guessing that in the lawsuits he testifies in, each side knows what they're getting when he's called in. I do think the idea of a "kill switch" for cars, also posited elsewhere, is worth considering though.
However, the suggestion that "the computer decides whether to obey you or not" strikes me as hyperbole. This is not an Airbus where there is flight envelope protection and the computer calculates whether a pilot's inputs are safe or not, it is a more simplistic circuit. I doubt that the control logic is very sophisticated in such a decision making process. Rather, it is a simpler matter of responding to the degree that the pedal is pressed. Could that be interfered with? Possibly. But relying on fear of computers and technology is not valid, we need direct evidence.
Regarding the TSIBs that were issued, I looked them up and these look to be the ones:
# EG022-02 DEC 02 A/T - Light Throttle 2nd - 3rd Gear Shift Shock/Shudder
# EG008-03 MAY 03 Engine Controls - Light Throttle Surging Condition
# SS002R-01 SEP 03 Engine Controls - ECU Reprogramming Procedure
# SS004R-01 SEP 03 Engine Controls - Error When Reprogramming ECU
The most serious one seems to be the second one on the list, described as "Surging during light throttle input at speeds between 38-42 mph with lock-up (l/u) on," and this could explain lower-speed incidents.
http://www.alldatadiy.com/TSB/59/035990a8.html
http://www.aboutautomobile.com/TSB/2...a/Camry/Engine
I was looking through other TSB sites to see if these applied to the ES 300/330, so far I found issues with shifting, which have been documented here on CL, but not the same TSBs that applied to the Camry.
http://www.carcomplaints.com/Lexus/E...002/tsbs.shtml
Last edited by encore888; 01-28-10 at 12:26 PM.
01-28-10, 12:19 PM
#11
Lexus Champion
encore888,
Were you wrong or is there something you left out? Let me explain. Parking lots are 15 mph. 38MPH is not appropriate parking lot appropriate speed. the TSB in this logic wouldn't explain a parking lot crash for the vast majority of incidents.
guys, toyota been covering stuff up for a long time. i think they are getting JUST and DUE hell from the public and consumers for this one, its been building for a long time. tech's have known about this issue [and others] for a while, well before it was announced by toyota and mainstream media. and the engine sludge issue. etc etc etc. toyota quietly pays things off and makes them go away. but at least they weren't sticking things in the cars to spy on you for corporations and govt , like GM was doing openly with onstar, and other companies more covertly.
my car: has cruise control, not that i use it, weighs 3,570 lbs [around 300 lbs more than later models of ES], 5speed manual trans [im in control, no transmission shift problems! lol], cable-based accelerator [checked it out, it's pretty fail safe, ive seen bad designs this is not one of them], and no stability control traction control bull shat. hehe Get a '92 or '93 5speed , and you will be very happy and safe!!
Were you wrong or is there something you left out? Let me explain. Parking lots are 15 mph. 38MPH is not appropriate parking lot appropriate speed. the TSB in this logic wouldn't explain a parking lot crash for the vast majority of incidents.
guys, toyota been covering stuff up for a long time. i think they are getting JUST and DUE hell from the public and consumers for this one, its been building for a long time. tech's have known about this issue [and others] for a while, well before it was announced by toyota and mainstream media. and the engine sludge issue. etc etc etc. toyota quietly pays things off and makes them go away. but at least they weren't sticking things in the cars to spy on you for corporations and govt , like GM was doing openly with onstar, and other companies more covertly.
my car: has cruise control, not that i use it, weighs 3,570 lbs [around 300 lbs more than later models of ES], 5speed manual trans [im in control, no transmission shift problems! lol], cable-based accelerator [checked it out, it's pretty fail safe, ive seen bad designs this is not one of them], and no stability control traction control bull shat. hehe Get a '92 or '93 5speed , and you will be very happy and safe!!
Last edited by llcoolpass; 01-28-10 at 12:25 PM.
