2017 Lexus CT200H - To HID kit or not.
09-09-17, 04:09 AM
#16
So we need this relay harness because?
you said something about the factory wires can't handle the hid ballast?
Does that mean you are saying hid draws more current that halogen bulbs? If that is the case why would we want to use this? Wouldn't drawing more power make the car want to keep the engine on to generate electricity?
Why do my hid from the retrofit source, don't need a relay pack? I had four hid ballasts installed before I went to led.
Now I went led on the right side and hid on left side for the last 5 months to test what I liked better.
Led fire on 1000 times faster, no warm up delay. No relay no flickering, no problems whatever.
you said something about the factory wires can't handle the hid ballast?
Does that mean you are saying hid draws more current that halogen bulbs? If that is the case why would we want to use this? Wouldn't drawing more power make the car want to keep the engine on to generate electricity?
Why do my hid from the retrofit source, don't need a relay pack? I had four hid ballasts installed before I went to led.
Now I went led on the right side and hid on left side for the last 5 months to test what I liked better.
Led fire on 1000 times faster, no warm up delay. No relay no flickering, no problems whatever.
09-09-17, 04:19 AM
#17
Driver School Candidate
So we need this relay harness because?
you said something about the factory wires can't handle the hid ballast?
Does that mean you are saying hid draws more current that halogen bulbs? If that is the case why would we want to use this? Wouldn't drawing more power make the car want to keep the engine on to generate electricity?
Why do my hid from the retrofit source, don't need a relay pack? I had four hid ballasts installed before I went to led.
Now I went led on the right side and hid on left side for the last 5 months to test what I liked better.
Led fire on 1000 times faster, no warm up delay. No relay no flickering, no problems whatever.
you said something about the factory wires can't handle the hid ballast?
Does that mean you are saying hid draws more current that halogen bulbs? If that is the case why would we want to use this? Wouldn't drawing more power make the car want to keep the engine on to generate electricity?
Why do my hid from the retrofit source, don't need a relay pack? I had four hid ballasts installed before I went to led.
Now I went led on the right side and hid on left side for the last 5 months to test what I liked better.
Led fire on 1000 times faster, no warm up delay. No relay no flickering, no problems whatever.
Do they draw more power than stock bulbs? No. They draw ~42W, which equates to the 35W output (hence 35W HIDs). Stock bulbs draw 55W. However, initial current draw for a few seconds can get up to 150W with some OEM ballasts.
The Retrofit Source ballasts are not of great quality honestly. Nonetheless, I'd recommend relays anyway. Just because they fire properly doesn't mean that the stress on the wiring isn't there. But due to TRS ballasts taking an eternity to warm up, their initial current draw is likely low.
LEDs perform terribly in projectors, I've never seen a single LED that performed well in a projector. I can nearly guarantee your LEDs aren't performing well. Usually the hotspot is entirely gone, rendering your distance vision gone. I'd love to be proven wrong though. Can you post an output pic of your LEDs? Against a flat wall, 15-25 feet away. Similar to the photos in my review.
09-09-17, 04:43 AM
#18
I wasn't trying to review anything nor take photos to compare anything.
I'm going to simply go about this with logic. Like Spock.
Not trying to be right or wrong.
So what doesn't make sense to me.
Let's go about this one at a time.
You say hid require more power to fire on, correct? Wouldn't it be more logical to install hid ballasts that have a lower current requirement to turn on?
Would it not be logical to say, the hid in question doesn't turn on to the current power being supplied to the hid? Instead of needing to up the current with a relay. A full size relay only needs 100ma to turn energize the coil. Micro relays need even less.
What also doesn't make sense. If, TRS kits are junk, why would these kits not require the relay harness. Would that not make them better?
I'm going to simply go about this with logic. Like Spock.
Not trying to be right or wrong.
So what doesn't make sense to me.
Let's go about this one at a time.
You say hid require more power to fire on, correct? Wouldn't it be more logical to install hid ballasts that have a lower current requirement to turn on?
Would it not be logical to say, the hid in question doesn't turn on to the current power being supplied to the hid? Instead of needing to up the current with a relay. A full size relay only needs 100ma to turn energize the coil. Micro relays need even less.
What also doesn't make sense. If, TRS kits are junk, why would these kits not require the relay harness. Would that not make them better?
09-09-17, 04:55 AM
#19
Driver School Candidate
I wasn't trying to review anything nor take photos to compare anything.
I'm going to simply go about this with logic. Like Spock.
