peteharvey

I think it's great the Lexus now has a corporate image in the spindle grille that partly resembles the shape of the Lexus "L".

Where I find that Lexus went wrong is with sports niching their vehicles to Young Millenials.
Back in February 2012, the all new 4GS was the first to be sports niched, and peak sales fell by 33% from 3GS's 33k to 4GS's 22k, at a time when E Class raised their peak from 2004's 58k to 2013's 69k.
Now the 5LS's is suffering even more severe fall to just 9.5k, when the previous 4LS debut with a thumping 35k, yet S Class only fell to 25k from the previous S Class's 30k.

In response, Lexus is said to have softened my 4GS at the midlife refresh in the 2016's 4.5GS which is said to have softened with more sound insulation used once again.

Likewise, look at this wonderful thread started by CTJill.
Notice how the 6ES became a little sporty, with the 6ES's Ultra Luxury Pack suspension being too firm, while the all new 7ES reverts back to luxury for the 7ES in F Sport trim to score an A+ for ride with Alex on Autos??
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...in-a-on-a.html

It is very important to understand the relationship between age group and models.
Corollas and RAV4's are purchased by youngsters - so no more boring cars is appropriate.
However, how many full size luxury sedans are purchased by youngsters? Is it appropriate to apply no more boring cars to 5LS?

So now the GS line has been inappropriately axed; though if the GS reincarnates in a few years time as a BEV, the Lexus is very clever!
Will the full size Lexus LS be axed just like the Infiniti Q45?
Whose fault was it that the Infiniti Q45 was axed? Nissan's fault for producing poor quality products? Or was Infiniti Q45 axed due to SUV's and a change in market conditions against the traditional full size luxury sedan?
The Q45 was axed in 2006, and in 2007 the 4LS sold 35,000+ thumping units!
You know whose fault Q45 is, and you know whose fault 5LS is.

Why bother designing 5LS and marketing to Young Millenials - if they refuse to purchase the product in sustainable numbers?
Manufacturers can't have too many white elephants - and white elephants end up being axed like Infiniti Q45.
However, remember that the market for full size luxury sedans never caused Infiniti Q45's axing - Infiniti Q45 was hands down Nissan's own fault - and 5LS is hands down Lexus' own fault.
We all have our good and bad days - it's not the end of the world - we can get up on our knees and bounce back...


Lexus gets a corporate L-shaped spindle grille.




The axed Infiniti Q45 was hands down Nissan's own fault - the styling so boring IMO just like rear quarter view of 5LS - and never the fault of SUV's, nor a big change in market conditions.
We must be mature enough to take responsibility for our own actions - rather than play the blame game, and blame it on SUV's or blame it Young Millenials - for our very own mistakes.

Sulu

I think that the more appropriate question, given the direction of this thread is: "The people who criticize the 5LS, how many of them have driven it?".

peteharvey

I've driven 5LS.

Here's my take.
Front 1/4 styling ok, but rear 3/4 styling too Infiniti-like.
Trunk not superlong nor superwide, reasonably long and reasonably wide, but too shallow; feels smaller in volume than my 4GS due to 5LS' lack of depth.
Interior cabin not superlong, but the cabin is long enough; 5LS has a longer cabin for its class than my 4GS has for its class.
However, 5LS too low. 5LS should not have lowered roof line; it should be as tall, if not taller than 4LS.
5LS exterior is wide, but rear doors too thick, so rear is quite narrow - but thick doors give added safety.
5LS feels lower and narrower than 7ES, but probably longer cabin than 7ES.
Engine is fine around town with plenty of bottom end punch, however wide throttle openings bit loud, and harsh; with IS300 & LS500, must accept the small capacity turbos.
5LS chassis very good, but ride not as good as 7ES.
5LS has lots of features.

Overall IMO, the biggest 5LS killer is the rear 3/4 Infiniti-like styling; remember that it was styling that lead to the axing of the Infiniti Q45 back in 2006.
5LS 2nd biggest killer is front mid-engine packaging.
3rd is not as much sound insulation nor ride quality; IMO Lexus should have 2 totally different suspension settings for 5LS - a pure luxury setting for 5LS base model, and a sports set up for F Sport with totally different coil springs, totally different dampers, and totally different roll bars just like AMG, M Sport, and Audi S Line.

These are only my opinions.

