Toyota vs Lexus.
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Driver
Joined: Feb 2016
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From: Vienna, Austria (j/k, Rio, Brazil)
Toyota vs Lexus.
The new Toyota Mirai It was supposed to be the new Lexus GS, but instead Toyota killed the Lexus GS and wants to push the ES as its replacement and it simply won't work against the likes of BMW 5 series and Mercedes E-class. No one will give one of these cars for a Lexus version of a Camry. And to make matters worse, the Camry and the Avalon will have AWD available, while the ES will remain FWD. How unfair is that with Lexus?
And now there's a new Toyota Venza and I'm pretty sure Lexus dealers must be unbelievably pissed with Toyota, because how the F they are going to sell the RX now? A new RX is two or three years away and here it comes Toyota with a new Venza that probably is better than the current RX, while costing a lot less. It's very obviously becoming a family war and Lexus dealers will feel like Toyota is trying to screw them over, because, well, Toyota IS screwing Lexus.
We will reach a point that there's no point in buying a Lexus anymore, because it simply won't worth the extra cash.
And now there's a new Toyota Venza and I'm pretty sure Lexus dealers must be unbelievably pissed with Toyota, because how the F they are going to sell the RX now? A new RX is two or three years away and here it comes Toyota with a new Venza that probably is better than the current RX, while costing a lot less. It's very obviously becoming a family war and Lexus dealers will feel like Toyota is trying to screw them over, because, well, Toyota IS screwing Lexus.
We will reach a point that there's no point in buying a Lexus anymore, because it simply won't worth the extra cash.
Lead Lap
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,892
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From: Virginia
Venza is a good size step smaller than the RX from what I figure. So I don't know if it's "better than the current RX." Now, could it take some short term NX sales?? I think that's possible.
Automakers struggle with product cadences and balancing brands all the time.
Automakers struggle with product cadences and balancing brands all the time.
Moderator
Joined: Nov 2016
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From: GA
Makes me wonder if perhaps the new NX will have some competition from Toyota... The NX is great in a vacuum but definitely falls flat here in 2020, so I wonder what they'll do with it. Won't surprise me if it just continues to be a RAV4-based CUV.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Mar 2020
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From: N/A
A very relevant article:
https://www.autonews.com/talk-top/to...tinuing-legacy
AWD is only available in 4-cylinder models, using the same setup as the RAV-4. The sedan platform the ES/Camry/Avalon share wasn't designed for AWD with a V6. That's why the only talks of an AWD ES we hear about involve a very elaborate hybrid system with electric motors powering the rear wheels. Definitely not a GS replacement.
Toyota has had a very conservative product cadence; the Tundra is a prime example, having not been fully redesigned since 2007. Are there plans to shorten that lengthy cadence?
In the case of the Toyota lineup, right now, it's a very good cadence, with one or two new [or refreshed] models per year, and will continue. So dealers are happy, and we are confident, even if the Tundra is too far in its life cycle. We have a new one coming soon, but they are selling currently.
I have no worries about the Toyota lineup, but in the case of Lexus, the cadence is an issue. So for this year, the LC convertible is new. Profitwise, it may be OK, but in this sense, the Lexus dealer body wants to see more product sooner.
How will you change that within Lexus?
We need to change the cadence and the product and the powertrain. Cadence is a planning concept, so that's a No. 1 priority. And then product, next to the powertrain, right now is a second order.
What do you think ails Lexus? Where is the weak point? Is it something that can be fixed with product?
Yes, product and the cadence, and No. 2 is the cost competitiveness. Aggressive incentives from German brands in particular are impacting the market. So we need to change the luxury market, which has been tough for us. Customers rely on the quality of our products, but dealers have issues with cadence. I can improve product and cadence because those are in my hands. But I cannot control the market, so that's very difficult, and I don't have the right answer yet for that.
In the case of the Toyota lineup, right now, it's a very good cadence, with one or two new [or refreshed] models per year, and will continue. So dealers are happy, and we are confident, even if the Tundra is too far in its life cycle. We have a new one coming soon, but they are selling currently.
I have no worries about the Toyota lineup, but in the case of Lexus, the cadence is an issue. So for this year, the LC convertible is new. Profitwise, it may be OK, but in this sense, the Lexus dealer body wants to see more product sooner.
How will you change that within Lexus?
We need to change the cadence and the product and the powertrain. Cadence is a planning concept, so that's a No. 1 priority. And then product, next to the powertrain, right now is a second order.
What do you think ails Lexus? Where is the weak point? Is it something that can be fixed with product?
Yes, product and the cadence, and No. 2 is the cost competitiveness. Aggressive incentives from German brands in particular are impacting the market. So we need to change the luxury market, which has been tough for us. Customers rely on the quality of our products, but dealers have issues with cadence. I can improve product and cadence because those are in my hands. But I cannot control the market, so that's very difficult, and I don't have the right answer yet for that.
AWD is only available in 4-cylinder models, using the same setup as the RAV-4. The sedan platform the ES/Camry/Avalon share wasn't designed for AWD with a V6. That's why the only talks of an AWD ES we hear about involve a very elaborate hybrid system with electric motors powering the rear wheels. Definitely not a GS replacement.
Last edited by Motorola; May 27, 2020 at 08:26 AM.
