Lexus: Still a luxury brand...or has it become a premium brand?
03-05-19, 07:37 PM
#16
Speaks French in Russian
Damn. It seems like every year we have a thread like this. I hate to be the one to say it, but if we still have to question the brands status as a luxury brand after all these years then maybe, just maybe they aren't where we expect them to be. The overwhelming response should be that it is. This thread so far is proving otherwise.
03-05-19, 08:47 PM
#17
Lexus Fanatic
Lexus seems to be hugging the low end of the lux segment and may even just be considered high premium with where they are going/where they have gone in the past few years.
I don't see Lexus as at the level of the Germans for a few reasons, bulk of German sales are still from Tier 1 RWD/F longitudinal vehicles on Tier 1 platforms with Tier 1 engines, Germans offer 10 and 12 cylinders on top sedans and offer more higher end vehicles, compete in a level above Lexus, Lexus nor any of the Japanese premium companies have the history, brand, image of the Germans.
The bulk of Lexus sales are from Toyota based vehicles, ES, RX, UX with more Toyota based powerplants. That does not seem to be changing any time soon and will likely increase while their more full Luxury vehicles sales fall and they may eliminate full luxury Tier 1 models like the GS, possibly RC. I don't think it is really insulting to Lexus, it is still a great brand but the Germans as a brand are playing on another level in most areas when it comes to Luxury, what they offer, etc over the Japanese Luxury brand, the one outlier is actually the Acura NSX now which performs and is priced at the top levels of what most of the Germans offer.
I don't see Lexus as at the level of the Germans for a few reasons, bulk of German sales are still from Tier 1 RWD/F longitudinal vehicles on Tier 1 platforms with Tier 1 engines, Germans offer 10 and 12 cylinders on top sedans and offer more higher end vehicles, compete in a level above Lexus, Lexus nor any of the Japanese premium companies have the history, brand, image of the Germans.
The bulk of Lexus sales are from Toyota based vehicles, ES, RX, UX with more Toyota based powerplants. That does not seem to be changing any time soon and will likely increase while their more full Luxury vehicles sales fall and they may eliminate full luxury Tier 1 models like the GS, possibly RC. I don't think it is really insulting to Lexus, it is still a great brand but the Germans as a brand are playing on another level in most areas when it comes to Luxury, what they offer, etc over the Japanese Luxury brand, the one outlier is actually the Acura NSX now which performs and is priced at the top levels of what most of the Germans offer.
03-05-19, 08:54 PM
#18
Lexus Fanatic
We also seem to be constantly comparing Lexus to the Germans. While Genesis is not a serious competitor to Lexus right now, I think it will be in the future. Genesis, today, in many ways, builds a vehicle like Lexus did back in the 1990s and early 2000s...excellence in fit/finish, material/hardware quality, and Swiss-Watch precision. And their popularity will grow as SUVs become available.
03-05-19, 09:31 PM
#19
Perhaps theres a space developing between the established Lux players and the Acura's of the world? Would Lexus fit in this space with say, Volvo and Jaguar? I think its fair to say all 3 makes are a step above Acura and Infiniti, but its debatable whether they share the same brand equity that MB and BMW do.
03-05-19, 11:18 PM
#20
I remember reading an article about Lexus around the time of the introduction. It covered some of the many tests the car that became the LS400 endured. Doors were mechanically slammed thousands of time to assure they stayed solid. The package shelf under the rear glass was subjected to the equivalent of 10 years of UV rays to be sure it would hold up. The famous ad with the wine glasses on the hood did not work the first time so the engineers redesigned the engine mounts. The "Relentless Pursuit of Perfection" was more than a slogan. The original Lexus was actually the best car in the world at the time. Second best was probably the Infiniti Q45 but it was doomed early by the ad campaign.
Is Lexus at the same place now? Of course not, but Toyota has the resources to restore it to that position. Do they have the will to bet on long term success as they did in 1989? The Limitless SUV is likely to be the new flagship for Lexus. Will they make it better than the GLS and Range Rover? I hope so.
Is Lexus at the same place now? Of course not, but Toyota has the resources to restore it to that position. Do they have the will to bet on long term success as they did in 1989? The Limitless SUV is likely to be the new flagship for Lexus. Will they make it better than the GLS and Range Rover? I hope so.
03-06-19, 05:36 AM
#21
Lexus Fanatic
Tough question because it's subjective. I would lean towards luxury, however, it's almost like Samsung and Apple. Samsung can build the better product, but even before say the S10 is out, it is free and $750 off (well that deal disappeared so lucky those who booked it). I would have said that could never happen with Apple although it did with the Xs. Lexus is like Samsung and BMW is like Apple. I am not saying Lexus builds the better product like Samsung, rather that no matter what Lexus or Samsung do, they can never even scratch the intangible aspect of BMW or Apple. People just like those products.
One issue is I don't believe that Lexus has the fanbase nor the loyalty nor the resources to be BMW. Ever been to a BMW driving event? They have this down pat. Ever been to a Lexus event? The people are really nice so I don't fault them, but the event itself is pathetic, like a GM event. They don't know what they're doing. (the last one with the LS500 they had a Cup that they wanted you to see and gave you a clear plastic bag with nothing but a cardboard certificate inside--how about a polo shirt? lol)
As far as research and cutting edge, man Lexus had that in 1989. They don't have it today.
