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brightened my day--6MT Corollas are in stock

 
Old 05-08-19, 10:09 AM
  #1  
Johnhav430
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Default brightened my day--6MT Corollas are in stock

One is 3 miles from my house, 2 others in the area. When I first searched, 0 from Boston to DC. So it would seem, that one can actually buy one now. SE only I believe. Not really any options at all, just mats and flaps etc. .

I might have to test drive it, even if there is no gift card. It's a car I would consider for the manual alone.
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Old 05-08-19, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnhav430 View Post
One is 3 miles from my house, 2 others in the area. When I first searched, 0 from Boston to DC. So it would seem, that one can actually buy one now. SE only I believe. Not really any options at all, just mats and flaps etc. .

I might have to test drive it, even if there is no gift card. It's a car I would consider for the manual alone.

Each to his own, but you enjoy rowing your own gears in that bumper-to-bumper Philly traffic?
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Old 05-08-19, 12:30 PM
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Absolutely. The third pedal makes it more engaging. If it's going to take 75 minutes to go 22 miles, anything helps. With an automatic, one foot is going back and forth either on brake, off brake, or from brake, to accelerator, to brake, to accelerator. That's no fun.

It's nary different than when you see guys buying their own trucks and going with 18 speed manuals. You'll only find autos on corporate trucks today. I didn't think you could actually buy a Corolla stick, even though I know they "exist" like Sasquatch. I called the dealership and they actually have 2 in stock.

edit my buddy was at the Toyota dealership (Tampa FL) today getting his Lexus serviced, and said imagine if there were a Camry stick, he'd be all over it. His dream car is actually a non-existent manual Highlander. We both are not interested in the Accord mostly due to looks...

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Old 05-08-19, 01:10 PM
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I have a coworker with a manual Corolla SE hatch in the bright blue color and he absolutely loves it. And he has a commute, too.

It's like this: if you want a hot hatch (say, GTI or Veloster N) but need to get really good gas mileage and want to save some money compared to getting an actual hot hatch, you get this car. It's going to be more fun for less money.

There's also the Civic hatch with the manual, however. It will be a slightly better performer. I wonder how the pros/cons of those two cars shake out.
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Old 05-08-19, 01:55 PM
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best car for traffic is the prius prime, full speed cruise control as standard! and it actually works well, well enough that it's actually contributing to relaxation as opposed to making you stressed out that the car will crash itself
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Old 05-08-19, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mmarshall View Post
Each to his own, but you enjoy rowing your own gears in that bumper-to-bumper Philly traffic?
I'll add that I've always been happy driving all my manual cars in bumper to bumper L.A. and Florida city traffic. There is a rhythm to it. The bad part isn't the car's transmission but the traffic itself and in that sense it doesn't matter what you're driving. Operating a manual transmission in traffic, unless you have a totally on/off style expensive racing clutch that hates to be slipped at all, is not a big deal IMO. Never has been for me with every city driven manual car I've owned.

A Corolla hatch manual is as easy as it gets.

Originally Posted by Stroock639 View Post
best car for traffic is the prius prime, full speed cruise control as standard! and it actually works well, well enough that it's actually contributing to relaxation as opposed to making you stressed out that the car will crash itself
This is where I say to each their own but I've just never been able to get on board with the Prius. Once you're out of even the worst traffic jam imaginable it's still a rather bland car to drive, isn't it? Wouldn't you say your E55 AMG is a night and day superior car in traffic save for the fuel economy differences? Your Benz even takes the manual argument totally out of the equation.

To be clear I have always liked it that Prius models get pretty exceptional fuel economy but when you want to actually feel the car, toss it around and have fun with it (something you do not, contrary to popular lore, need a lot of horsepower to do) it doesn't reward the driver as a "fun" car to drive more than other compact economy cars that might be in the same price range or even the same weight & dimension class.

The "all speed" cruise control that you speak of which must be integrated into the AEB system certainly must make the bumper to bumper crawl less involving. Currently Bosch has a patent on an electronically actuated clutch pedal design that is capable of allowing a modern manual transmission car achieve the same thing in theory when the computer automatically feathers the drive-by-wire throttle on the fly and communicates with the forward proximity sensors.