Not trying to be right or wrong.
So what doesn't make sense to me.
Let's go about this one at a time.
You say hid require more power to fire on, correct? Wouldn't it be more logical to install hid ballasts that have a lower current requirement to turn on?
Would it not be logical to say, the hid in question doesn't turn on to the current power being supplied to the hid? Instead of needing to up the current with a relay. A full size relay only needs 100ma to turn energize the coil. Micro relays need even less.
What also doesn't make sense. If, TRS kits are junk, why would these kits not require the relay harness. Would that not make them better?
I'm going to simply go about this with logic. Like Spock.
Not trying to be right or wrong.
So what doesn't make sense to me.
Let's go about this one at a time.
You say hid require more power to fire on, correct? Wouldn't it be more logical to install hid ballasts that have a lower current requirement to turn on?
Would it not be logical to say, the hid in question doesn't turn on to the current power being supplied to the hid? Instead of needing to up the current with a relay. A full size relay only needs 100ma to turn energize the coil. Micro relays need even less.
What also doesn't make sense. If, TRS kits are junk, why would these kits not require the relay harness. Would that not make them better?
I never said TRS kits are junk. I simply do not think their ballasts are quality products. Not a very low failure rate, slow startup, and overinflated price considering the internals (which my favorite lighting community has identified).
Let's look at it this way. Every OEM HID ballast, from Denso (Lexus, Toyota, Subaru) to Hella (BMW, Mercedes, Volkswagen) to Valeo (Chevy, Cadillac, Ford) have high current startups. Every industrial application of the Xenon arc lamp has high current startups. It's the best way to start an HID bulb. I can't claim to know why. But every application does it... Except cheap aftermarket automotive ballasts. And the best ones like Hylux do it. It's just the nature of HID technology, much like PWM is the nature of LED tech. Can LED be done without PWM? Yes but that's the most reliable way of doing it.
As for relay harnesses, they're recommended for any higher power application. Hell, many people install them on cars for better performance out of halogen bulbs. The more voltage you supply to a halogen bulb, the brighter it becomes (this is not a linear relationship). Stock thin wiring causes a voltage drop, so installing a high gauge relay harness can improve stock headlight performance, especially on older cars.
As for the CT, here's the odd part. The stock wiring on my 2000 Toyota MR2 fired OEM ballasts with ease. The CT didn't want to with the engine off. It does seem like the stock wiring is simply not great. Why risk overloading the wiring, melting of the expensive harness, or even fire when quality ballasts and a relay harness eliminate this risk? Yes cheap ballasts can catch fire.
Last edited by Halorulr64; 09-09-17 at 04:58 AM.
09-09-17, 05:09 AM
#20
Veering way off right now.
I am reading a lot of opinion and some factual information.
We are addressing the need for relays. Once we can address the logical need for them then we can move on to the other issues.
You mentioned halogen bulbs getting better performance with higher voltage. I agree with that logic. Do not know how it applies to this situation where the voltage will never increase. It will always be 12.1 to 12.6 at rest and 13.5-14.3 when the vehicle is on.
I am reading a lot of opinion and some factual information.
We are addressing the need for relays. Once we can address the logical need for them then we can move on to the other issues.
You mentioned halogen bulbs getting better performance with higher voltage. I agree with that logic. Do not know how it applies to this situation where the voltage will never increase. It will always be 12.1 to 12.6 at rest and 13.5-14.3 when the vehicle is on.
09-09-17, 05:18 AM
#21
Driver School Candidate
Veering way off right now.
I am reading a lot of opinion and some factual information.
We are addressing the need for relays. Once we can address the logical need for them then we can move on to the other issues.
You mentioned halogen bulbs getting better performance with higher voltage. I agree with that logic. Do not know how it applies to this situation where the voltage will never increase. It will always be 12.1 to 12.6 at rest and 13.5-14.3 when the vehicle is on.
I am reading a lot of opinion and some factual information.
We are addressing the need for relays. Once we can address the logical need for them then we can move on to the other issues.
You mentioned halogen bulbs getting better performance with higher voltage. I agree with that logic. Do not know how it applies to this situation where the voltage will never increase. It will always be 12.1 to 12.6 at rest and 13.5-14.3 when the vehicle is on.
Your point on the halogen bulbs is untrue. At the plug, you won't be seeing alternator voltage. Due to the thin wire, you'll see a lower voltage due to voltage drop. Voltage drop occurs due to the impedance of thinner wiring, more prevalent on older cars though not limited to them. Hence a relay harness with thicker wiring supplying direct battery voltage is an improvement.
