PhoenixVII

I'm a bit perplexed.

You see, I always seem to net higher Gas mileage than most other folks (call me Grandma...). My commute and drives are usually longer, not many street lights and stop & go traffic, and I tend to stay near 65mph on the highway instead of 75+. Gas mileage is something I can't tell on a "test drive" for my next car. I'd need to borrow it for a week or two...lol. So this is why I ask....

My Previous (daily) cars have all been great on Gas, 3-4 integra's netting 30-34mpg, 2 NA Mr2's with 30mpg, a Subaru legacy at 25-27mpg, then the Mr2 Turbo at 21-25mpg,...and...well.... Rx7 Twin Turbo at 16-18mpg at best lol.

I have a 5spd Integra that is a great blend of having some fun (For FWD it does turn pretty nicely! Although I'm a RWD fan....) while being practical...but...I'm beginning to think I should just get something quiet and luxurious for now, and save the "fun" for another Mr2-Turbo or Rx7 in the future...Enter: 1992+ ES300.

I did a Search and to no avail. 5 pages inward the results didn't show a thread dedicated to ES300 gas mileage figures. The EPA Rates it from 19-26mpg. And says it takes Regular unleaded fuel. Is 26-27mpg HWY going to be possible all year in the NE (Cold winters!)? I may resort to a simple 2.2L Camry instead...But love the ES300 look and feel over even the XLE (V6) 92+ Camry's....

Also- Didn't this model lexus last from 1992-2001? Isn't Consumerguide wrong in saying the model was from 97-01 here: http://consumerguideauto.howstuffwor...s-es-300-4.htm
?

Any help is greatly appreciated! I'm new here; but you may know me as "PhoenixDownVII" from other forums (Supra, Rx7, Mr2, 300zx, NSX, blah blah)

Couldn't fit my full name here

Pheonix

22-24mpg city, 25-26mpg highway. Anything more than 26mpg on a 3vz-fe, or frnakly the 1st gen 1mz-fe is really getting above average mileage.
i4 camrys without vvt-i are stupid. Most of them in poor mechanical shape get worse mileage than the average v6.

Please keep in mind. A 92-93 ES 300 / v6 Camry has more torque at 2500rpm than every other car you've thus far listed has at their torque peaks. Minus that rx-7, and the 3s-gte mr2 which. Is popular to swap this engine for the 3s-gte. off-boost torque of the v6's offset staggering amounts of peak horsepower. Even tho the 3s-gte's can dyno better from around 3000rpm on VS the non GR block N/A v6's.


Through 91 gen 2 Camry, 92-96 Gen 3 camry, 97-01 gen 4 camry, 02-05 gen 5 camry, 06+ gen6 camry. Got it?
The 3vz-fe was 92-93, The 1mz-fe was 94-96. New intake manifold & head design on the ES/Windom's in 97, vvt-i in 99. Then the '02 3mz-fe came, then the gen6 brought the 2gr-fe.

Here's a sick thought. If you can keep the headgasket bolted down on a 3vz-fe. You can make an sick amount of power compaired to every other engine you listed. Untouched.





Or just ditch the 3s-gte in favor of a Toyota v6 swap in your mr2. You'll get better gas mileage ontop of a stronger engine & a dominating powerband compaired to a re-turboed 3s-gte.

PhoenixVII

Thanks Phoenix for the thorough information!

I understand the Camry Generations, but the same ES300 model lasted from 92-01 correct?

I know that I'll have more torque- that's really attractive to me!

My Integra's, Mr2's, & Rx7, as you said- all had no torque! They were all about winding it up a notch, rev'ing higher.

My 2.2L Na MKII Mr2 and my 2.5L GT Legacy had a bit more torque/bite, obviously as they had more litre's.

The 26-27mpg I got in the Legacy GT Auto didn't "Break the bank", but I know driving as much as I do, the more gas mileage the better! However, if it's going to be a lower figure, I'd like to know it's for the right purposes. In this case I trade 5-6mpg from the Integra for a much quieter, smoother, more powerful ride.

Funny you should mention the MR2 Swap. My dream ride is an Ls1-FD for the sake of reliability and torque. However, if it's too far off and out of my price range, I was going to look into the V6-MR2 swaps, which are popular with the motor in the ES (3Vz? 2Vz?)....

I'm heavily into lightweight vehicles (can you tell?) so the Miata has tickled my fancy as well (Stout motors too!).

Pheonix

ES generations follow Camry generations. Toyota moves a 5 year product cycle with a mid generation update every 2 1/2 years. Lexus simply deemed most of it's 3.0L class cars "300" during that time frame.