No manufacturer currently offers any version of that system on any of their manual transmission models but regardless the technology to do this same thing at low speed crawls WITH a manual transmission car exists right now.

GM also has a similar patent on an electronically actuated clutch pedal and hydraulic system.

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Old 05-08-19, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by KahnBB6 View Post
This is where I say to each their own but I've just never been able to get on board with the Prius. Once you're out of even the worst traffic jam imaginable it's still a rather bland car to drive, isn't it? Wouldn't you say your E55 AMG is a night and day superior car in traffic save for the fuel economy differences? Your Benz even takes the manual argument totally out of the equation.

To be clear I have always liked it that Prius models get pretty exceptional fuel economy but when you want to actually feel the car, toss it around and have fun with it (something you do not, contrary to popular lore, need a lot of horsepower to do) it doesn't reward the driver as a "fun" car to drive more than other compact economy cars that might be in the same price range or even the same weight & dimension class.
a prius i would never get, but a prius prime is totally different ballpark

that fact that i do love the LS and E55 so much with their V8s and rwd dynamics should make the prius prime that much more intriguing to you haha

i'm not joking when i say the prime is one of the most fun and engaging cars to drive, if you drive it in all out eco warrior psycho mode... the car literally makes the process of getting good mpgs into a game (quite a distracting one at times lol), with the goal of keeping the line in the green eco section




i'm a fan of trying to only use cars for their specific strong suits, if i need to beat up on an M3 or just want to briefly make myself start giggling like beavis and butthead and then return to comfortable quiet cruising, the E55 is absolutely where it's at... i have no desire to 'feel' the prius prime (although with a full charge it will actually do a small burnout off the line and feels almost like a mini tesla or something) that's not its reason for existence and doesn't do "finding the limit" very well

but there's something cool (to me at least) about driving around and feeling like you're literally not wasting or burning anything, the prime can do 25 miles on EV alone so i love the idea of being able to drive around at essentially no cost whatsoever, and then to just plug it into your house... the prime would just be the station car and for doing errands around town and other short drives, it's also comfortable and genuinely nice riding (just wish it didn't have to look so 'different')

i like the idea of getting around so cheaply and guilt free, but the power i need to have lol... i'd rather preserve the LS and E55 and only use them when i want to, not when i have to, and by not using them all the time it makes the times you do use them that much better and more satisfying... also if something is gonna spend time stopping and starting, being in traffic and getting parked in a lot next to other cars, i'd rather it be something under warranty that's currently in production with much cheaper easier to find parts... someone backing into the LS at even a moderately low speed could literally total the car too so i definitely don't want that
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Old 05-08-19, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnhav430 View Post
One is 3 miles from my house, 2 others in the area. When I first searched, 0 from Boston to DC. So it would seem, that one can actually buy one now. SE only I believe. Not really any options at all, just mats and flaps etc. .

I might have to test drive it, even if there is no gift card. It's a car I would consider for the manual alone.
If you want the best manual at a great price - get the BRZ / 86.

If you need a sedan - Accord Sport is also good option.

Weird that Corolla has Manual but not the Supra!
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Old 05-08-19, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by RNM GS3 View Post
If you want the best manual at a great price - get the BRZ / 86.

If you need a sedan - Accord Sport is also good option.

Weird that Corolla has Manual but not the Supra!
everyone always likes to say the brz is too slow blah blah blah and they're right with regard to torque (it has none), but once you actually get it working and keep the revs up it's a satisfyingly fast car, and one of the best handling around

and uhhhh what're you talking about? the supra has a manual... the toyota 86 TRD pro GRMN doesn't however
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Old 05-08-19, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by RNM GS3 View Post
If you want the best manual at a great price - get the BRZ / 86.
Originally Posted by Stroock639 View Post
everyone always likes to say the brz is too slow blah blah blah and they're right with regard to torque (it has none), but once you actually get it working and keep the revs up it's a satisfyingly fast car, and one of the best handling around
^^ Absolutely. For all the complaints about the GT86/BRZ not having enough power... it doesn't if you're comparing it to much more powerful classes of sportscars but that's not what the thing was designed to be. It's one of the best genuine sports cars I've driven in years and, yes, it's balance and fun factor are actually that high. I owned a manual Prelude with a nearly identical 200hp / 156 ft-lbs of torque that was just as slow... but that car was extremely fun no matter what you did with it.