09-09-17, 05:48 AM
#22
Alright, now we getting somewhere.
Fact or opinion?
Quality ballast needs a larga amount of current to start.
There is half truth and half false.
Lets start with the Quality part. Thats all subjective to who sells you it. Its mostly opinion based. so half truth.
Larger amount of current to start up. Actually not true. the car actually needs to see the proper resistance on that circuit to send power about 5ohms
If it needed more current to start up, there would be no need for capacitors inside the ballast.
That being said, its the cheaper ones that need a external relay pack.
full size ballasts (55w) usually have the proper resistor internally to show the car there is a good bulb connected, not a blown one.
Examples of this in the real world:
All current model mercedes will have a bulb out indicator.
Ever wonder how the car knows that? it senses resistance on that headlight circuit. Zero resistance = open circuit = blown bulb. Yes its that simple..
This conversation is never intended to be a argument just a discussion on where opinions and reading on the internet can be misleading.
heres a good writeup on the topic.
https://hypertextbook.com/facts/2005/YatManTsui.shtml
Fact or opinion?
Quality ballast needs a larga amount of current to start.
There is half truth and half false.
Lets start with the Quality part. Thats all subjective to who sells you it. Its mostly opinion based. so half truth.
Larger amount of current to start up. Actually not true. the car actually needs to see the proper resistance on that circuit to send power about 5ohms
If it needed more current to start up, there would be no need for capacitors inside the ballast.
That being said, its the cheaper ones that need a external relay pack.
full size ballasts (55w) usually have the proper resistor internally to show the car there is a good bulb connected, not a blown one.
Examples of this in the real world:
All current model mercedes will have a bulb out indicator.
Ever wonder how the car knows that? it senses resistance on that headlight circuit. Zero resistance = open circuit = blown bulb. Yes its that simple..
This conversation is never intended to be a argument just a discussion on where opinions and reading on the internet can be misleading.
heres a good writeup on the topic.
https://hypertextbook.com/facts/2005/YatManTsui.shtml
09-09-17, 04:42 PM
#23
Driver School Candidate
Quality is not necessarily subjective. It can be tested for. We've done this testing. We've proven how garbage most ballasts are at HID Planet. I'd link it but Photobucket took everything with it. But we showed that stuff like Kensun causes the bulb to output a mere fraction of the lux a proper ballast will (like OEM or Morimoto). As far as who sells it, no one educated in this field looks at brand name. We look at internals. Hence why headlight enthusiasts don't fanboy over Morimoto parts like everyone else does. Because we know that inside is a cheap EKLight circuit board and you can pick up a similar EK ballast for $15. We don't trust Diode Dynamics or Xenon Depot because of the name, we trust them because they sell good products. I personally tested the XD HID bulbs because I did not trust XD, and not only did a lux meter prove they're superior to other bulbs, but the construction proved that they're actually using UV blocking Philips quartz glass which is very important for the longevity of a projector. As far as their ballasts, I know what brand the ballast really is and it's a trusted brand. I never take anything at face value.
You're using logic without proper knowledge.That 150W figure was tested on a power supply firing a Matsu****a OEM ballast.
Cheap ballasts are less likely to need relays because they draw less at startup. Relays are used to combat high startup requirements.
55W ballasts shouldn't be used in halogen projectors at all. Hell, they shouldn't be used in aftermarket HID projectors. Time and time again they've ruined the VDA coating on the inside.
Yes, most cars have bulb out warnings. A relay will never fix that, because you replace a 35W source with a relay that needs almost no power to be energized. To combat bulb out lights, you generally use resistors. This is entirely unrelated to what we're talking about, especially since Lexus doesn't utilize the CANBUS system that's generally used for such things.
Your link already shows flawed information. "D1 and D2 type lamps are 35 watt lamps" yes they are but they draw around 42W of power, due to losses inside the ballast.
You're using logic without proper knowledge.That 150W figure was tested on a power supply firing a Matsu****a OEM ballast.
Cheap ballasts are less likely to need relays because they draw less at startup. Relays are used to combat high startup requirements.
55W ballasts shouldn't be used in halogen projectors at all. Hell, they shouldn't be used in aftermarket HID projectors. Time and time again they've ruined the VDA coating on the inside.
