ArmyofOne

I was speaking domestically. Buick is redundant and irrelevant in the US Domestic Market.

This.
You didn't hear about the plans for a 4 door Mustang designed to compete with the A7/Panamera?

tex2670

What are you talking about? BMW makes their SUVs for the entire world in South Carolina. LHD and RHD. US regs/Euro Regs/etc. Just like they can assemble cars with different options in one plant, they can assemble them to meet different regs in the same plant too. No one is saying that GM would take cars off the showroom floors in China and ship them to the US.

My Mazda--made in Japan (which side of the road do they drive on?)
My BMW--made in S Africa
Prior Lexus--made in Japan
Prior Honda--made in Japan

Johnhav430

People here probably aren't old enough to remember but there was once a market for gray market cars. Far beyond cars and I think even as recently as 10 yrs. ago, this existed with cameras. And let's face it, when I buy a OE Lexus part on eBay for maybe 65%+ off list, it is genuine, but gray, that is, did not go through the American distributors.

Personally, I prefer that our standards are what they are, and would not want to open the floodgates so that you have to check if a car is USA or "rest of the world" when you go to purchase. Kinda like people who wanted German not Finnish made Boxsters. They had a near impossible task.

situman

So they are going to bring a low volume sedan into the market, after discontinuing pretty much all of their sedans that actually had volume. Bit of a head scratcher there and deservedly ignored.

Toys4RJill

ArmyofOne

I never said it was a smart business move. I am not sure what it would accomplish either, but here it is:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/fo...our-door-sedan

https://www.mustang6g.com/4-door-mus...ls-to-dealers/

https://www.motor1.com/news/273890/f...ang-four-door/

Toys4RJill

It is only a low volume sedan is sense that it is a spin off of the two door Mustang. For example, the two door F150 is also available in four door F150 design.. All coming from the same location. No different than a 2 door Civic or a 4 door Civic.

ArmyofOne

^this. Manufacturers make 2 door and 4 door models of many different cars, Ford does it with the Focus LOL.

mmarshall

No 2-door versions, though, of the Focus are sold in the U.S. Even the high-performance ST and RS versions are 5-door hatches. Same with the smaller Fiesta.

Toys4RJill

mmarshall

Back to the OT, Hey, there might (?) still be hope yet. GM has really opened up a hornet's nest with this announcement....big-time. I haven't seen the likes of it since Ford, thirty years ago, made plans to convert the RWD pony car Mustang to the FWD platform that undercut the Ford Probe and Mazda MX-6 sport-coupes....the outpouring of objection was enormous, and Ford was forced to keep RWD in the next re-design. Even Ford's recent decision to stop American sedan production, and, over twenty years ago, when GM converted the Arlington, TX plant from full-sized RWD sedan to SUV/Truck production, didn't get the reaction this announcement is getting. And, unlike Ford, GM got money from the Government to stay afloat, and many Senators and Congresspersons who voted for that bailout don't like what they are seeing.

This decision on the Mustang, of course, can't be directly compared to what GM is doing today (different time, different issues). But, this time, unlike with just one vehicle, it is a major action that would affect not only the customers of several different GM sedans (and many of them have bought those same sedans for decades), but the livelihood of over 15,000 workers and their families, on both sides of the border. Both President Trump and Prime Minister Trudeau have stepped into the picture, and are threatening major actions against GM over this (you didn't see that even over the Mustang). We'll see, but Mary Barra just may (?) just be forced, politically, to recant on the decision to close those plants...the alternative is to be butting heads with two heads of state and two heads of government, not to mention the U.S. Congress and the Canadian Parliament. In addition to that, Trump's own credibility is at stake...he promised, during the campaign, that U.S. workers would not lose a single plant under his Administration. So, my guess is that he uses the Presidential Bully Pulpit and jawbones both Ford and GM into keeping their sedan plants open....ditto for Trudeau. I certainly hope so.

MattyG

They both have stepped into the picture, but of course, they're both politicians and so as a symbolic gesture to their political bases; they have to be seen to be saying something. Talk is cheap. Trump has to reassure his voter base. Trudeau has to reassure the people who are at the very heart of the Canadian manufacturing industry which is also a large part of Canada's economy.

