Tootsall

In reality, defined benefit pension plans in Canada are going the way of the Dodo also; defined contributions where the employee makes a "menu choice" of their pension investment but also accepts both the upside and downside risk are increasingly common except for stronger unions and some government workers. About two years before I retired (and that was 10 years ago), our company froze DB plans and switched all future contributions into a DC clause. New employees were automatically 100% in the defined contribution version. Companies are making this change because a combination of global economic conditions and weaker interest rates put contributions and pension values in an underfunded state and if governments were ever to "force" companies to bring pension plans up to 100% liquidity (as legislation requires), it could force them into bankruptcy...and that would be good for nobody except the "golden parachute" holders. The one good thing was that at least we longer term employees had some protection with our existing defined benefit portions. Subsequently the company "sold" the pension plan to a financial management (insurance/banking) firm and turned all of the DB pensions into annuities. At least it protected pensioners from the risk of the old company going bankrupt (as we've seen in several big cases both in Canada and the US); however we're now keeping our fingers crossed that the financial company stays solvent. The best action was (and is) always to back up your pension plan with an independent investment strategy so you will have multiple streams of income upon retirement (the old "sock under the mattress" trick).

MattyG

Seems like a few anecdotal local/regional issues about lazy municipal workers lead you to believe that all unions and their members must do this. Is this a logical? It's a reasonable assumption to know that local municipal workers who are unionized are going to be less productive than private sector workers. You've conflated several issues into a single statement. Do you think GM is passing on the savings from $25/hr workers to $2/hr workers to the end consumer with the Chevy Blazer? Not likely. Maybe GM should have managed itself better.

btw the Japanese do not usually lay off their workers by habit when times get tough. And that's true even in the US. It can't all be the fault of a single union. The Japanese car factories pay their workers quite well but they also don't have an adverserial relationship with their employees. The Blazer is simply not a good deal. Too pricey, very plain platform and it's being built by people who make very low wages. Who's lining their pockets here?

mmarshall

They can't? You've got to be kidding. Look what GM and Ford are (so far) getting away with....dumping most of their sedan markets to the wolves.

oldcajun

The Japanese companies producing cars in the US are not unionized as far as I know. Before I retired, we visited the Honda factory in Ohio and it was all non-union. The UAW spent a lot of effort to get in there and then cancelled the vote because the employees were going to vote it down by a huge majority. The management/employee relationship was very good there because there was no union to create problems and no management union relations department to make sure the union stayed agitated. I see the failure in US auto company manufacturing as a management problem not just a union problem. American assembly line workers at Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Hyundai produce quality products.

Vladi

I'm all for domestic production of everything. Once we have that then something will eventually come out of it: either corporations will be taking less profit or labor will have to cut on luxury accessories such as fancy cellphones, tablets, TVs and cars. Or both but I think it's a good thing no matter what if live in isolation. On the other side of the world you have state sponsored mega business just waiting for your downfall and looking ways how to replace your purchasing power and empty manufacturing lines.

Johnhav430

My point is we don't live in a fantasy world. Look at the college scandal indicating how desperate folks are. Elite colleges....the average parent contributes $12,500--median. That means some contribute $0. Some contribute $30,000, of the $78,200 total yearly cost. For a typical middle middle class parent, $12,500. So we should all say, then our kids should go to such a school. The problem is the acceptance rate is 4.5%. It was 19% in my time. And legacy means less today than buying a library.

This effect imho is happening in so many aspects of our lives. My next door neighbor worked for the gas co. from out of the military to early 60's. He has a pension that is in the $6000/mo. range. He told me he inherited two sums of money. He is able to live like he did when he was working, and modestly I might add.

So here's where I'm going with my analogies. It would be as difficult for us to produce everything domestically, as it would for our kids to do us a solid favor and themselves--get accepted at an elite college whose list price is $78,200, yet costs their parents on average $12,500. Actually, that has a 4.5% chance of happening. Producing everything domestically I would say is maybe 1/1000th of a percent. We can't do it. If we insisted on producing the robots that work in a modern mil.+ warehouse domestically? The client would be out of business, they're smarter than that, they have to answer to Wall Street. They order the robots from China. Can we learn? Do we have any smart people in the USA? Of course we do. But it's not gonna be easy to get our boots on the ground, we're in another land right now concerned about Fortnite and X Box 1.

ronmaiden

A lot of the union stuff is a myth and no applicable to all unions. I've been in a union for over 20 years and am not overpaid and am certainly not lazy. Yeah,unions have their bad sides but mine has given me a competitive wage,realistic health insurance,pension and protection from being fired on a whim.

situman

Why would it be any different anywhere else? Why would anyone want to work more than they have to knowing full well their job is secure?

situman

If cars can be unionized, I bet they will stay on the showroom floor.

bagwell

yep, unions worked out great for Eastern Airlines and all their employees......wait

Johnhav430

Sounds realistic. I've often wondered, what if you actually enjoyed teaching kids? I am sure there are teachers who are not really interested in walking out and leaving kids high and dry. I am sure there are many examples of teachers who are not overpaid nor are they lazy.

