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Are hydrogen cars and Japanís commitment to them doomed?

 
Old 01-06-19, 10:15 PM
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bitkahuna
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Default Are hydrogen cars and Japanís commitment to them doomed?

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Old 01-07-19, 12:08 AM
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Interesting read. I dont know if anyone has been able to calculate the amount of CO2 released from the production of hydrogen, versus the release of greenhouse gasses through a lifecycle of a combustion engine, but I'm sure someone will do the math. I dont think it is really that hard to make hydrogen fueling stations as the article as suggested. I am fortunate enough to live in CA where there seems to be some activity here, with 1 station in San Francisco area currently and according to the map, a few more to pop up in the next year or two. Southern Cal seems to have multiple in operation.

I also find it funny that the article fails to mention any regard to how electricity is generated, or the fact that we have to create much larger battery packs in electric cars versus hydrogen ones. Im sure there are plenty of upstream emissions from those actions. A very one sided story being told, but good food for thought. Either way, like most things, economics will run its course and likely decide for us.
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Old 01-07-19, 06:26 AM
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But it’s not only about economics... govt incentives, tariffs, taxes, regulations all factor in ‘bigly’

Yes the article, like so many green ‘defenders of the [electric] flame’ has made electric cars an article of faith and a conclusion as the only way forward for everything. But what I found interesting is that Japan in 2014 i believe it said, made hydrogen their national plan, with their car makers on board, probably with huge govt incentives to do so. Maybe that explains why only toyota and honda seem to be doing much in this area...

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Old 01-07-19, 07:37 AM
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I'm not sure I agree with the premise of the article. Hydrogen itself is one of the most plentiful elements on the earth's surface....both in water and the atmosphere itself. Remember those electrolysis lab-experiments you did in chemistry class, where you accumulated oxygen at one terminal, and hydrogen on the other? Oceans of salt-water cover almost three-quarters of the planet....not to mention inland fresh water lakes. True, a large-scale infrastructure for de-salinization and electrolysis for obtaining the hydrogen would have to he developed, but the sooner we start on it, the quicker we can achieve it. So many people today are worried about climate change and the rising of the earth's sea levels. Why not start an industry, then, that will actually TAKE water out of the ocean and use it for a constructive purpose? In addition, during the electrolysis process, oxygen itself will be produced, which can then be re-released back into the atmosphere, which will help make up for the fact, that, because of development, we are cutting down so many forests and green plants that, by their nature, release oxygen into the air by photosynthesis. Oxygen can also be produced, from the electrolysis process, for air crews or for medical needs....such as people who have trouble breathing or low oxygen levels in their blood.

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Old 01-07-19, 09:39 AM
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What ever happened to CNG (Compressed natural gas) powered vehicles? My company 15 years ago purchased a fleet of Honda Civics converted to CNG and also the local bus company had CNG buses. I had 2 of these cars in my section and used them without any issues. You had to plan your trip to be able to refuel at the limited CNG stations.
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Old 01-07-19, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by RXSF View Post
I also find it funny that the article fails to mention any regard to how electricity is generated...
Hydrogen overwhelmingly comes from natural gas (the process uses electricity) or electrolysis using electricity.
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Old 01-07-19, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by mmarshall View Post
I'm not sure I agree with the premise of the article. Hydrogen itself is one of the most plentiful elements on the earth's surface....both in water and the atmosphere itself. Remember those electrolysis lab-experiments you did in chemistry class, where you accumulated oxygen at one terminal, and hydrogen on the other? Oceans of salt-water cover almost three-quarters of the planet....not to mention inland fresh water lakes. True, a large-scale infrastructure for de-salinization and electrolysis for obtaining the hydrogen would have to he developed, but the sooner we start on it, the quicker we can achieve it.
It doesn't matter how plentiful hydrogen is the molecule is atomically bonded to oxygen separating the two takes huge amounts of energy. Jupiter and Saturn have nearly incalculable amounts of hydrogen so let's build a pipeline problem solved right? There are asteroids with massive amounts of precious metals floating around in space, well I think you get the idea.
So many people today are worried about climate change and the rising of the earth's sea levels. Why not start an industry, then, that will actually TAKE water out of the ocean and use it for a constructive purpose?
The hydrogen will become part of the earths climate cycle and end up in the oceans anyway. Also sea levels are not rising contrary to what frauds like Al Gore want you to believe.
In addition, during the electrolysis process, oxygen itself will be produced, which can then be re-released back into the atmosphere, which will help make up for the fact, that, because of development, we are cutting down so many forests and green plants that, by their nature, release oxygen into the air by photosynthesis. Oxygen can also be produced, from the electrolysis process, for air crews or for medical needs....such as people who have trouble breathing or low oxygen levels in their blood.
Photosynthesis requires sunlight and carbon dioxide not oxygen increasing the latter on a large scale would harm plants.
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Old 01-07-19, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by RXSF View Post
Interesting read. I dont know if anyone has been able to calculate the amount of CO2 released from the production of hydrogen, versus the release of greenhouse gasses through a lifecycle of a combustion engine, but I'm sure someone will do the math. I dont think it is really that hard to make hydrogen fueling stations as the article as suggested. I am fortunate enough to live in CA where there seems to be some activity here, with 1 station in San Francisco area currently and according to the map, a few more to pop up in the next year or two. Southern Cal seems to have multiple in operation.