Yes, definitely this looks really really bad for GM and paints it as a heartless corporation running roughshod over the common man and woman after getting massive amounts of corporate welfare. PM Justin Trudeau actually doesn't have to worry too much about that because he never makes outright absolute statements about jobs in the same bombastic style that President Trump does.

btw the head of state of Canada is not the Prime Minister - it is the Queen of England. A relic of the colonial outpost history of Canada and the fact that it is a parliamentary confederation and a Commonwealth member. Just a tiny bit of trivia... very tiny indeed

As far as the Canadian side, don't expect too much from the federal or Ontario governments other than posturing because their actions speak louder than their words. Canadian and Ontario taxpayers lost a combined $3.5B after the governments divested their shares in GM, so the bailout worked to preserve jobs for thousands of workers but after that, it was a total loss. This was despite advice from Unifor to not sell those shares to Goldman Sachs (yes THAT Goldman Sachs). Jerry Dias the Unifor president said at the time that Canadian taxpayers should hold a minority interest in GM to steer the corporation's decisions. Now that can't happen since basically they're not at the table.

In another even more outrageous eg. FCA remade itself and now Canada will never recover $2B of bailout money that is owed to it by the "old Chrysler" because "new Chrysler" says it's a different company and doesn't need to pay back bailout money. Principal $1.25B and accrued interest all quietly written off this spring and just discovered by inquiring minds last month. You can't have much faith in politicians when they do things like this behind the scenes while the puppet theater goes on in front of the cameras.

GM is now being guided by activist shareholders who hold massive amounts of the company's shares and they don't like the fact that the share value hasn't gone up to their expectations. So they're demanding action. 8-10 percent margin on each vehicle is not good enough for them. This is Wall Street and the titans speaking to GM vs the politicians and worker unions.

mmarshall

Talk can indeed be cheap.....but, remember, Trump is a billionaire .



True, he has a different speaking style from Trump, but much of the same responsibilities, though he presides over a much smaller population and economy in Canada.

It also paints GM (perhaps correctly in this case) as a large corporation that cares more about simple numbers than they do about pleasing the customers (primarily older ones) that have stuck by them for many years, buying big Buick and Cadillac sedans. I know some of them who have been doing it continuously for as much as 30-40 years....same big cars from GM, over and over. Their numbers have deceased (and some have died off), but they are still very much a reality.

Almost twenty years ago, they did the same thing at Saturn....basically screwed the devoted customers of the S-class plastic-body compacts, who were so devoted it was almost like a cult (and those cars were indeed ingenious and practical in a number of ways). They completely forgot their loyal base, tried to turn the Division into a motley organization selling conventional vehicles originating from all over the place, and the rest is history.


Yeah....sorry about that. The U.S. combines both of those functions (Head of State, Head of Government) into one person.....the President. The British Commonwealths don't. Still, If I was Marry Barra, I wouldn't want to tangle with any of them LOL.

GM's leadership, after the buyout, was quite good, and, unlike her predecessors, Mary Barra made a string of generally good decisions for the company, even if I disagreed with or didn't like some of them. But this decision to close down the Hamtramck plant is a disaster.....Trump and Trudeau wouldn't be involved if it wasn't.


Chrysler, though, apparently thought things through a little more carefully than GM. The late Sergio Marchionne (RIP....before he passed away) was under pressure to ax the Chrysler division....it was, as is, down to two basic vehicles, the 300 and Pacifica. But, Marchonne realized that, after axing the Eagle and Plymouth divisions (same as GM axing Saab/Saturn/Pontiac/Hummer, and Ford axing Mercury, doing the same to the Chrysler Division would simply be too much, and the company would have repercussions wth the public...and perhaps the government. So, he did the right thing and kept Chrysler.

I'm not against investors making a reasonable return (I'm an investor myself...have been for decades)...but there is such a thing as greed, and greed has been the downfall of many. It is not listed among the Seven Deadly Sins for nothing.

Toys4RJill

This is a very good analysis of the situation.

It is interesting that GM left after all the past help they got while the Federal Government this year gave Toyota money for one or both of their Ontario plants.

I don't think Trump will talk all that much about these loses going forward. These loses hit right in the heartland of where he said job would be pouring back. The plant in Ohio is closing, it is the same plant he held a rally in or something along those lines.

Toys4RJill

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/new...wn/2137873002/

Ohio tried to stop General Motors from leaving Lordstown. It didn't work.

It was late May when U.S. Sen. Sherrod Brown picked up the phone to cold-call General Motors CEO Mary Barra.