The 86/BRZ is an immensely better car than that Honda ever was and both exist in the same relative price ballparks for their respective eras. No, an 86/BRZ is not properly fast but it certainly can be quick and its set up correctly for driving fun and all around livability.

Originally Posted by RNM GS3 View Post
If you need a sedan - Accord Sport is also good option.
^^ This too. The current Accord is very good and even has a 250hp 2.0 turbo 6-speed manual trim level.


Originally Posted by RNM GS3 View Post
Weird that Corolla has Manual but not the Supra!
Yep. It's a head scratcher. The Toyota TGNA platform on which the 2019 Corolla is based has a much wider spread of models using it and many more markets than the USA requiring manual offerings. Plus Akio prefers no boring cars if business cases can be made to follow that edict so I think that's why the Corolla got R&D money for a brand new manual with rev matching.

The 2020 Supra on the other hand is arguably the most obvious model requiring a manual gearbox... and since one would be used from the BMW/ZF/Getrag parts bin (although since the days of the MKIV Toyota quite seriously burned their professional relationship with Getrag over warranty services related to the V160 that were related to the design characteristics they had already signed off on to begin with) it only makes sense that it is not that difficult to offer one at launch.

From what I learned the biggest reason is that ALL Toyotas going forward are required to have Toyota Safety Sense (TSS) 2.0. And supposedly even with all the existing parts-bin driveline repurposing and re-engineering it still had an estimated $500 MILLION to figure out how to design an all-new manual gearbox and and supporting system that is compatible with TSS 2.0.

I find Toyota's internal cost figure very difficult to believe if they were able to make a manual work on the 2019+ Corolla and 2019+ GT86/BRZ. And knowing that BMW manuals exist to nearly plug in... it really comes down to two things to get a manual MKV Supra:

1) Sales of the current model as strong as possible worldwide

2) Complain to Toyota corporate and to your dealer if you're seriously looking at buying one that you REALLY want a manual model. If you are in the manual-only camp, maybe go test drive a Supra when that becomes possible and tell the sales folks it's a dealbreaker and that you're going to go across town and buy a BMW M2 Competition or M3/M4 manual instead. Or whatever you like.

Really, it seems that Toyota corporate, Akio Toyoda, Tetsuya Tada, Tada's entire engineering team and probably every single Toyota dealer who is getting Supra allocations is more than aware there is demand for a manual Supra MKV. And in reality there are probably only so many years they will be able to legally offer one and still meet all the emissions and fuel economy regulations with a non-hybrid engine design.

But I do think they will release one. It's just that they see the automatic as the sales leader and also want to see if the car sells to their expectations initially before offering other variants for 2021 or 2022. So far it seems that they won't have enough Supra MKV's to meet current demand so the prospects of a manual Supra MKV and a higher performance Supra MKV are probably good. Hopefully.


Originally Posted by Stroock639 View Post
and uhhhh what're you talking about? the supra has a manual... the toyota 86 TRD pro GRMN doesn't however
Stroock639, the new 2020 Supra currently does NOT have a manual. What source do you have to the contrary? Can you provide a link, please?

And the there is no Toyota 86 "TRD Pro GRMN". There is a Toyota 86 TRD Special Edition in the USA and it certainly does have a 6-speed manual transmission. For the Japanese market only there was a limited 100 car run of the 86 GRMN with slightly more power (still no turbo) and some upgrades that the USA TRD model didn't get and it also definitely came with a 6-speed manual transmission. Automatics were not available in either one in the USA or Japan, just on the regular 86 trim levels.

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Old 05-08-19, 10:15 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by KahnBB6 View Post
Stroock639, the new 2020 Supra currently does NOT have a manual. What source do you have to the contrary? Can you provide a link, please?