I also find it funny that the article fails to mention any regard to how electricity is generated, or the fact that we have to create much larger battery packs in electric cars versus hydrogen ones. Im sure there are plenty of upstream emissions from those actions. A very one sided story being told, but good food for thought. Either way, like most things, economics will run its course and likely decide for us.
it is because cleantechnica...
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Old 01-09-19, 11:54 AM
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Toyota just partnered with Kenworth Trucks, so probably not done yet

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/01/09/...l-cell-trucks/
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Old 01-10-19, 05:56 AM
  #10  
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I've seen this bit of kit in action. Very impressive:
http://www.itm-power.com/sectors/cle...iAAEgKXm_D_BwE

It makes Hydrogen on-site at the filling station using water and surplus renewable energy. Electricity that otherwise would be wasted is used and there are no transportation costs for the hydrogen.
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Old 01-10-19, 06:45 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by Lexus2000 View Post
It doesn't matter how plentiful hydrogen is the molecule is atomically bonded to oxygen separating the two takes huge amounts of energy. Jupiter and Saturn have nearly incalculable amounts of hydrogen so let's build a pipeline problem solved right? There are asteroids with massive amounts of precious metals floating around in space, well I think you get the idea.
Well, Big Andy just posted a mini-version of what I was suggesting above. I agree with him that it looks interesting.

Originally Posted by Big Andy
I've seen this bit of kit in action. Very impressive:
http://www.itm-power.com/sectors/cle...iAAEgKXm_D_BwE

It makes Hydrogen on-site at the filling station using water and surplus renewable energy. Electricity that otherwise would be wasted is used and there are no transportation costs for the hydrogen.

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Old 01-10-19, 10:12 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by mmarshall View Post
Well, Big Andy just posted a mini-version of what I was suggesting above. I agree with him that it looks interesting.
Electricity that otherwise would be wasted is used and there are no transportation costs for the hydrogen.
No need to waste it instead charge in home battery packs, or electric cars. Look, there is no scenario where hydrogen is more efficient than a BEV for example the Mirai gets equivalent of about 60mpg a Tesla gets 110+. In large trucks I can see hydrogen finding a place until battery tech improves, and that's the rub battery tech is steadily improving and what's quite funny if there will no doubt be hydrogen stations that use batteries to store the captured solar energy.

As for transportation costs electricity is extremely efficient to "transport".
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Old 01-10-19, 05:26 PM
  #13  
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so why did japan make a national bet on hydrogen?
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Old 01-10-19, 08:12 PM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by bitkahuna View Post
so why did japan make a national bet on hydrogen?
It's fairly complicated have a read
https://www.greentechmedia.com/artic...s-the-next-lng

It would be great if hydrogen production took a leap in efficiency among other things, anything is possible but currently it makes little sense. Hydrogen is no more a fuel than a battery pack so perhaps on a large scale it could be used as storage.

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Old 01-11-19, 06:57 PM
  #15  
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Very interesting, thanks.

can’t believe japan has half the country on 50hz and half on 60hz!

with nuke power out after fukushima, no local fossil fuel, long term commitment for hydrogen from LNG and thus no big commitment to renewables, and unlikelihood of changing course, i’d say they’re in trouble.
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