Yes, most cars have bulb out warnings. A relay will never fix that, because you replace a 35W source with a relay that needs almost no power to be energized. To combat bulb out lights, you generally use resistors. This is entirely unrelated to what we're talking about, especially since Lexus doesn't utilize the CANBUS system that's generally used for such things.
Your link already shows flawed information. "D1 and D2 type lamps are 35 watt lamps" yes they are but they draw around 42W of power, due to losses inside the ballast.
09-09-17, 05:20 PM
#24
All that and you reiterated the fact that Quality is subjective. its subjective to the person reviewing it.
Morimoto is a registered trademark in USA to TRS. When you refer to that name you are referencing TRS.
You know you can go to china and have 10000 pieces made to your spec and order different quality grades wight?
each grade has a different level of DOA.
You know 150w is only 12.5amps right?
Your headlights are on a 15amp fuse right?
You do know how to calculate watts/volts = amps right?
Its not voltage or watts that creates the heat its the amperage going thru it.
We veering off topic again.
I installed my first set of HID in 1998. Since then i must have installed several thousand sets. Made custom mounts, in reverse lights, modified 9006 to 9005, 9003 into 4.
I used to be able to look at a car and say that takes xxx bulb in the lows and xxx in the fogs and required canbus adapters.
So when you mention relays, my experience has been. Relays = cheap.
i used relays way back in the beginning when I first did a 2005 grand cherokee did tknow about canbus then.
Used 5ohm 50w load resistors but those things got hot.
Morimoto is a registered trademark in USA to TRS. When you refer to that name you are referencing TRS.
You know you can go to china and have 10000 pieces made to your spec and order different quality grades wight?
each grade has a different level of DOA.
You know 150w is only 12.5amps right?
Your headlights are on a 15amp fuse right?
You do know how to calculate watts/volts = amps right?
Its not voltage or watts that creates the heat its the amperage going thru it.
We veering off topic again.
I installed my first set of HID in 1998. Since then i must have installed several thousand sets. Made custom mounts, in reverse lights, modified 9006 to 9005, 9003 into 4.
I used to be able to look at a car and say that takes xxx bulb in the lows and xxx in the fogs and required canbus adapters.
So when you mention relays, my experience has been. Relays = cheap.
i used relays way back in the beginning when I first did a 2005 grand cherokee did tknow about canbus then.
Used 5ohm 50w load resistors but those things got hot.
09-09-17, 05:30 PM
#25
Driver School Candidate
I think you misunderstand how "subjective" hard data is. You ignored every point I made, brushing it off as subjective without actually replying it it.
Legally Morimoto and TRS are separate entities. They like to emphasize this.
I am well aware. I am part of a community of professional headlight retrofitters. Failure rates on Morimoto ballasts are far from low. I am not one to think that Chinese stuff is of low quality, I simply know Morimoto ballasts are not of high quality.
What's your point? You're nearly tripling the current running through thin wires designed for the 5A of a regular halogen bulb. No, wiring in cars don't have overhead. If Lexus can save 50 cents per car on thinner wiring, that ends up being a savings of $165,000 in 2016. Every corner is cut within safe levels. I'm very tempted to prove this with a halogen bulb powered by stock wiring and then by a relay harness using my lux meter. I know this is true because I installed a harness on a 2001 RX 300 with halogen bulbs and they got brighter.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with your thinking of relays being cheap. Relays have nothing to do with CANBUS. Relays are not car specific. Relays do not make up for a flaw in a product. Relays are not even directly related to HID. And your insistence that you've been using HID for so long doesn't put you in a positive light, considering PNP HID is usually a big downgrade in lighting, especially in reflectors. It's plain dangerous.
Legally Morimoto and TRS are separate entities. They like to emphasize this.
I am well aware. I am part of a community of professional headlight retrofitters. Failure rates on Morimoto ballasts are far from low. I am not one to think that Chinese stuff is of low quality, I simply know Morimoto ballasts are not of high quality.
What's your point? You're nearly tripling the current running through thin wires designed for the 5A of a regular halogen bulb. No, wiring in cars don't have overhead. If Lexus can save 50 cents per car on thinner wiring, that ends up being a savings of $165,000 in 2016. Every corner is cut within safe levels. I'm very tempted to prove this with a halogen bulb powered by stock wiring and then by a relay harness using my lux meter. I know this is true because I installed a harness on a 2001 RX 300 with halogen bulbs and they got brighter.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with your thinking of relays being cheap. Relays have nothing to do with CANBUS. Relays are not car specific. Relays do not make up for a flaw in a product. Relays are not even directly related to HID. And your insistence that you've been using HID for so long doesn't put you in a positive light, considering PNP HID is usually a big downgrade in lighting, especially in reflectors. It's plain dangerous.