And the there is no Toyota 86 "TRD Pro GRMN". There is a Toyota 86 TRD Special Edition in the USA and it certainly does have a 6-speed manual transmission. For the Japanese market only there was a limited 100 car run of the 86 GRMN with slightly more power (still no turbo) and some upgrades that the USA TRD model didn't get and it also definitely came with a 6-speed manual transmission. Automatics were not available in either one in the USA or Japan, just on the regular 86 trim levels.
i'm just being a goofball, intentionally not acknowledging the zupra as a real supra and suggesting it's more worthy of being called like the 86 trd pro grmn or something

when i say supra i generally mean up to the mk iv, otherwise i say zupra or "supra" for this one, yes i know it's silly but i'm an idiot like that lol

come on of course i know the mk v has no manual and there's no such thing as a "trd pro grmn" lmao
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Old 05-08-19, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Stroock639 View Post
i'm just being a goofball, intentionally not acknowledging the zupra as a real supra and suggesting it's more worthy of being called like the 86 trd pro grmn or something

when i say supra i generally mean up to the mk iv, otherwise i say zupra or "supra" for this one, yes i know it's silly but i'm an idiot like that lol

come on of course i know the mk v has no manual and there's no such thing as a "trd pro grmn" lmao
No worries, lol! I suspected based on your earlier use of "Zupra" but still wasn't entirely sure because there remains a lot of rumor and speculation on the car even now As for the 86 TRD and GRMN I figured there actually could be confusion around the specs of either one. I didn't realize that's where your joke was going though.

Well, its current reputation among those who hate that its underpinnings and driveline were co-developed is only going to be what it is for now but going forward like any good enthusiast's car it's only going to make a truly good reputation if it holds up in the hands of the owners and tuners. I think once that happens it will prove itself worthy, while realizing that the MKIV's driveline was as overbuilt as it was (just like the Nissan RB26) because of the unique economic conditions during the time period in which it came to be. That said, I think that's *why* Toyota spend more money on correcting any major weaknesses in the B58 rather than initially spend even more to change the horsepower rating (but that "335 horsepower" figure is definitely not 100% true either).

For me personally the co-developed origins of the car's architecture are far less a concern than the release or non-release of a manual 3.0L I6 Turbo version and a manual GRMN version with at least 450hp if not 500hp (which would probably use a fully analyzed and revised off the shelf S58 hopefully with a previously rumored CGI block).

Either variant really needs to be released sooner rather than later... because due to regulatory factors with industry-wide implications far larger than the scope of the MKV Supra there is probably a window spanning only so many model years for both the pure gas-turbo powered MKV and a manual transmission for it. Toyota may have factored in the long term use of the B58 and any other engine they plan to use for ten or even fifteen years. More likely ten model years until another major revision as tends to be the case although if the Z34 has established any copyable trend maybe the MKV will stay around in its current chassis until 2035 instead of just 2030. We'll see.

But given that, every model year they don't release a manual variant and a higher performance GRMN variant the fewer of them will exist and the fewer years anyone will have to buy the version they want brand new before we're dealing with another expensive used very low volume Supra that will once again encounter a scarcity of some key new OEM replacement and service parts.

After their first year sales I hope they remedy this problem. It's not a Camry and the target buyers of this car are going to cross-shop any other new high performance vehicle that gives them the options and features they want.

That Toyota who, like every other major automaker save exotic and extremely high end luxury car makers, decided to pour the bulk of their R&D money into electric and autonomous vehicle projects, decided they would only make a new Supra if they co-developed it with another major automaker who is also pouring the bulk of their R&D money into electric and autonomous vehicle projects, ranks pretty low on my very short list of gripes over this car.

Just this year the Tesla Model 3, a spartan appointed pre-Level 5 autonomous taxicab with no dashboard gauge cluster de-emphasizing the role of the driver that is shaped like an egg on the outside outsold the BMW 3 Series. And also this year the BMW 3 Series dropped its manual transmission except for its M3 and M4 models. This year Ford stopped all development of cars for the USA other than the Mustang and instead only plans to sell CUVs, SUVs and trucks. And the Mustang.... which itself will eventually ride on the new Explorer platform which will then turn it into a pig.

I'm not against the electric wave at all and in fact I welcome it but for the moment we still do have the last best versions of some of the best car models that remind us why we love to drive various cars in the first place.

Toyota can make their 86 with Subaru and their Supra with BMW just as Mazda made their Miata with Fiat and just as Mercedes-Benz and BMW will be sharing some architectures and technologies soon. But personally if Toyota never offers a stick-shift MKV I'd rather buy a manual BMW M2... which just like the GT86/BRZ has a 50% take rate on the 6-speed M/T.