For the mr2 swaps. Selling a good condition 3s-gte & E153 transmission generally pay for the parts for an N/A swap. I can't tell you about an LS1 miata VS a v6 MR2. *Probably* going to be easier maintaining track level handling in the MR2 tho. It's not only mid-engined, but the v6's are much lighter than the 3s-gte is. MZ blocks range 340-350lbs. GR's 360-399lbs. The 3vz-fe & 5vz-fe are 400-420lbs. 3s-gte's are 475lbs+.
LS1's are not heavy. They're like 450lbs's I think for an average crate engine. I don't keep up with them. But the point is that's replacing a featherweight engine that probably weighs mid 200lbs (Based on similar Toyota engines I KNOW the weigh of), and a small transmission, axles, driveshafts, differential. The engine drivetrain is light. So you're going to wind up adding. I would guess off the top of my head atleast 300-400lbs to a Miata. Like driving with a fat guy.

For the most part. You've got enough of a weight biased doing a gen2 mr 3s-gte to a turbo v6 swap. So that you can still keep the curb weight itself no more than stock levels.



I can tell you from first hand experiance that a lowly 250-260ish horsepower supercharged 1mz-fe walks the crap out of 350hp 3s-gte rebuilds & re-turbo'ed mr2, AND a stock C5 vette when it comes to a real track day. They are rediculously good track cars with basically no limit to the amount of power you would ever want to make after your basic engine rebuild.









The ES's are ging to feel alot heavier than they really are. They're only right around 3200-3300lb sedans. The chassie itself has always seemed impeccably tight with very precice steering. It's just that the steering has almost 0 input, or weight. And the suspension is really floaty. It's well dampened (If the struts are intact), but still quite floaty. It's an uneasy feeling driving very fast.
Best thing to do is to put a bigger rear sway bar on with new bushings. Atleast that get's the back end abit more connected for cheap.





















Eh. But thinkin about it since we talked on AIM. I can't honestly name a single early/mid 90's entry luxury sedan, or even a big sedan with a good engine that get's 30mpg on the highway with regularity.
It really took things like no torque Honda v6's, and cam trickeration from nissan & toyota (along with panzy mini v6 engines from ford) to make 30mpg big sedans in general. High 20's on the highway & low 20's city driving are pretty normal.





So, that's pretty much what I foresee you locked into.





Heh......... Integras are Camry/ES / Maxima/Infinity lunch meat unless they have a turbo, or a major engine build. These cars are not muscle cars, or fast by any means. But what you'll find out racing against weak powerband engines in lighter cars is that there's enough of a powerband to offset the weight penalty. Especially if you can entice one from any form of a rolling start.

Cdratz

Maybe I should start a new thread... but I got my 94 ES a week ago and have been getting 17-19 avg. MPG. Are there any easy fixes for that?

Pheonix

Yes. Fix the problem. LoL!




Oxygen sensors, or stuck fuel injectors. The majority of the time. Oxygen sensors.

PhoenixVII

Doh! Re-read what I wrote- "LS1-FD" implies LS1 3rd Gen Rx7! Not a Miata! I'm a weight junky, and 2700lbs is great for the class the 3rd Gen Rx7 is in (Against 3400 lb Supra, 3100 C5 & NSX, Etc. etc.) I think torquey and reliable 350+rwhp @ 2700lbs in a razor sharp chassy sounds like supercar ecstacy! The only reason NOT to go that route for me is simply the funds. It costs above/near $20k to build/acquire.

Really?! I figured a V6 would be equivalent to an I4+ Turbo, but I know it makes a big difference if it's a cast iron block vs. aluminum, amongst other things....Good to know! Thanks! This V6-Mr2 thing is sounding more and more enticing!


You see- I have absolutely NO clue about the Mz motors. How much power can they handle? When you say "they are good track cars", what 1mz equipped car are you talking about? Isn't it found in many chassis/models? I know much about LS1, 13b, 2jz/1jz, Sr20 etc. reputations...but never knew much of Mz motors...



LOL It's funny how we're talking performance so much in a thread about a car I considered to be the "easygoing" car. I don't *expect* performance out of the ES. I want everything the Integra doesn't have- luxury, quiet ride, smooth ride, comfort, etc. I don't ever plan on making any FWD car into a race car. I'd rather start with a RWD platform. Any of my FWD cars I've owned served their purpose for daily driving, winter driving, etc. Knowing I wouldn't have a RWD car (second vehicle) for fun for a while, I tried acquiring the cheapest, funnest FWD car I could experience- the 94+ Integra (Or Preludes...).



True. Nothing in the 90's anyways. You have to have less weight or a weaker motor for 30's+. And luxury cars usually have more weight and more power....I may just decide to suck it up...

Agreed. I'm urging my fiance to get an Accord V6 because they can see 30mpg. My friends old Chevy Lumina boasts a SOHC 3.8 V6 rated at 19-30 but I doubt the car ever see's 30...


I wouldn't be so sure. The integra's (even if not a GS-R or Type R) had a lot more "racing" engineering behind them than the family sedans. Camry is to Accord, as Celica is to integra . I've been to many-a-autoX and have seen the heavier guys make due, however. This doesn't change the fact that lighter weight is simply more fun to drive. I say, have both- Lightweight and more torque. Hence my V6-Mr2 or V8-Rx7 aspirations....

