spwolf

Who sells what in base version? They do LS350 because of the taxes, and price is comparable to S320 in China... as is LS500h with S350-450.

Otherwise, LS sells pretty good there, as does Lexus with no local production... large growth in 2018 and now in 2019 too.


from LE
1. ES 59,372 (40,397 Gas + 18,975 Hybrid)
2. NX 40,192 (29,901 Gas + 10,291 Hybrid)
3. RX 33,824 (30,431 Gas + 3,393 Hybrid)
4. IS 9,360
5. CT 8,982
6. LX 5,114
7. LS 4,569 (1,396 Gas + 3,173 Hybrid)
8. GS 2,524 (1,493 Gas + 1,031 Hybrid)
9. GX 353
10. RC 237
11. LC 180
Total 164,707

Toys4RJill

So I am glad we are having a deeper discussion compared to some of the other comments. Lexus worldwide is growing and Lexus sells more units outside of the United States vs in the US which is 42.5% off all sales. So armed with this knowledge, China has grown 24% in Lexus sales in 2018, they sell to about half of what the US sells. I would bet the LS sells well in China. Lexus sells in 150 worldwide markets. It's clear the LS was made for all markets not just the US. The best performing market for Lexus for growth is China, Japan and Taiwan.

MattyG

So where did Lexus Enthusiast get those numbers from? 4500+ is commendable since many manufacturers use China to prop up their sales numbers including all of the luxury car manufacturers. btw, we all know that local taxation rules determine the cars that are sold there whether that's due to engine displacement or other factors. No need to state the obvious. The bulk of this thread is about luxury car sales for March 2019 is it not? And for the US?

MattyG

I would agree Asia Pacific is significant and a big factor, but the bulk of sales are going to be something along the lines of ES, RX, NX, UX. These markets can prop up the LS but the other competition does this too, so the question becomes; can Lexus keep the LS around in the US market compared to what the other guys are doing?

nicedude

So you are saying Toyota improved the suspension refinement from the last generation Camry to the current generation Camry? Is that some new revelation? What is Toyota suppose to do? Make the Camry worse riding? Reviewers have been impressed by the improvements (small) in the Camry's "fun to drive" factor in the past two generations. No reason to let the Accord be the fun one and the Camry be the boring one. Btw, check the sales of the new Camry, not looking good compared to the previous generation. Does that mean people want a less compliant Camry? (Answer is no...)

You keep bringing up the 4GS and its refresh and I keep reminding you to look at the 2016 GS and then look at your current GS. Just look at it. Day and night almost. So if Lexus made the refreshed 4GS more "luxurious and softer," is that a bad thing? Are we not to expect Lexus to make it better? You can still be a good sport sedan and still be "luxurious and soft." Unless you are suggesting the 4GS is not that, but a hard riding sedan with a back breaking suspension. Check the GS sales after the refresh too. But I won't blame the GS sales failure on "luxury and soft." We all know the ES (the "boring" mid-size sedan) is a better value proposition.

Two examples where you suggest Toyota/Lexus screwed up initially and made the refresh/next generation more "soft," yet sales dropped after. Haha. That ain't it chief.

I get it. You don't like the 5LS. You want a traditional full size luxury car. Go buy a S Class since you love comparing the LS to it. I want a more reliable Panamera/XJ/Quattroporte, the 5LS is the closest alternative.

nicedude

As I told OP, this is not 2000 anymore (or 1990 if we want to go way back). The S Class took the crown back during the 4LS years and is not giving it back. Blame the 4LS, not the 5LS.

Like I wrote countless times, the Model S and Panamera (both not your traditional full size luxury sedan) came in during the 4LS years and took market share from the 4LS. Lexus realized it had to change because the S Class and 7 Series maintained market share and followed the footsteps of the Model S and Panamera for the 5LS, instead of sticking to the same routine. The results are here. Most fun to drive LS ever, but lacks the overall refinement found in the old LS. Going for a slightly younger demographic with money.

nicedude

You heard from the Admin, you can post in the 5LS section all you want. Just don't be a troll (not calling you a troll) and create a new thread each month lamenting your disgust with the 5LS.

On my radar if no next generation 5GS.

nicedude

4GS sales fell off before and after the refresh either way. I bet the exterior changes made a stronger impression than "more softer and luxurious." Whatever that means...

"Firm loud sports." Smh. No need to discuss further with you. You like boring cars and I don't. It is what it is.