The window still exists right now if Toyota will just meet the overwhelming demand. But the window will not last forever. And years well beyond the present time Toyota's Supra, hopefully still staying as true to its core ethos as an ultimate driver centric Toyota as possible, will be propelled very differently than it currently is regardless.

I don't fault them for making it affordable at significantly higher production unit volume than the R35 GTR by co-developing the basic bones and driveline with BMW and thus making it far more attainable to more buyers but I will fault them if they do not take advantage of the window they have right now to get the car's options, trim levels and specs right so as to offer a truly modern alternative to an increasingly rare and increasingly more expensive Supra MKIV TT 6-speed manual that has a list of discontinued original parts that grows year by year.


...


Now in the interest of looking back to the thread topic of the 2019+ Corolla 6-speed M/T I do hope they don't turn out to be nigh impossible to find on dealer lots because while it isn't a hot hatch it's a great looking hatchback and seems like it would be very livable everyday fun commuter car. Additionally if either Quaife or Wavetrac releases an aftermarket mechanical LSD for its 6-speed gearbox then it would be an even better prospect.

I ran into one gentleman at my local dealer who was bringing his in for service and I just had to ask him about it. He told me he loved it but also explained how difficult it was for him to find one locally before one dealer had one shipped in from out of state with the exterior color and options he wanted.

There's a good reason for Toyota to start allowing customers to place factory orders for some specific model trims rather than making them hunt around between for whatever stock dealers allocated for themselves in one lump for the year or half year.

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Old 05-09-19, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by KahnBB6 View Post
No worries, lol! I suspected based on your earlier use of "Zupra" but still wasn't entirely sure because there remains a lot of rumor and speculation on the car even now As for the 86 TRD and GRMN I figured there actually could be confusion around the specs of either one. I didn't realize that's where your joke was going though.

Well, its current reputation among those who hate that its underpinnings and driveline were co-developed is only going to be what it is for now but going forward like any good enthusiast's car it's only going to make a truly good reputation if it holds up in the hands of the owners and tuners. I think once that happens it will prove itself worthy, while realizing that the MKIV's driveline was as overbuilt as it was (just like the Nissan RB26) because of the unique economic conditions during the time period in which it came to be. That said, I think that's *why* Toyota spend more money on correcting any major weaknesses in the B58 rather than initially spend even more to change the horsepower rating (but that "335 horsepower" figure is definitely not 100% true either).

For me personally the co-developed origins of the car's architecture are far less a concern than the release or non-release of a manual 3.0L I6 Turbo version and a manual GRMN version with at least 450hp if not 500hp (which would probably use a fully analyzed and revised off the shelf S58 hopefully with a previously rumored CGI block).

Either variant really needs to be released sooner rather than later... because due to regulatory factors with industry-wide implications far larger than the scope of the MKV Supra there is probably a window spanning only so many model years for both the pure gas-turbo powered MKV and a manual transmission for it. Toyota may have factored in the long term use of the B58 and any other engine they plan to use for ten or even fifteen years. More likely ten model years until another major revision as tends to be the case although if the Z34 has established any copyable trend maybe the MKV will stay around in its current chassis until 2035 instead of just 2030. We'll see.

But given that, every model year they don't release a manual variant and a higher performance GRMN variant the fewer of them will exist and the fewer years anyone will have to buy the version they want brand new before we're dealing with another expensive used very low volume Supra that will once again encounter a scarcity of some key new OEM replacement and service parts.

After their first year sales I hope they remedy this problem. It's not a Camry and the target buyers of this car are going to cross-shop any other new high performance vehicle that gives them the options and features they want.

That Toyota who, like every other major automaker save exotic and extremely high end luxury car makers, decided to pour the bulk of their R&D money into electric and autonomous vehicle projects, decided they would only make a new Supra if they co-developed it with another major automaker who is also pouring the bulk of their R&D money into electric and autonomous vehicle projects, ranks pretty low on my very short list of gripes over this car.

Just this year the Tesla Model 3, a spartan appointed pre-Level 5 autonomous taxicab with no dashboard gauge cluster de-emphasizing the role of the driver that is shaped like an egg on the outside outsold the BMW 3 Series. And also this year the BMW 3 Series dropped its manual transmission except for its M3 and M4 models. This year Ford stopped all development of cars for the USA other than the Mustang and instead only plans to sell CUVs, SUVs and trucks. And the Mustang.... which itself will eventually ride on the new Explorer platform which will then turn it into a pig.