Again, thanks for the convo on Aim.

smokesgtp

The 3.8L or 3800 in your buddies Lumina is actually a pushrod design. Extremely venerable and torquey, basic design dates back to the late 70's Buick V-6's. I had a series 1 in a 94 Bonneville (3450lbs.+) used to average 30 exactly on highway trips, sometimes even touch 31 (bout 75mph). I believe it was rated 17/28 or something close. Used to average 19 around town which I thought was more than reasonable for anything displacing 3.8 Liters. Phoenix if u already answered i apologize but 97-01 was an extreme freshening so to speak for camry and ES alike. 30% Stiffer chassis, 2 inch wheelbase stretch, variable effort steering (although you would never know it). So they weren't the same but they weren't extremely different mechanically, wasn't a full redesign. I average about 20 around town with a heavy foot in my ES and about 28 Highway at 75+mph. U won't be let down no matter which way u go but pop for a 97+ if at all affordable, the interior is worth it alone.

Pheonix

Whoops, I misread & thought v8 Miata since we were talking Miatas on AIM.

Just so noone get's confused I'm equating us to Camry generations. Gen 3 = 92-96, gen 4 = 97-01.
97-01 is a completely new generation. Not a refreshening. The really super funny part. Is that the chassie may be stiffer. The suspension from a performance aspect is crappier. The front & rear swaybars were weakened, as well as the strut dampening rates decreased about 15% off-hand.
Doesn't matter. All of that stuff is easily curable with new parts needed for maintenance anyways either way go you.

The previous generation has varriable steering, but I'm not sure, what, or if it was changed for gen4. It varries with speed.




PhoenixVII - The v6's depend on what you're doing & how it's done.Assuming a perfect tune, and water injection:
MZ's are OK on the tiny TRD supercharger with a perfect tune & water injection out around 280-320hp. On a turbo/cent blower they'll see out 350-maybe 375hp.
Tony Leung's '94 1mz-fe Camry has been shooting for a 700bhp daily driver. Last I remember he was around 600bhp.
The 3vz-fe/5vz-fe's are good for 450-550 on a turbo. Unknown on a TRD blower as only two have been modified to fit. TRD blower would only theoretically make around 320-350bhp anyways. There have been a pair of 850whp 5vz-fe 4runners, and 400-500whp blown 5vz-fe's.
The GR's are unknown at this point in time. I would suspect the 350-450bhp range, but I also highly suspect that the new blocks are weak.

VZ's are iron block. Which is why a Manual 1mz-fe weighs 350-359lbs, and the manual 3vz-fe's weighed right at 20% more.







I never really cared for the Civicy'ish cars. I have a hatch btw.
Basically. They're too slow for me. You can spend alot of money rebuilding N/A B engines to be fast, but that's no different than any other engine. The home made turbo movement on Honda's is huge. If someone's blown in a Civic, watch out if they can get the power down because some of those things only weigh 2200-2400lbs curb weights.



AFA Torque, all Toyota v6's produced to date can make 95% of their peak torque at 2500rpm. The pair of 3.0L engines from the timeframe you're talking about can make 100% @ 2500rpm, and >85% from 1500rpm (which is technically the set high idle speeds.)

AzNMpower

My '96 ES300 gets really good gas mileage even at its age. I actually seem to match the advertised 20/29mpg on a frequent basis, and my range in mostly city (75% city, 25% hwy) is about 320 miles. I'll try to keep track of my current tank's Avg. consumption when I fill up next time. The chunky torque does help....my revs rarely exceed 2500rpm in normal driving. And the car is garaged, so it doesn't suffer through 5F nights.

Of course, I'm not a leadfoot most of the time. Most of the time.

Pheonix

^ still got 3 3/4 gallons in the tank too if it's 75% 20/29, 320m a tank.

AzNMpower

I've never run it down to the very last drop. I have a feeling that the needle has to go below the very last "E" line, and the manual says the engine light will come on before you absolutely, positively must fill up. I've driven the car around town for two days with the low level light on before..........

I'll verify this when I run the tank down to about empty. It's half a tank now and since I reset trip A at every fillup, it's reading 147.4mi at half a tank of gas. Thesedays it's been cold and I've been only driving to school and work.

Choas

Wow Pheonix and PheonixVII i know my cars but that whole motor just blew me away . Know i know who to im when i'm gonna do any motor stuff. But yea i aveage about 24.5 mpg mostly highway and some city driving. Thats with one of those air spinniny things that is supposed to help. I also did some seafoam my last oil change i got about 2 more mpg after that.

PhoenixVII

Phoenix: Again, thanks for the info. The V6 world is something I was going to skip (from I4 to V8 lol...) and I don't know much about the ES, thanks!

So, back more toward the point of this thread...I could see 27-28mpg in this car? That's all I am hoping for, or need to know. That'd be mostly HWY of course. That's all I really do!

Pheonix

27-28 yeah.
I think I use to get about 26-27 on the highway mostly driving 80-90mph. Never 70...