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because ALL car brands are getting more 'premium' and with endless safety features standard or available on even basic cars, the luxury brands are feeling a squeeze, but particularly Lexus because it has done so LITTLE in the past decade. what it has done is expand the line-up (NX, UX) which have definitely boosted sales, replaced the LS (oh well), and replaced the ES (job well done), while letting pretty much everything else die. oh and the LC addition is awesome but six figure tight coupes no matter how good looking never sell in big numbers.
so Lexus has become less luxury and more premium (with many horribly dated vehicles), and Toyota IS getting more premium, so they do have a clash.
what we'd all like to see is huge investment and speed up of new models / refreshes on the Lexus side. will it happen? doubtful.
someone i worked for years ago said (probably politically incorrectly by today's standards) "we sell to the masses, not the classes". that's toyota's philosophy too.
so Lexus has become less luxury and more premium (with many horribly dated vehicles), and Toyota IS getting more premium, so they do have a clash.
what we'd all like to see is huge investment and speed up of new models / refreshes on the Lexus side. will it happen? doubtful.
someone i worked for years ago said (probably politically incorrectly by today's standards) "we sell to the masses, not the classes". that's toyota's philosophy too.
Lead Lap
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,593
Likes: 5
From: CA
because ALL car brands are getting more 'premium' and with endless safety features standard or available on even basic cars, the luxury brands are feeling a squeeze, but particularly Lexus because it has done so LITTLE in the past decade. what it has done is expand the line-up (NX, UX) which have definitely boosted sales, replaced the LS (oh well), and replaced the ES (job well done), while letting pretty much everything else die. oh and the LC addition is awesome but six figure tight coupes no matter how good looking never sell in big numbers.
so Lexus has become less luxury and more premium (with many horribly dated vehicles), and Toyota IS getting more premium, so they do have a clash.
what we'd all like to see is huge investment and speed up of new models / refreshes on the Lexus side. will it happen? doubtful.
someone i worked for years ago said (probably politically incorrectly by today's standards) "we sell to the masses, not the classes". that's toyota's philosophy too.
so Lexus has become less luxury and more premium (with many horribly dated vehicles), and Toyota IS getting more premium, so they do have a clash.
what we'd all like to see is huge investment and speed up of new models / refreshes on the Lexus side. will it happen? doubtful.
someone i worked for years ago said (probably politically incorrectly by today's standards) "we sell to the masses, not the classes". that's toyota's philosophy too.
On the other hand, probably a way too optimistic hand, perhaps price increases in Toyota models will push people to consider Lexus products more if those price gaps start to shrink...
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 35,441
Likes: 372
From: ON/NY
The new Toyota Mirai It was supposed to be the new Lexus GS, but instead Toyota killed the Lexus GS and wants to push the ES as its replacement and it simply won't work against the likes of BMW 5 series and Mercedes E-class. No one will give one of these cars for a Lexus version of a Camry. And to make matters worse, the Camry and the Avalon will have AWD available, while the ES will remain FWD. How unfair is that with Lexus?
And now there's a new Toyota Venza and I'm pretty sure Lexus dealers must be unbelievably pissed with Toyota, because how the F they are going to sell the RX now? A new RX is two or three years away and here it comes Toyota with a new Venza that probably is better than the current RX, while costing a lot less. It's very obviously becoming a family war and Lexus dealers will feel like Toyota is trying to screw them over, because, well, Toyota IS screwing Lexus.
We will reach a point that there's no point in buying a Lexus anymore, because it simply won't worth the extra cash.
And now there's a new Toyota Venza and I'm pretty sure Lexus dealers must be unbelievably pissed with Toyota, because how the F they are going to sell the RX now? A new RX is two or three years away and here it comes Toyota with a new Venza that probably is better than the current RX, while costing a lot less. It's very obviously becoming a family war and Lexus dealers will feel like Toyota is trying to screw them over, because, well, Toyota IS screwing Lexus.
We will reach a point that there's no point in buying a Lexus anymore, because it simply won't worth the extra cash.
Compare the positioning of Lexus to that of Cadillac with their new CT4, CT5 and Escalade which are now pretty much going to be money losing endeavours. Same with Ford and their Mach Mustang. Chevy and the Corvette.....or Genesis with their new G80 and GV which will never ever get off the ground
Toyota was in the same situation in 07 when they spend billions on the Tundra only to see the 08/09 recession destroy their ambitions (at one time Tundra was built in not one but two different plants in the US)....THIS error would not happen again.circling back to Lexus, the LC convertible is in a tough place for the brand....very likely it will not sell well. UX, NX and RX will very likely be the future for Lexus for the next year or two. More and more consumers will shift to Toyota for a little while and as things improve, we should see more Lexus offerings....and I think NX and RX are due for new models around 2022, right about the time the US economy begins to do really well again.
Lastly, it takes incredible foresight and courage to cancel out future model expenditures such as IS, GS or GX and LX as well as Toyota Land Cruiser....in addition to delaying upgrades to Tacoma, 4Runner etc.
I wlll even say that right now (because of the pandemic), I would bet money on the idea that Prius is in its final standalone model. And the LS Lexus might never see a new redesign......Mary Barra’s decisions to cancel Impala, XTS, Lacrosse and close plants looks like shinning stars in the night sky right about now...I would expect Toyota to cancel some models as well.
Now...post pandemic..in hindsight...where the vision is closer to 20/20....Toyota lost HUGE $$$ with the delay of the 2020 Olympics....just think at how much money Toyota could be losing right about now if there were new IS, GS and GX and LX as well as 4Runner, Sequoia and Land Cruiser all in their 1st or 2nd model years right about now.....
Happy to here your thoughts on my perspective
Last edited by Toys4RJill; May 31, 2020 at 11:13 AM.
Intermediate
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 380
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From: NJ
Am not sure if their reputation is getting weak it’s more like the competition is catching up and they aren’t moving fast enough. Having said that these cycles are normal in the auto industry am sure Toyota is aware of it