not to mention the people and cargo space efficiency, and the fuel efficiency, and...

 

A 4Runner has vastly superior cargo capacity than a Highlander. It is RWD based if that matters. It does not rely on electronic 4WD to engage 4x4. You can get a 4Runner with 5 seats and a two-tier loading shelf in the rear. You get a real full-size tire. Also there is a roll down window for long items. My 4Runner has an air suspension in the rear. A 4Runner will also two superior as well compared to the Toyota Highlander.

 

^^^Correct. The Suburban nameplate dates from 1936.

I tend to agree with AJT (and Jill's correct that he did not use the term "Absurd"). For towing and passenger-hauling purposes, hauling, the BOF layout is a strong selling point for many Ford and GM full-size SUV-buyers. I may be wrong, but I don't know of any crossover/unibody vehicles in the American market that can carry up to 9 people and/or tow a significant-size boat or trailer...though some that may have been compromised by the shift to IRS from a live axle.

Having said that, though, Steve is correct that crossovers usually are a little more comfortable, although a large softly-spring BOF SUV can be surprisingly cushy. I remember the first time I tried out the then-new Ford Expedition EL and its IRS, I was surprised at how comfortable it rode.

And crossovers can also be uncomfortable as well. Some the relatively short-wheelbase ones, particularly with a high enter of gravity, tend to "porpoise" at lower speeds.....which is a rocking-horse-motion back and forth. Modern classis-engineering has eliminated a lot of it, but some vehicles still show a trace of it.

 

Not really. The 2019 Highlander has 83.7 cu/ft with all rows down, 42.3 cu/ft with the second row up, and 13.8 with the third row up. 4 Runner has 88.8 Cu/ft with all rows down, 46.3 cu/ft with the second row up and 9.0 cu/ft with the third row up. The 4 Runner is also taller and higher off the ground which makes loading and unloading the Highlander easier.

Nobody is disputing that the 4 Runner is better offroad, but the Highlander is much more comfortable for hauling people and stuff which is what most people do. Highlander feels much roomier inside.

 

What is your point??? Did I ever say people don't like crossovers and don't buy them???

No, you can't seem to accept the fact that I have an opinion that differs from yours and buyers of crossovers. Regardless, yeah 100k Tahoes sold a year, and there are 3 more GM offerings. The GX everyone hates on has sold between 20 and 30k yearly units since its inception. Those are solid numbers for the GX. Clearly us truck people aren't crazy, and there are others like us out there believe it or not. Because you don't like the way they drive means diddly squat to us.

Yes, they're capable, but RRs are junky, unreliable vehicles. Line up a BOF Land Cruiser and a RR to any serious, serious off roader who goes deep into the jungles and deserts and guess which one I bet you a million bucks he/she would pick.

Off the top of my head you could travel at much higher speeds over rougher terrain.

What are you trying to prove here? Nobody disputed that. However I will point out that there are so many "SUVs" out there from teeny things all the way up to large vehicles like the X7 so, of course sales numbers will be higher. Also, the 22 year old college grad probably doesn't need nor want a Z71 Tahoe when she could get an RX or something. That's okay. But see, there are people like me that do want a Tahoe. And 99,999 more people roughly each year.

No, you just like to argue too much with people who disagree with you. All I have really said is that there are lots of truck lovers out there, I don't see why you can't accept that fact. Big BOF SUVs will sell well until the end of time.

Good--I would choose the BOF one.

 

Almost all body on frame

Source

Top 10 resale values:The vehicles are:

1. Toyota Tacoma
2. Toyota Tundra
3. Toyota 4Runner
4. Jeep Wrangler
5. GMC Sierra
6. Chevrolet Silverado
7. Ford F-Series
8. Chevrolet Colorado
9. Honda Ridgeline
10. Subaru WRX

There is nothing wrong with that

 

Our opinions don't matter, thats the point. What matters is what sales performance and manufacturer direction shows us consumers want. Overwhelmingly it shows us a shift away from BOF SUVs and towards unibody SUVs.

As for the GX, unibody 3 luxury vehicles in the same segment are selling twice that many vehicles, and as has been discussed before the GX is heavily subsidized and leases very cheap. How many of those buyers and more would purchase a similarly priced 3 row Lexus crossover with good room on a great GA-L RWD based platform? I bet you would keep 90% of those buyers and add an extra 20k sales a year.

Whens the last time you went deep into a jungle or a desert? Unreliable sure, but not junky. Range Rover is making some of the nicest vehicles on the road right now.

How do you know that? Have you tried that in a unibody SUV that is designed for offroad use like a GC? And where in the US are you traveling at high speed over rough terrain? Offroading is a low speed endeavor. Do you think you could go faster on rough terrain in a unibody Hummer?

You didn't buy a new Tahoe though. We've had this argument before. We're talking about new vehicle consumers here. The vast, vast majority of new SUV buyers don't use 10% of their vehicle's capability, and they're not buying $60-70k Tahoes and taking them offroad.

As for Tahoe buyers, you're assuming all of those buyers bought a Tahoe because it was BOF, and would not buy one if it were unibody.

But they don't sell anywhere near as well as they did a few years ago already... for instance they sell about half as many Tahoes today as they did 15 years ago. They sold 80,000 of them last year, 2005 they sold about 160,000. Suburban sold about 90,000 in 2005, just 40,000 last year.

Where are those buyers going?

Of course there are truck lovers, truck lovers however are not the majority of US SUV buyers clearly.

 

You haven’t really thought things from the whole picture. There are a lot of body on frame truck sales. Trucks are cheaper to get into compared to a body on frame suv. F series has almost set a record for their best selling year. Tundra, Tacoma and 4Runner sell well. Dodge Ram is selling their best ever sales numbers. Not everyone will go to a crossover. I read that full size luxury trucks are now the new luxury large size sedan.