Brown, Ohio's senior senator, was worried about the Lordstown plant, a 52-year-old factory that has produced compact cars from the Pontiac Firebird and Chevrolet Cavalier and to the Chevrolet Cruze while employing thousands in northeast Ohio's Mahoning Valley.

On April 13, GM announced that the company would cut second shift – eliminating 1,500 jobs and leaving the factory with just one shift, down from three just 16 months earlier.

Brown, a Democrat, penned a scathing letter, questioning how GM had spent its money from the GOP tax cut. Little response. So Brown picked up the phone without an appointment and called Barra. He couldn't get through.

When the two connected via phone three days later, Barra told Brown that retooling the factory, which was built for small cars, would be too expensive.

Please, just make a public statement that you're committed to Lordstown, Brown pushed during a June 5 meeting with Barra in Brown's Washington D.C. office. Barra was non-committal.

That was the last time Brown spoke with GM's CEO. Five months later, Barra announced GM would end production at five plants in the U.S. and Canada, eliminating passenger cars such as the Chevy Cruze and potentially wiping out thousands of jobs. The Lordstown factory alone employs 1,400 workers who will lose their jobs if the plant isn't repurposed.

The announcement shook the Mahoning Valley. The grim news harkened back to Sept. 19, 1977, when steel producer Youngstown Sheet and Tube laid off 5,000 workers in one day. It's known locally as "Black Monday."

Black Monday had come again.

And Ohio's leaders were shocked. Time and time again, top officials in Columbus and Washington D.C. had reached out to GM – concerned about the plant's dwindling workforce – to seek answers or offer help.

It's not like Ohio had not helped before. Over the years, the state had given GM millions in tax credits, job training grants and other incentives, including an $82 million tax package in 2008 that was among the largest in state history.

Gov. John Kasich had set up JobsOhio, Ohio's privately run workforce development arm fueled by money from state liquor sales, for this very purpose: to attract and retain business in the state.

Still, Ohio's Republican Sen. Rob Portman was left making repeated calls. What's happening? Will you commit to re-purposing the plant if Cruze sales dip? What can we do to help?

Ohio's requests were met with silence and stonewalling

'We didn't have any warning'

Layoffs. A union consolidation. Lagging sales of the Cruze. A popular SUV being built in Mexico instead of the Midwest. Anyone watching the Lordstown factory closely could guess that all wasn't well.

In January 2017, GM suspended third shift at the Lordstown plant, eliminating 1,245 jobs. The reason: more people were buying SUVs and trucks than cars. For a factory that made the compact Cruze, that was a problem.

For a few months, all was quiet. Then, in April 2018, GM offered buyouts and early retirement: about 600 people took the offer, according to the Youngstown Vindicator. Weeks later, GM announced it would cut second shift at the Lordstown plant: another 1,500 jobs.

On the same day that those workers finished their final shift, GM announced it would build its new Chevrolet Blazer in Mexico. The cruel irony wasn't lost on the Ohio workers leaving with their pink slips, said Dave Green, president of United Auto Workers Local 1112.

Two weeks ago, the plant's union, along with state and local politicians, launched the grassroots Drive it Home campaign to push for more jobs at the plant. (The next day, GM's board approved the cost-savings plan behind closed doors.)

Union leaders were hopeful. This layoff, that cut or this change would save the plant. For a little pain now, they would keep the doors open. And surely GM would give them some warning.

Perhaps that's why after months of cuts and GM's leaders' hesitance to commit to the Lordstown plant's future, Monday's announcement still managed to shock everyone.

"We didn’t have any warning that this was going to happen at all," Green said.

For a key Mahoning Valley employer, couldn't the state have pitched in some money or a tax break? Something, anything to keep GM from idling the plant?

They did.

Under Democratic Gov. Ted Strickland, Ohio offered GM a massive incentive in 2008: 75 percent off its income taxes for up to 15 years. Worth up to $82 million, the tax package helped renovate the plant to make the Cruze.

At the time, gas prices were high, and consumers were looking for fuel-efficient vehicles.

The plant added 200 new jobs by 2010 and added more in the following years – until 2017. Jobs were cut that year so no tax breaks were doled out, according to the Ohio Development Services Agency.

To date, GM received $14.2 million in credits to apply to taxes for making jobs and $46.1 million for retaining jobs.

Under Kasich, GM received grants to purchase equipment and train employees.

Kasich's JobsOhio had been talking with GM about its plans for the facility since Lordstown went from three shifts to two.

