GM closing Ontario, Detroit, and Ohio factories
#376
Lexus Champion
Originally Posted by SW17LS
The Government's investment to save GM was not to benefit its shareholders and executives, it was because they wanted to save the jobs of all of GM's workers in the midst of the recession. It wasn't corporate welfare at all, it was entirely self serving.
What exactly would you like to see GM do for these workers and these communities?
What exactly would you like to see GM do for these workers and these communities?
GM used the threat of massive chaos and layoffs to ask the government for the bail-in, much as Wall Street asked for help to protect investors. The workers were used as pawns to bolster the case for help. Don't forget it was the Bush Republicans and subsequently the Obama Democrats who extended the lifelines. You make it sound like this is something other than the taxpayer propping up a company that was "too big to fail".
Yes jobs needed to be saved but that's due to the fact that the workers vastly outnumbered the executive class. Of course there was an interest on the part of the unions, politicians and executives. Where did that get the unions who helped GM... and the communities that helped boost the bottom line?
Let's turn your question around to what it should be: what loyalty do you think GM owes to these workers and the towns and cities where it derived profits? Because if you think there is nothing that can or should be done, then maybe your next Lexus should be built in China or [fill in the blank] country and exported back to you at the cheapest possible price and profit margin.
#377
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
The Government's investment to save GM was not to benefit its shareholders and executives, it was because they wanted to save the jobs of all of GM's workers in the midst of the recession. It wasn't corporate welfare at all, it was entirely self serving.
What exactly would you like to see GM do for these workers and these communities?
What exactly would you like to see GM do for these workers and these communities?
So a massive taxpayer funded loan isn't a form of welfare? What is welfare? It's the government coming to your aid when you are in imminent danger of becoming indigent. Extend that out to what GM said it was facing and voila. Corporate welfare/bail-in. Don't think for a minute that the leadership wasn't looking out for its own interests here.
GM used the threat of massive chaos and layoffs to ask the government for the bail-in, much as Wall Street asked for help to protect investors. The workers were used as pawns to bolster the case for help. Don't forget it was the Bush Republicans and subsequently the Obama Democrats who extended the lifelines. You make it sound like this is something other than the taxpayer propping up a company that was "too big to fail".
Yes jobs needed to be saved but that's due to the fact that the workers vastly outnumbered the executive class. Of course there was an interest on the part of the unions, politicians and executives. Where did that get the unions who helped GM... and the communities that helped boost the bottom line?
Let's turn your question around to what it should be: what loyalty do you think GM owes to these workers and the towns and cities where it derived profits? Because if you think there is nothing that can or should be done, then maybe your next Lexus should be built in China or [fill in the blank] country and exported back to you at the cheapest possible price and profit margin.
GM used the threat of massive chaos and layoffs to ask the government for the bail-in, much as Wall Street asked for help to protect investors. The workers were used as pawns to bolster the case for help. Don't forget it was the Bush Republicans and subsequently the Obama Democrats who extended the lifelines. You make it sound like this is something other than the taxpayer propping up a company that was "too big to fail".
Yes jobs needed to be saved but that's due to the fact that the workers vastly outnumbered the executive class. Of course there was an interest on the part of the unions, politicians and executives. Where did that get the unions who helped GM... and the communities that helped boost the bottom line?
Let's turn your question around to what it should be: what loyalty do you think GM owes to these workers and the towns and cities where it derived profits? Because if you think there is nothing that can or should be done, then maybe your next Lexus should be built in China or [fill in the blank] country and exported back to you at the cheapest possible price and profit margin.
#378
Lexus Champion
The bailouts go wider than just the employees at the plants.
All of what you say is correct. However it is clear GM wants out of these factories, there is nothing wrong with that as well. NAFTA has made it too easy to build in Mexico. Toyota will eventually follow. . Most people really do not care GM is leaving. In a twist of fate, Toyota was given over $130 million for their Ontario plant not long ago.
All of what you say is correct. However it is clear GM wants out of these factories, there is nothing wrong with that as well. NAFTA has made it too easy to build in Mexico. Toyota will eventually follow. . Most people really do not care GM is leaving. In a twist of fate, Toyota was given over $130 million for their Ontario plant not long ago.
It's a question of why the corporate sector has normalized the idea that there is no real obligation to act ethically and responsibly once the profits have all been mined out. GM is not in any real trouble is it? It is posting profits, yet it now wants to still keep shutting down and outsourcing? It was doing that before it received the bailouts. What's going to happen if it decides that pickups can be made in, say Bangladesh, by child laborers, assisted by robotic manufacturing? Outrageous, obviously but not too far fetched given the behavior of lobbyists, and interests that can never get enough money to pad the bottom line.
One thing about the bailouts and the present situation. CEOs and the executive class compensation is closely tied to profit and shareholder results. Whose interests are these people looking after? Their multimillion dollar pay packages or the interests of the communities the company manufactures the products in?
#379
Lexus Fanatic
So a massive taxpayer funded loan isn't a form of welfare? What is welfare? It's the government coming to your aid when you are in imminent danger of becoming indigent. Extend that out to what GM said it was facing and voila. Corporate welfare/bail-in. Don't think for a minute that the leadership wasn't looking out for its own interests here.