The LFA and the current LC are halo cars for Lexus. It does not need to sell in high quantities. The LFA for sure was going to be money losing, but it was Lexus showing the world in can make a supercar. Making a better S Class is so 1990. That original demographic "retired from driving." Time to move on.

nicedude

I think most of the people at Car Chat are Lexus fans. We all want Lexus to be successful in the long run. Some people might even be old enough to have experienced the golden age of the 90's and early 2000's. I did not. But as we objectively look at Lexus now, we know Lexus is not a "leader" in the luxury market. I think OP mentioned that the 5LS is the second/third option in the segment (not really no-man's land). I agree. I actually think the whole Lexus lineup is like that. Not the best, but good enough to be top three/four. At this point, Lexus is known for reliability, resale value, overall value, and a great dealership experience. None of this screams the best luxury automaker. People that experienced the golden age era need to realize that is not happening again anytime soon. Don't matter if the 5LS was designed like a traditional luxury sedan. It would have just been a Lexus G90, which doesn't sell much even with a lower price (yes, they have dealership issues). Not groundbreaking and won't be better than the S Class, but good enough.

For the most part, if you are leasing, you go lease a German luxury car. If you are buying, you buy a Lexus. That has not changed for the most part.

The unnecessary hate for the 5LS by OP is a little understandable considering his love for the 3LS. There is a S Class or G90 when the time comes.

The blatant hate for the LFA, LC, RC, and probably the F lineup by Steve is really disappointing. Lexus is trying hard to shed its boring senior citizen image, yet you want it to be boring forever. In the perfect world, Lexus can make both for two different demographics. But no one lives forever so we know why Lexus had to change.

peteharvey

Obviously, you don't understand.
The past two generations of Camries both have improved handling, but they both achieved improved handling by different means.
The old 2012-18 Camry improved the handling by using firmer spring rates at the expense to ride and harshness!
Incidentally, the 2012-15 Lexus 4GS, and the 2012-18 6ES with Ultra Luxrury Pack also improved their handling by using firmer spring rates [at great expense to ride].

The new 2018-24 Camry is different.
It actually has softer and more compliant spring rates, for a much better ride! Much more compliant!
Wouldn't handling diminish as a result? Well, normally this would be the case.
However, in this special situation, the new 2018-24 Camry and 7ES were able to improve both ride and handling by using softer spring rates, but the newfound handling was achieved by lowering both the ride height and lowering the cabin interior height too.
The other way the new 2018-24 Camry/7ES improved handling was by adopting a new rear multilink suspension to help keep the rear tires perpendicular to the road.
The main drawback of the new 2018-24 Camry's lower design is a shallower trunk, and an interior cabin with diminished floor to ceiling dimensions.

Regarding the original 4GS, why would Lexus use firmer spring rates, with less sound insulation material in the firewall and floor etc for a louder idle, louder full throttle and a terse ride for character and handling respectively - only the add back the sound insulation material for a quieter idle, less road noise, and a more compliant ride at the expense to handling at the 2016 mid-life refresh???
Confused? They did it.
The part numbers in the coils and shocks are different with the midlife refresh.

Have you ever read threads in the old 6ES section?
The old 2012-18 6ES flagship with the Ultra Luxury Pack had very "terse" suspension with different part numbers.
Now test drive yourself the all new 2108-24 7ES.
Now, even in F Sport, the ride is so good!
Read this thread: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...in-a-on-a.html
Thus, Lexus has done an about-face with the suspension, deleting the old terse suspension set up, for a new much more compliant set up.

Lexus normally only does minor refreshed that do little for sales.
The only time I've ever seen Lexus do a major refresh is for the 4LS which began life in August 2006, and production ceased in October 2017 - which is more than 11 years, and almost 12 years.
.

peteharvey

Of course it is not 1990 nor 2000 anymore.

No that is not what happened.
You are a young upstart with wild imagination.
There is NO direct evidence that Tesla Model S and Porsche Panamera has taken market share from 4LS.
"Lexus realized it had to change because the S Class and 7 Series maintained market share" - this is all your imagination.

President Akio took the reigns in 2009.
He races his Maserati regularly at the Nurburgring.
He is heavily influenced by his peers.
After Akio took over, he remarked at how European cars have heritage from sports - he then stipulated that TMC will no longer make boring cars, and that TMC products will have more "inspired" styling and more "inspired" dynamics.
This is how the years following his takeover in 2009, TMC products have more inspired styling and more inspired dynamics.
However, this came at a cost.
My 4GS is very terse riding.
The 2012-18 Camry V6's of my staff were very terse riding, and more noisy than previous Camries too.
A flagship 2012-18 6ES with the Ultra Luxury Pack had different coil spring part numbers and consequently a very terse ride too.