I do get the point you are trying to make, but you fail to recognize how satisfying a body on frame vehicle can be (more specifically a Toyota BOF model). I would say Toyota/Lexus probably sells close to 1.5 million body on frame trucks/suvs worldwide.

 

What's all this to ya? Am I not allowed to admire the sheer capability of these vehicles even if you don't like the way they drive? Half the reason we want a GX or LX next is because they are indestructible. Remember, we keep cars for YEARS. Not everyone leases or buys a new car every 3 years.

Yes but plenty will still buy them, regardless. Why does that seem to bother you--I really don't get it?

Although by far the most popular vehicles sold in the United States are 1500 pickup trucks, I don't consciously remember necessarily arguing against the bolded, which is why this and other BOF hate-on threads are fruitless. It's the unibody people who get so defensive when the BOF people casually point out advantages to that design that, believe it or not, some people desire.

Just talk to your friend who traded his luxury sedan GS in for a Ram who said he loves it. I don't know what a "vanity thing" means when you described why he likes it, but it sounds like he gets what I'm talking about.

Plan to see plenty of Tahoe/Sub/Yukon/Escalade sales until GM stops making 1500s.

This is almost like politics.

 

This is why IMO Toyota or Lexus body on frame models are so desirable. No so much the Sequoia tho.

​​​​​​Leasing a Toyota or Lexus body on frame model makes no sense. They make sense when you buy them a keep em for the very long haul.

 

Yep.

​​​​​​And yep. Buying a new Lexus to me is pointless when you can let the original owner take the depreciation hit and still have a vehicle that has a tremendously long life left.

I bought my LS430 in 2012 when it was 8 years old, lol. Still drives exact same as then, perfectly, and we're now to 2020.

But whatever, people can do whatever they want to do. Everyone is different.

 

The Toyota Land Cruiser Tops The List For New Cars Kept The Longest

n an era where we lease cars for just a year or two at a time and ride-share with complete strangers on a daily basis, it’s becoming increasingly rare to hear about long-term car ownership. Of course, there will always be the investment-type classic cars people hold on to for decades, but what about new cars that have life cycles rapidly becoming more akin to that of smartphones? How long do new car owners actually hold onto their automobiles before trading them in or selling them? The website iSeeCars.com analyzed over 5 million cars sold by their original owners between January 2014 and December 2018 to determine exactly that.

The study found 8.4 years to be the average length of ownership across all the cars surveyed and the top ten is almost evenly split between sports cars and SUVs. "While the average new car buyer holds onto their car for 8.4 years, there is a wide variety of cars that owners are more likely to keep longer,” said iSeeCars.com CEO Phong Ly. Below, you can find the top five longest kept cars along with the full list of the top ten further down. There’s a more in-depth look at the study over on iSeeCars.com.

Average Length Of Ownership: 11.4 years

Toyota earns a few spots in the top ten, but the Toyota Land Cruiser claims the number one slot. Toyota’s reputation for reliability and durability surely played a part in helping the Land Cruiser top the list. However, the current generation full-size Japanese SUV has been on sale for nearly a decade without any major updates or a redesign. It’s possible owners just don’t see the need to trade it in for a new model.

Source



I see no crossovers on this list

 

This is where I am gonna disagree with you my friend. Buying a new Lexus or Toyota is acceptable. I don’t see the point in a Toyota or Lexus lease vs buy. You get the full value when you pass the 6-7 year of ownership. Hit 15plus years, that is when they really made their value proposition. Not sure if you will agree?

 

None of this bothers me at all, this is Car Chat, I like discussing the auto industry and thats what I'm doing. Not sure why its getting you so worked up.

You keep bringing this back to "what I like to drive" I'm not talking about what I like to drive, I'm talking about the industry in an objective way. The shift from BOF SUVs to unibody crossovers is clear and undeniable. Same as the shift from sedans to crossovers is undeniable.

There is no "unibody people" or "BOF people" lol, we're talking about sales trends across the entire industry.

He's actually tired of driving it every day. He's going to keep it as a third vehicle but he's looking for a 3 row unibody crossover to drive every day. Not kidding, talked to him about it a couple days ago.

GM full size SUV sales are down 50% compared to 10-15 years ago, but I agree you will absolutely continue to see large BOF SUVs from GM and Ford as long as they make large BOF pickups, It only makes financial sense for them.

I do believe you will continue to see other BOF SUVs in the US dissapear, GX and LX, 4 Runner...

Again, what you or I do is not important. This Car Chat, which is a discussion of cars in general and the automobile industry as a whole. I'm glad you enjoy buying used cars, we are talking in this topic about new vehicle sales.

Some of those sales may absolutely have gone to full sized BOF trucks, but we're talking about BOF SUVs here, and the decline in sales of BOF SUVs over the past 15 years is undeniable. while the growth in unibody crossover sales over the same period is also undeniable.

I'm not talking about worldwide, I'm talking about the US. Many manufacturers sell BOF SUV models elsewhere in the world they don't sell here, because there is growing demand elsewhere in the world, demand here is shrinking.

One thing I found interesting when I looked up Tahoe sales, Tahoe sales are down 50% in the US 2005 to 2019, but in Canada....they've doubled over the same timeframe.

 

BOF SUVs have their place. Since this is a Lexus board, the issue a lot of us have with Lexus is that they offer FWD based crossovers that can't compete with tier 1 brands, and two BOF SUVs that, platford aside, are archaic with 80ies technology. Their offroad prowess is greatly exaggerated - they don't even offer torque vectoring and all the electronic controls that RRs have.

By the way, even the new Defender is unibody.