Maybe so, maybe not, I owned a '13 GS F Sport I wanted something faster and went Corvette, then I wanted something easier so I went ES. Now I need to find something in the middle of it all! IS 500 or CT4 Blackwing are on the top of the list

 

totally understand your pov!

i had a gs, then went suv's for a while, added a miata for fun for a couple of years, tried a big sedan, but suv too useful to me, so now have the ute and the LC for fun.

 

Yawn, is my reaction to your reaction. If you're so bored by the ES, why even participate in the thread?

I'm an "older adult" and in the market for a new car for my wife. The ES and the Model 3 are both on my short list. Let me guess...you wouldn't want us to go with the Tesla because "geriatric" buyers might diminish the perception of the brand?

 

I also find the negative reaction to this car odd. To me, the ES is what it is...its not apologetic, it doesn't take a derivative FWD chassis and pretend its some incredible sport sedan, like say an Acura TLX. Would I buy one today? No. But there was obviously a time in my life when I wanted a big Lexus and my budget was ES money, and I was sure happy the ES existed and bought 2 of them over 7 years. The ES is a HUGE part of why Lexus is successful, and personally I'm happy Lexus has more or less stuck to their mission with the ES vs what they did with the LS.

 

Part of the disappointment with the ES is that ever since the GS was axed, Lexus has done absolutely nothing to bring the ES more upmarket to somewhat take the GS's place. The bare minimum would have been adding AWD to the V6.

 

I bought two ES350's back to back. A new gen '07 and a refreshed '10. The 2010 was a much better car in a number of small ways that added up to something overall more satisfying. I moved on to an Audi Q5 and A6 when the new styling (grill) didn't appeal to either my wife or me. As mentioned, kudos to Lexus for understanding what appeals to the target market for the ES. With new generations they tried to lower the average age of ES buyers with limited success. It doesn't bother me at all when the ES is referred to an old peoples car (or similar references) it's true and I can easily see why it appeals to an older crowd. You have to be of a certain age to understand.

 

I don't agree with that. I think the current ES is the most upmarket ES they've ever made. its not a GS...but its the most solid, best equipped, best driving ES they've ever made.

I do agree AWD with the V6 is a no brainer.

 

It's more upmarket in its material choice and interior design, but with non-luxury brands upping the game in that regard too and at times offering superior driving dynamics like in the Accord, the ES's relative position compared to them is the same as it was since its debut in the 90s. Mechanically, it hasn't moved upmarket at all. Still a 100% steel platform and suspension setup with struts at the front. The brunt of the GS's platform and suspension was aluminum and it used double wishbones up front.

I don't think the ES needs to be more sporty, but if it wants to truly take over after the GS and go toe-to-toe with the Germans, it has a lot of catching up to do.

 

I don’t think it wants to take over for the GS or go toe to toe with the Germans. And the steel construction etc is a part of holding its price point. You add in more exotic materials and it’s going to be a lot more expensive.

When I was an ES buyer I wanted a full sized nice riding Lexus experience for an entry level price and the ES delivers that in spades.

 

I couldn't care less what you think about my reaction to the ES. My reaction is to the car, not you and a bunch of folks that think my comments (yawn) are directed personally at folks on here. Get your panties out of a bunch and relax.

I'm almost a "geriatric" and am pretty sure I'm older than most on this thread and because you don't know anything about me again feel it's a personal attack.

Whether you buy a Tesla or not doesn't matter to me as you seem to want to make this personal and think I'll have some opinion about you personally wanting one.

 

Exactly. And that's why it's not moving upmarket. Moving upmarket means it would have to move up in price. And with the GS gone, that gives Lexus more freedom to increase the exotic material usage and advance the design of the suspension/platform, or at the very least give it a proper AWD system.

What's worth mentioning is that the Avalon has also crept up in price and now closer to the ES than it ever was- you can get an Avalon fully loaded for $47K, and an ES for $55K. With a price gap of less than $10K on cars straddling the $50K mark, people would swarm to the ES over the Avalon, and that shows in just how low Avalon sales have gotten when in the past it was neck-to-neck with the ES.

The major problem with the ES has always been its cannibalization factor. In the past, it cannibalized the GS. Ever since it's grown in size to match the Avalon, it's now cannibalizing Avalon and LS sales (not helped by the latter shrinking its cabin). It is effectively preventing other Toyota sedans (besides the Camry/Corolla) from successfully moving upmarket, not just itself.

 

I think the issue more is Lexus needs a GS replacement separately from any discussion about the ES moving upmarket.

 

Problem with any new GS would be the same problem with the outgoing GS- cannibalization from the ES, especially if it will have a smaller cabin than the ES. Lexus killed it for that very reason, alongside rising SUV sales.

The only way a GS equivalent could survive in the Lexus lineup is if it had something like an EV powertrain, which would be a huge differentiation from the ES and something many would gladly pay a premium for.

 

Looking back at that generation. I think it ages quite well. I never really like it at the time but when I see them now I appreciate them. My father had a gen after yous,15 Es, he really disliked it.

I think the real success for the ES is in world markets such as China or other parts of Asia. On North America, the target demographic are becoming more and more limited. I also think the RX crossover makes it hard for the older demographic to really want a sedan

 

Then, why even post? You only want to communicate one way? If you're gonna throw shade, you're gonna get a reaction, as the ES is a popular car in spite of what you think of it.

You missed a great opportunity for a joke...You could have told me to "get my adult diapers out of a bunch!" Lighten up.