Making 5LS sporty has nothing to do with Model S, nor Panamera as you think.
The entire Toyota/Lexus range was made sporty.

Making Toyota and Lexus products more sporty is a great thing.
The only problem is when the targeted Young Millenials refuse to buy it - which is what this thread is all about.
Sub-500 units/month now, and it won't be long before we see sub-100 units/month, and then sub-50 units/month, and then sub-50 units/year.
.

peteharvey

It is great to reduce the sound insulation in the original 4GS and 5LS etc; less costly, and lighter weight too.
It is great to use firmer spring rates at the expense to ride.

However, the Young Millenials are NOT buying the 5LS in self-sustainable numbers - that is a problem for the manufacturer, and what this thread is all about.
Toyota Motor Corp have a limit to how many white elephants they can have at any one time, especially if they want to maintain their auto industry leading US$200 billion dollars in equity.

5LS must be designed to meet the needs wants & tastes of the wide majority of buyers - rather than trying to meet the needs wants & tastes of the narrow minority, who are not purchasing the 5LS in any case - else follow Infiniti & Acura into irrelevance...
.

jrmckinley

This post is very well-stated in my opinion (I deleted one sentence referencing "Steve" not liking something because I have no idea who that is and not relevant to my point). What's in bold is not just Lexus- but parent company Toyota as well. The Avalon is not your grandpa's car anymore - styling and everything about it is geared towards a much different crowd than the Avalon from the late 90's into the 2000's. I'd argue that Avalon owners in that time period were older than LS owners.

The reality is folks like my parents who bought the original early 90's LS 400's are entering a different phase of life. They tend to hold onto cars longer, may be physically restricted to getting in and out of a lower-sitting sedan (compared to a cross-over), tend to be more stuck in their ways, etc. They may look at their current car as their "last car" due to it being "good enough", fear they may not be comfortable driving in another 5-10 years, etc. Lexus never focused on that crowd with the LS - maybe a portion of that crowd migrated over from a different brand to the LS, but they certainly weren't Lexus' target. I'm 39 and am the same age as my mom when she got her 1992 LS400. The target demographic hasn't changed - I'd say an LS customer is 32-55 and has money.... just as it was in 1989 when the LS debuted.

I haven't driven the LS500 but did just drive a 2019 ES I had as a loaner. Nice and smooth in "normal mode", yet a bit more fun in "sport mode". Felt incredibly tight (well-assembled) and insulated - I have to imagine the LS500 feels the same way. I know the LS500 is a bit different than the 460 in the interior space, headroom, etc. But a lot of that is for rear passengers. If I can cruise on the highway in silence and comfort in an LS500, it would feel like my experience in my 1996 LS, 2004 LS, and current 2010 LS. If I had a slightly more "nimble" feeling car around town, I'd view that as a benefit. It's why I am tempted to leave the LS for something like an Audi A7 or S7 (and will certainly leave if the eTron GT is what it appears to be).

Bob04

Unnecessary hate? What does that even mean?

Johnhav430

Strange, I liked the Avalon and was in my 20's--but what year was it when it refreshed, the 2000? I also gushed when I saw the 1998 GS400.

On the Avalon? I thought wow, they sure f'd it up, just like Nissan did with the Maxima. UGLY as in hideous. Ditto with the 7 series a few years later. We as human beings have to stop this, beauty is only skin deep thing. Really. An Avalon is a car I have never owned, and never will, yet I wanted to see the newer than 1999 one better than the last.

How do people "hate" inanimate objects, they don't have, and never will? This is the weird part about forums (well there is a lot that is weird about strangers who have never met and never will wanting to out post each other). If you say, "I hate the BMW 335i, as well as the LS430, those are poseur cars for losers." Would I ball up and start crying lol Of course not. If you say, btw, I own both--then I may IM you and say hey, wth happened that you dislike them?

Again, I take a step back and really laugh hard at how personally people take things when they don't even own something, and never will--no skin in the game should be also no skin off one's back. (this is not meant to say you can't afford it, don't read into it). What is it with this LS500--can't some people love it, some people think it's ok, and some people think it's no good and not worth the money?