And with my 2006 LS being my first Toyota product, it was eye opening to the fleecing that Toyota does. $137 list for a brake sensor wire, $34 on a BMW. I could go on with the prices of mirror glass, etc. etc. really jacked up prices. $76 for a PA state inspection when BMW gets $40 and gives a loaner. Some of these play into the original question. BMW does a state inspection on a car, for $40, and gives a loaner car for a day. Some Lexus dealers may do that but not any that I've been to in the Phila. area. The one near my house wasn't willing to order moonlight pearl touch up without me coming in first, said too many people order parts and never pick them up. Is that luxury? No, that's bush league!
No question in my mind Lexus is a good brand and the only Japanese make that could be considered luxury. I say it is, but it falls short to the other German brands mentioned. At the same time, I believe the age demographics with Lexus is closer to Buick than it is to BMW. The new LS500 has really demonstrated how the co. has lost its way.
One issue is I don't believe that Lexus has the fanbase nor the loyalty nor the resources to be BMW. Ever been to a BMW driving event? They have this down pat. Ever been to a Lexus event? The people are really nice so I don't fault them, but the event itself is pathetic, like a GM event. They don't know what they're doing. (the last one with the LS500 they had a Cup that they wanted you to see and gave you a clear plastic bag with nothing but a cardboard certificate inside--how about a polo shirt? lol)
As far as research and cutting edge, man Lexus had that in 1989. They don't have it today.
And with my 2006 LS being my first Toyota product, it was eye opening to the fleecing that Toyota does. $137 list for a brake sensor wire, $34 on a BMW. I could go on with the prices of mirror glass, etc. etc. really jacked up prices. $76 for a PA state inspection when BMW gets $40 and gives a loaner. Some of these play into the original question. BMW does a state inspection on a car, for $40, and gives a loaner car for a day. Some Lexus dealers may do that but not any that I've been to in the Phila. area. The one near my house wasn't willing to order moonlight pearl touch up without me coming in first, said too many people order parts and never pick them up. Is that luxury? No, that's bush league!
No question in my mind Lexus is a good brand and the only Japanese make that could be considered luxury. I say it is, but it falls short to the other German brands mentioned. At the same time, I believe the age demographics with Lexus is closer to Buick than it is to BMW. The new LS500 has really demonstrated how the co. has lost its way.
03-06-19, 08:31 AM
#22
Pole Position
Honestly, dont really know what Lexus is anymore. Sure they build some great cars, but they also have some ancient cars in the lineup. They also like to march to their own drum beat and ignoring industry trends and consumer needs sort of in their own little bubble so I dont really know which market segment Lexus is competing in or wants to compete in. They tout performance, yet the competition has more power and performance. They tout craftsmanship but yet, they have cars like the NX with creaky hard plastics. They claim to be "amazing" in their ads, but the only amazing thing about their lineup is how amazingly old they are. Reliability, sure.
03-06-19, 08:47 AM
#23
Lexus Fanatic
Honestly, dont really know what Lexus is anymore. Sure they build some great cars, but they also have some ancient cars in the lineup. They also like to march to their own drum beat and ignoring industry trends and consumer needs sort of in their own little bubble so I dont really know which market segment Lexus is competing in or wants to compete in. They tout performance, yet the competition has more power and performance. They tout craftsmanship but yet, they have cars like the NX with creaky hard plastics. They claim to be "amazing" in their ads, but the only amazing thing about their lineup is how amazingly old they are. Reliability, sure.
A plastic bag with a cardboard certificate, who the **** runs their marketing? Even the GM of the dealer near me joked about it when we went for a drive in the RX350-L. He brought it up, not me, so word got around.
03-06-19, 10:34 AM
#25
Honestly, dont really know what Lexus is anymore. Sure they build some great cars, but they also have some ancient cars in the lineup. They also like to march to their own drum beat and ignoring industry trends and consumer needs sort of in their own little bubble so I dont really know which market segment Lexus is competing in or wants to compete in. They tout performance, yet the competition has more power and performance. They tout craftsmanship but yet, they have cars like the NX with creaky hard plastics. They claim to be "amazing" in their ads, but the only amazing thing about their lineup is how amazingly old they are. Reliability, sure.
Things have evolved towards Tech+Luxury and lexus is dropping the ball on both ends. The upcoming 2nd generation Audi Q3 will embarrass what Lexus is trying to do in their triple play of SUV's of UX/NX/RX. The ES350 has been the best defining moment for them so far (not the LS500). The UX250h Fsport has been a most impressive compact SUV to date yet it costs approaching $45-47k means the price advantage of a better car is lost.
I think Kia/Genesis is stealing the 'perfection' 'sophistication' 'passion' and 'market' attention that Lexus covets. The languishing & outdated RX, more of the same GS, and rounded big box wannabe g-wagons are just not cutting it in today's competitive climate. Basically, Lexus is trapped into market follower status and 2-3 years behind everyone else.
What they do to compete against the Audi + BMW suv line up will define whether they can reclaim the luxury status or reassigned to premium status (a notch above toyota, yet below the Koreans). As soon as Kia & Genesis introduces a mind blown SUV experience, they will have to tip their hat to the Koreans who out innovated Lexus' turf. It is a matter of days before we get mind blown by a Model Y, which affects the whole suv market. I would not be surprised if it reaches 1 million sales within 3-4 years. The identity crisis is a real cancer within the company and it shows. The NX did not really advance the brand. The UX did not either. LS500 tried, maybe overreached. Bring on the Limitless platform and re-define the new way forward for mid to large suv's, or essentially become 'inflexible' and 'limited' by the market climate.
03-06-19, 11:09 AM
#29
Lexus Fanatic
But under what criteria did you come to this conclusion? What does Lexus need to change to move into luxury A?