Incentives were offered. Is there something we could do to lower your energy costs? To help you with the workforce? To expedite permitting to retool the plant?

“They appreciated it, but nothing really came from it,” Kasich said Wednesday. "We have JobsOhio. They’ll keep meeting with them and seeing what we can do."

As a private entity, JobsOhio does not make details and costs for its deals public until they are final and executed.

GM spokesman Pat Morrissey told The Enquirer that the company made its decision based on market conditions and customer preferences, which increasingly means crossovers, SUVs and trucks.

"Obviously this is a market dynamic Ohio officials could not control," Morrissey said.

Still, Ohio has some experience with convincing auto companies to stay.

In 2014, Fiat Chrysler threatened to move production of the Jeep Wrangler out of Toledo. Fiat Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne had told the Paris Auto Show he didn't think a new aluminum-body Wrangler could be built at the plant.

Local and state officials lobbied Marchionne over several months. They offered to buy land to grow the plant. Kasich had "a lot of calls" with the CEO.

"We ended up working it out, and there ended up being more jobs in Toledo than when we started," Kasich said.

Since Monday's announcement, President Donald Trump has , and https://www.wsj.com/articles/transcript-of-president-trumps-interview-with-the-wall-street-journal-1543272091?mod=searchresults&page=1&pos=1&mod=article_inline, a possible opponent in 2020, for failing to represent Ohio.

But Brown and Portman, along with their staffs, had been reaching out to GM for months, seeking answers and offering solutions.

In fact, Brown called Trump in late June, asking the president to help workers in the Mahoning Valley, who had overwhelmingly supported Trump's presidential bid.

But Trump didn't realize that a shift had been cut, Brown said.

Portman said he had talked with GM over the past several months and emphasized the company would save money under the new tax law by keeping operations in Lordstown instead of moving them to Mexico.

He said the company was “unwilling” to be specific with him about what’s next, but he hopes it will involve putting an electric car in the plant.

“Ohio and the federal government working together might be able to provide some incentives for a reinvestment in Lordstown again,” Portman said.

Both Brown and Portman say GM never brought up tariffs on steel and aluminum, imposed by Trump, in their discussions about the Lordstown plant.

On Wednesday, Brown spoke with Trump and sent him a copy of his bill to incentivize American auto sales with by offering a $3,500 discount on nearly 100 cars and trucks and fully taxing auto companies’ overseas profits.

Brown said Trump “said the right things” Wednesday night but needs to follow it up with action.

If Ohio can't keep GM in Lordstown, are other auto jobs in jeopardy?

Maybe not. Many of Ohio's remaining factories mostly assemble trucks and SUVs – vehicles with higher profit margins. For example, Fiat Chrysler's Toledo plants make the Jeep Wrangler and Jeep Cherokee. Ford's Avon Lake factory west of Cleveland assembles trucks such as the F-650 and F-750 and E-series vans.

Ford's transmission plant in Sharonville actually hired workers earlier this year.

The only other Ohio plant quite so dependent on the car is Honda's Marysville plant, home of the Honda Accord since 1982.

Honda, which employs 15,000 people in Ohio, is the state's top manufacturer and largest auto employer. GM is eighth among manufacturing employers and third among auto employers behind Honda and Fiat Chrysler.

Accord sales are down this year despite awards and positive reviews for the vehicle – underscoring the American consumer's shift toward trucks and SUVs.

But Honda cut production in Marysville earlier this year rather than eliminating jobs to offset the sluggish sales. Honda leaders are proud that they've never had a layoff.

And the Marysville plant recently started production of the Honda CR-V.

"That’s part of our flexible manufacturing approach," Honda spokesman Chris Abbruzzese said.

Kasich, U.S. Rep. Tim Ryan and others spoke with GM's Barra Thursday. Governor-elect Mike DeWine has been talking with JobsOhio and Portman and plans to meet with GM in Detroit in January after he's sworn into office.

Ohio's leaders see a couple paths forward for the Lordstown plant: bring in another GM vehicle or repurpose the facility for another product from another company. The state did this when Fuyao Glass America started operations in the former GM plant near Dayton.

GM officials say they remain committed to manufacturing in Ohio. Many of the workers will have the option of working in another GM plant, spokesman Morrissey said.

Green, leader of the union, is hopeful state and federal leaders will work out a solution for Lordstown.

"We’re going to continue to have hope and press forward," Green said. "We want to keep building a great American product here in America."

That is if GM will pick up the phone.