01-28-10, 12:29 PM
#12
Yes, you are right that parking lot speed is slower, but it may be possible that if there is a modulation issue and someone steps too hard, the car takes off and doesn't respond to the decreased driver input quickly enough. That is just speculation though, I wasn't able to find the full PDF for that Camry TSB.
Absolutely, for having this defective pedal part (although not in any Lexus ES), Toyota is getting flack and deserves the scrutiny. I do however want to sort out the facts from the sensationalism.
I found this article detailing the throttle design:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...8?s_name=Autos
It's great to have a manual car, and one with the tried-and-true mechanical-only systems. However, the industry trend towards electrics is uniform across all major brands. And the NHTSA and govt. organizations have been pushing for electronic stability control across all cars, because the research shows it saves lives.
Absolutely, for having this defective pedal part (although not in any Lexus ES), Toyota is getting flack and deserves the scrutiny. I do however want to sort out the facts from the sensationalism.
I found this article detailing the throttle design:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...8?s_name=Autos
Up until now, Toyota's electronic throttle-control system was equipped with dual sensors backstopping each other in monitoring the accelerator pedal's position. In addition, the vehicles have two more sensors double-checking the throttle position. And there is also a control computer actuating the throttle and a monitoring computer surveying all the computer signals in the circuit. If any abnormal signals are detected, the engine is immediately returned to idle, according to Toyota.
However, according to Automotive News, Toyota did not introduce a brake override system earlier because the company was perfecting the technology.
Now we see the price of attempting to achieve perfection.
However, according to Automotive News, Toyota did not introduce a brake override system earlier because the company was perfecting the technology.
Now we see the price of attempting to achieve perfection.
Last edited by encore888; 01-28-10 at 12:52 PM.
01-28-10, 02:54 PM
#13
Pole Position
Thread Starter
I appreciate the detailed info encore...I wonder why the two Lexus dealer service departments I contacted were not able to give me the same explaination or details...except to say "your fine". 
That would have put my mind at ease.
That would have put my mind at ease.
01-28-10, 03:15 PM
#14
No problem. It could be legal scares that are keeping the dealers from saying too much, and the uncertainty with all the media speculation. Also there has been a coordination issue between TMC US HQ and Toyota dealerships, with many caught off-guard and uncertain as to what to do or say. They could do better IMO, with being more transparent, but sometimes human nature is to hunker down, circle the wagons when in the middle of a looming scandal or media firestorm.
In any case, the defective pedals are not on any Lexus vehicles. For that I am thankful at the separation that exists between Toyota and Lexus (more is needed IMO), and that the only Lexus made outside Japan, the RX 350 from Canada, uses Denso pedals imported from Japan.
However, further vigilance is needed. From a pure research & analysis point of view, the installation of the new pedals (either reshaped or replacement), plus the override, should greatly increase safety margins. There will definitely continue to be a high level of NHTSA complaints, given that everyone is now hyperaware of potential issues and are likely to report any potential incident. However, the added safety measures should eliminate potential accident causes.
For the current model ES with push button, I wager still most drivers do not know of the 3 second rule. With the prior gen ES, I'm guessing (haven't tested this) that they could turn the key and yank it out if neutral, brakes etc. don't work, but hopefully it does not come to that.
In any case, the defective pedals are not on any Lexus vehicles. For that I am thankful at the separation that exists between Toyota and Lexus (more is needed IMO), and that the only Lexus made outside Japan, the RX 350 from Canada, uses Denso pedals imported from Japan.
However, further vigilance is needed. From a pure research & analysis point of view, the installation of the new pedals (either reshaped or replacement), plus the override, should greatly increase safety margins. There will definitely continue to be a high level of NHTSA complaints, given that everyone is now hyperaware of potential issues and are likely to report any potential incident. However, the added safety measures should eliminate potential accident causes.
For the current model ES with push button, I wager still most drivers do not know of the 3 second rule. With the prior gen ES, I'm guessing (haven't tested this) that they could turn the key and yank it out if neutral, brakes etc. don't work, but hopefully it does not come to that.
Last edited by encore888; 01-28-10 at 03:20 PM.
01-28-10, 03:28 PM
#15
Lexus Connoisseur