I'm not against the electric wave at all and in fact I welcome it but for the moment we still do have the last best versions of some of the best car models that remind us why we love to drive various cars in the first place.

Toyota can make their 86 with Subaru and their Supra with BMW just as Mazda made their Miata with Fiat and just as Mercedes-Benz and BMW will be sharing some architectures and technologies soon. But personally if Toyota never offers a stick-shift MKV I'd rather buy a manual BMW M2... which just like the GT86/BRZ has a 50% take rate on the 6-speed M/T.

The window still exists right now if Toyota will just meet the overwhelming demand. But the window will not last forever. And years well beyond the present time Toyota's Supra, hopefully still staying as true to its core ethos as an ultimate driver centric Toyota as possible, will be propelled very differently than it currently is regardless.

I don't fault them for making it affordable at significantly higher production unit volume than the R35 GTR by co-developing the basic bones and driveline with BMW and thus making it far more attainable to more buyers but I will fault them if they do not take advantage of the window they have right now to get the car's options, trim levels and specs right so as to offer a truly modern alternative to an increasingly rare and increasingly more expensive Supra MKIV TT 6-speed manual that has a list of discontinued original parts that grows year by year.


...


Now in the interest of looking back to the thread topic of the 2019+ Corolla 6-speed M/T I do hope they don't turn out to be nigh impossible to find on dealer lots because while it isn't a hot hatch it's a great looking hatchback and seems like it would be very livable everyday fun commuter car. Additionally if either Quaife or Wavetrac releases an aftermarket mechanical LSD for its 6-speed gearbox then it would be an even better prospect.

I ran into one gentleman at my local dealer who was bringing his in for service and I just had to ask him about it. He told me he loved it but also explained how difficult it was for him to find one locally before one dealer had one shipped in from out of state with the exterior color and options he wanted.

There's a good reason for Toyota to start allowing customers to place factory orders for some specific model trims rather than making them hunt around between for whatever stock dealers allocated for themselves in one lump for the year or half year.
I really want to see what the intelligent part of this tranny is, and how it feels. Only way to do it is by driving it. I took a Subaru WRX Limited manual, out a couple years ago and I would have to say that's not what I would be looking for. And I wonder in the real world, is there really a penalty for a stick over an auto. Again, I'm totally fine with driving a Corolla, but one of my assumptions would be, if I buy a car like this, it could last indefinitely within reason, like say a 95 Camry would. I don't see getting a car like this affecting future dreams of a 991 or M3 or Corvette etc. Getting something way more expensive like a 340i or a M2 today, would affect the future. In other words, if it's a "somewhat" fun to drive car, and can last a really long time, it doesn't break the bank how it's priced....this could be a cash purchase imho...I don't need it right now, but I usually look ahead at least 3 years...
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Old 05-09-19, 06:20 AM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by Johnhav430 View Post
Absolutely. The third pedal makes it more engaging. If it's going to take 75 minutes to go 22 miles, anything helps. With an automatic, one foot is going back and forth either on brake, off brake, or from brake, to accelerator, to brake, to accelerator. That's no fun.
If it's simply the sheer joy of manual-shifting that you are looking for, it's probably hard to beat a Mazda Miata (or the Miata-based Fiat 124 Spyder). For several reasons, though (light weight, RWD, and poor wet/snow traction among them), unlike a Corolla, both are generally fair-weather cars, even with the optional folding hard-top, and might not be suitable for daily commuting in bad weather. You also, of course, have to be able to actually FIT inside one of them LOL.
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Old 05-09-19, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by mmarshall View Post
If it's simply the sheer joy of manual-shifting that you are looking for, it's probably hard to beat a Mazda Miata (or the Miata-based Fiat 124 Spyder). For several reasons, though (light weight, RWD, and poor wet/snow traction among them), unlike a Corolla, both are generally fair-weather cars, even with the optional folding hard-top, and might not be suitable for daily commuting in bad weather. You also, of course, have to be able to actually FIT inside one of them LOL.
I may be wrong but a Corolla and Miata are not typically cross shopped. One is a solid commuter car and the other more of a weekend warrior for windy and twisty roads or on a road course.
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