09-09-17, 06:21 PM
#26
Really TRS and morimoto is separate? When I was at the warehouse a few weeks ago the plaques are on the wall right when you walk in of the right. A few of them actually.
Well you know your stuff, I'm done.
Well you know your stuff, I'm done.
09-09-17, 06:39 PM
#27
Driver School Candidate
Feel free to ask them if TRS owns Morimoto. They keep them separate for legal reasons, and TRS is only a Morimoto dealer technically. Even though really, they're owned by the same guy.
Last edited by Halorulr64; 09-09-17 at 06:58 PM.
09-11-17, 07:15 PM
#28
Pole Position
Just get GOOD aftermarket LED bulbs!!! Easy!!!
We need the relay because initial draw of quality HID ballasts is high. It's better to use a relay harness than use the thin stock wiring.
Do they draw more power than stock bulbs? No. They draw ~42W, which equates to the 35W output (hence 35W HIDs). Stock bulbs draw 55W. However, initial current draw for a few seconds can get up to 150W with some OEM ballasts.
The Retrofit Source ballasts are not of great quality honestly. Nonetheless, I'd recommend relays anyway. Just because they fire properly doesn't mean that the stress on the wiring isn't there. But due to TRS ballasts taking an eternity to warm up, their initial current draw is likely low.
LEDs perform terribly in projectors, I've never seen a single LED that performed well in a projector. I can nearly guarantee your LEDs aren't performing well. Usually the hotspot is entirely gone, rendering your distance vision gone. I'd love to be proven wrong though. Can you post an output pic of your LEDs? Against a flat wall, 15-25 feet away. Similar to the photos in my review.
Do they draw more power than stock bulbs? No. They draw ~42W, which equates to the 35W output (hence 35W HIDs). Stock bulbs draw 55W. However, initial current draw for a few seconds can get up to 150W with some OEM ballasts.
The Retrofit Source ballasts are not of great quality honestly. Nonetheless, I'd recommend relays anyway. Just because they fire properly doesn't mean that the stress on the wiring isn't there. But due to TRS ballasts taking an eternity to warm up, their initial current draw is likely low.
LEDs perform terribly in projectors, I've never seen a single LED that performed well in a projector. I can nearly guarantee your LEDs aren't performing well. Usually the hotspot is entirely gone, rendering your distance vision gone. I'd love to be proven wrong though. Can you post an output pic of your LEDs? Against a flat wall, 15-25 feet away. Similar to the photos in my review.
09-11-17, 10:15 PM
#29
Driver School Candidate
09-12-17, 09:58 PM
#30
Instructor
So we need this relay harness because?
you said something about the factory wires can't handle the hid ballast?
Does that mean you are saying hid draws more current that halogen bulbs? If that is the case why would we want to use this? Wouldn't drawing more power make the car want to keep the engine on to generate electricity?
Why do my hid from the retrofit source, don't need a relay pack? I had four hid ballasts installed before I went to led.
Now I went led on the right side and hid on left side for the last 5 months to test what I liked better.
Led fire on 1000 times faster, no warm up delay. No relay no flickering, no problems whatever.
you said something about the factory wires can't handle the hid ballast?
Does that mean you are saying hid draws more current that halogen bulbs? If that is the case why would we want to use this? Wouldn't drawing more power make the car want to keep the engine on to generate electricity?
Why do my hid from the retrofit source, don't need a relay pack? I had four hid ballasts installed before I went to led.
Now I went led on the right side and hid on left side for the last 5 months to test what I liked better.
Led fire on 1000 times faster, no warm up delay. No relay no flickering, no problems whatever.
I installed an H.I.D. kit on my 2012 CT200h WITHOUT a relay and when using the Auto feature, sometimes (not all the time), only one H.I.D. bulb would turn on. But if I turn it off and back on, both H.I.D. bulbs will turn on. After noticing that, I stopped using the Auto feature, which wasn't a big deal for me.
I also have an LED setup (Xenon Depot) on a 2016 RAV4 and on my 2017 IS200T (Factory setup) and yes you are right, there is no flickering and no warm up delay.
However on the RAV4 it has been a bit over a year and they are not as bright as they used to be. Hopefully this isn't the case for everyone.