The fact is, the Young Millennials are not purchasing the sports niche 5LS in sustainable numbers.
TMC can certainly sports niche the 5LS F Sport, 5LS F, Corollas, and to a lesser extent the RAV4's and Camries, but Lexus should think twice about sports niching the base model 5LS's.
5LS needs a total reskin like 2015 midlife refreshed Camry, else follow the axing of Infiniti Q45...

Toys4RJill

last time I mention this as you keep saying selling poorly What are the worldwide sales of the LS? Do you have this information? US sales numbers do not tell the whole story if Lexus is sell this new LS in other major markets.

Toys4RJill

More Sales does not necessarily means prestige. Maybe prestige and higher price tags are what Lexus was going for

mmarshall

Perhaps slightly off-topic for this thread, but, if that is the case, then why are you concerned about the drop in Pacifica sales?

Toys4RJill

A Pacifica is not a prestige car. An LS is an prestige car, so is a LC.....An ES is not, nor is an Avalon, Lacrosse, 4Runner or Corolla

peteharvey

Back in 2006, Lexus 3LS & 4LS's globally sold 34,833 of which 19,546 from USA - since the US is Lexus's biggest market!
In 2007, 4LS globally sold 71,760 of which 35,226 were US - keeping in mind that the US is Lexus' biggest market.
In 2012, 4LS globally sold 17,578 of which 8,345 were US.

Thus the United State takes roughly 50% of LS global sales.

Europe
In 2014, the all new 2013-20 S Class sold 17,638 S Classes.
Last year 2018, the ageing S Class still managed 14,373 S Classes.
However, while the old 2017 4.5LS sold only 101 4.5LS, in 2018 the all new 5LS only managed a disgusting 636 units.
Back in 2007, the all new 4LS managed to sell 2,365 units across Europe...

Bob04

Worldwide sales aren't as easy to find, but the US is by far the biggest market for Lexus. And it's not even getting close to the stated sales goals.

Toys4RJill

Ok. So let’s see if we can find them. It would be good to know. IMO, the LC and LS are both GA-L platforms, so both need to be taken into account when looking at overall sales. Just like 4Runner and GX and Prado are related. Yes sales are not as high as expected from corporate Toyota. That is true. Is this new LS more prestigious than before? Would Jay Leno or Harry Garage guy buy one and keep one, compared to the outgoing LS460.

MattyG

Depends on which world markets you're talking about. There is no one universal world market per se. You could look at Europe where Lexus doesn't have much of a presence with LS 500 sales. They sold 30 in January and 28 February of this year. In 2017 101 Lexus LS 460s were sold in Europe. The Middle East and Asia Pacific do not report much more than combined sales numbers for Lexus overall but they are not big numbers.

Lexus does not sell in China due to restrictions about importing there unless you partner with a local automobile company or manufacturer. So no LS there or for that matter S class. Toyota sells locally made Crowns executive sedans and MB sells E class LWB sedans. The US is basically the biggest market for Lexus and that's why it gets talked about here so much.

spwolf

You cant compare old info from 2007 or 2012 and use it in 2019... US is not even 30% of LS sales, possibly less. China alone should do 400-500 per month, and so does Japan (and Japan had quite few >1k months at start where before it didnt sell at all).

Sure, LS would sell more if it started at $65k like before... but it would have been a much worse vehicle for it.

spwolf

and here we come to the gist of it, Lexus at the market where they grow, will not do crazy deals when they dont need to.

BMW is stagnating, MB is dropping heavily this year and they are willing to fight way more in the market where Lexus is only one seeing growth.

With new TNGA platforms, Lexus can switch production to vehicle that is in bigger demand (SUVs), without dropping their pants down chasing bottom of the market.

Toys4RJill

Lexus definitely sells in China. LS is available in China. As for the world markets, I think the US sales numbers have been beaten to death. So wondering where they might be growing. Thanks for the numbers from Europe.

MattyG

You're correct Jill re China and LS 500. I missed the LS 350 debut articles on Shenzen and Hong Kong.

They will only sell LS in a base non-turbo version. Sales numbers might be hard to come by, but it's likely that the LS will only be available in limited areas, ie. Hong Kong adminstrative region and parts of China like Shenzen. IMO there is not a strong following of the LS in China. Buicks and BMW, MB do better there according to some articles on the subject.