I remember when I was 17 y.o. this guy saw I was a greenhorn and said work with me and we'll share tips. An old guy, I remember he said he was 31. My first thought was this guy wants to use me as his busboy, I bet. I was totally wrong. He wanted to show me the ropes and said he found 2 people working together can do more work and get more tips. We were the only guys, there were like 5 women who all fought one another....those were fun days.

Sulu

This discussion has gone so far off on so many tangents, I am not sure where to start.

What does the fact that the Blazer is built in Mexico have to do with how good a car it is? If assembly quality is bad, I can understand, but I doubt that assembly quality is bad enough for the normal buyer to notice. If the Blazer is a bad car, it is more than likely because it is a bad design (I cannot say for certain, since I have not looked at one), not because it was assembled in Mexico.

Why is it that each time auto assembly in Mexico is discussed, fingers start pointing at the auto unions, as though getting rid of the unions will magically bring down assembly line workers' wages from the average of $22 per hour in the USA to the average of $3 per hour in Mexico?

No employer in the USA will pay -- and no worker in the USA will accept -- only $3 per hour.

No other company in the USA pays as little as $3 per hour so nobody would want to work for any company that does.

Nobody in the USA can live on only $3 (equivalent to $6000 per year at 40 hours per week and 50 weeks a year). No individual lives on only $6000 per year with a second or third job, or support from friends or relatives.

Minimum wage laws regulate minimum pay at much higher levels than $3 per hour.

While it is possible to assemble vehicles without unions, if you do not wish for employees to unionize, treat them with respect and without antagonism, offer them good working conditions, and pay them fair, competitive wages and benefits. The Japanese auto transplants are excellent examples of this.

Toys4RJill

Many of the Mexican workers building cars in Mexico are represented by local unions.


I have never understood your argument about how nobody in the US or Canada would accept $3 an hour or whatever it is, nobody is suggesting that. The bigger picture (maybe you get it or maybe you don't) is that Marry Barra is shafting the US and Canada for cheap labor in Mexico. Perfectly legal? YES With the shareholder in mind? YES No regard for the workers they are laying off? YES Is it a bargaining chip? YES But she would not be doing that if there were higher wages in Mexico or significant tariffs to prevent it. The Mexican workers building the Blazer cannot and will never be able to afford the new Blazer...What a shame! You either have compassion for the situation or you don't.

There is an argument that smaller cars cannot be made in the US or Canada because of profit reasons, but a $35K-$50K SUV should be built in the US or Canada. While at the same time GM has decided to build the Blazer in Mexico, a few months later, 14,000 layoffs are result, then GM announces better than expected profits. My favorite brand is indeed Toyota, if they were to close the RAV4 plant in Cambridge and move it to Mexico, I would absolutely never, ever buy a RAV4 built in Mexico. I would never buy a Mexican built Tacoma Access cab.

There are some unavoidable circumstances where you can't avoid cheaply made items, there are things that you can only buy that are made in China etc etc....Some people like myself remember when Levi's jeans were made in the USA and Canada. Tupperware was made in Canada...My father tells me he had chainsaws that were made in Downsview Ontario...the speakers in husbands movie theater are proudly made in Canada.... If you do not care where your dinnerware, clothing, food, and cars are made, to me, that is a shame. But at least be aware of it.

Johnhav430

When you say care and be aware, do you mean just for sentimental reasons? For example I mentioned my CCM Super Tacks. They are made in Canada. I know the history of the Tackaberry last. If I lost these skates, and got a $1,000 pair made in China, yes, I would have remorse. More because you can't get a skate made in Canada anymore. I like seeing the maple leaf when I turn them over.

I have a TRIM toenail clipper that says USA. Can't get that anymore. A Swingline stapler, USA. Swing-A-Way can opener, USA. As mentioned, that Snap On tools are made in USA (hand tools) is sacred. Even Craftsman was USA until 2011 if memory serves me, fairly late in the game. I wouldn't replace a Craftsman ratchet because it's USA and its replacement would not be.

All this sentiment doesn't mean that auto manufacture is not legit in Mexico. Or robot production in China. Like I've said, if we had to rely upon USA made robots, we'd be in trouble right now. why not put effort into changing that, learn, develop, compete someday maybe 20 years from now, instead of insulting those who do it well is the way I see it....I mean we'd be like Volvo or Honda was in 1970 vs. the domestics in 1970, in that space.

Toys4RJill

I just say be aware in the sense that is good to know where something is made when making purchases. I applaud the individual who knows or is aware of positives and negatives of off-shoring something or closing plants and moving the production. There are two sides of who benefits, absolutely. There are situations where there is no choice to move production of something, and I respect that. In this case for GM, they very well could build the Blazer in the US or Canada. The Cruze I am not so sure if it is possible, GM is exporting Mexican built Cruze models all throughout the world, all while the Lordstown plant is idled. So they import the Blazer from Mexico... So to hell with Mary Barra and GM....I hope they lose sales for this decision.