And just because you loan people money doesn't mean you own them, and certainly not once the money has been repaid with interest as it has been in this case.
Let's turn your question around to what it should be: what loyalty do you think GM owes to these workers and the towns and cities where it derived profits? Because if you think there is nothing that can or should be done, then maybe your next Lexus should be built in China or [fill in the blank] country and exported back to you at the cheapest possible price and profit margin.
As for "my next Lexus should be made in China". Quiet frankly...I don't care where its made. Every Lexus I have ever had has been made in Japan, so I'm not sure where your argument is going. In fact, I specifically urged my friend who just bought an ES to chose the one he did because it was built in Japan and not in America.
#380
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
#381
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
This is a good article. GM will still be Oshawa's #1 employer when the plant closes.
https://torontosun.com/news/local-ne...r-one-employer
https://torontosun.com/news/local-ne...r-one-employer
#382
Lexus Champion
Of course the leadership was looking out for their own interests, my point was that the purpose of the bailout was to save the jobs, not to save GM.
And just because you loan people money doesn't mean you own them, and certainly not once the money has been repaid with interest as it has been in this case.
And just because you loan people money doesn't mean you own them, and certainly not once the money has been repaid with interest as it has been in this case.
That's not the fault of the unions or their workers. It's the fault of the management who then went hat in hand to the taxpayer. If the labor was overpriced then that management had years and years to act earlier.
What loyalty do they have? They don't have a level of loyalty where they should continue to operate plants they don't need simply to employ workers. The world just doesn't work that way. We need to help people prepare for the jobs of the future, nit artificially prop up jobs of the past when they just don't make sense anymore. Manufacturing in the US is dead and dying, thats just a fact.
As for "my next Lexus should be made in China". Quiet frankly...I don't care where its made. Every Lexus I have ever had has been made in Japan, so I'm not sure where your argument is going. In fact, I specifically urged my friend who just bought an ES to chose the one he did because it was built in Japan and not in America.
#383
Lexus Champion
If you missed it, the argument is going to something called, race to the bottom. If it's ok with you, then maybe child laborers will build your next car, Lexus or otherwise. As for the "made in Japan" bit; did you not get the irony in your statement? Japan doesn't lay off its auto workers and reassigns its surplus labor. Japan also provides health care as well. So you're supporting a different capitalist market yet you want their product while praising the virtues of this market that you obviously benefit from.
It would only become big news when that plant collapses and pictures filter out to North America of poor, distraught mothers weeping at the edge of the disaster pit awaiting news of their lost sons or daughters. Then, there would be a lot of handwringing here in North America as we have a great, collective "uh-oh" moment, and start screaming to demand audits of, and explanations from, the guilty automaker. There will be the usual "oh, we are so sorry, but we are not guilty" pleas from senior management.
How soon we forget the Joe Fresh-Rana Plaza collapse in Bangladesh.
#384
Lexus Fanatic
If you missed it, the argument is going to something called, race to the bottom. If it's ok with you, then maybe child laborers will build your next car, Lexus or otherwise. As for the "made in Japan" bit; did you not get the irony in your statement? Japan doesn't lay off its auto workers and reassigns its surplus labor. Japan also provides health care as well. So you're supporting a different capitalist market yet you want their product while praising the virtues of this market that you obviously benefit from.
What you're saying is great in a perfect world, but the world is not perfect. We don't do anybody any good in the long term by trying to pretend manufacturing most things in the US still makes sense.
#385
Lexus Fanatic
What you're saying is great in a perfect world, but the world is not perfect. We don't do anybody any good in the long term by trying to pretend manufacturing most things in the US still makes sense.
Last edited by mmarshall; 01-12-19 at 12:06 PM.
#386
Lexus Fanatic
Well, the more jobs and plants we move out of the U.S., certainly the less-perfect we make our own country. Just imagine if we had done this before we had to fight World War II. Much of the credit for winning that conflict goes to the fact that so much of our manufacturing for war-goods (and for supplying our allies) was done here at home, from the steel plants in Pittsburgh and Cleveland, to rubber tires in Akron, to shipbuilding on both coasts, to tank and Jeep manufacture in auto plants (Ford also built large B-24 bombers), to aircraft manufacturing all over the country, and to what we developed here at home, top-secret, for the Manhattan Project. Where is it now? Because of a number of factors, among them corporate greed and an obsession with low wages, most of it has simply gone....and we may also be gone if we ever have to depend on it again in a national emergency. Trump has brought a little of it back (not much) but there is still a lot to be done.
#387
Lexus Fanatic
#388
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
What I want is the best built product, regardless of where it's made. The reason I prefer a Japanese built product is that for me it feels better built.
What you're saying is great in a perfect world, but the world is not perfect. We don't do anybody any good in the long term by trying to pretend manufacturing most things in the US still makes sense.
What you're saying is great in a perfect world, but the world is not perfect. We don't do anybody any good in the long term by trying to pretend manufacturing most things in the US still makes sense.
#389
Lexus Fanatic
You’re multiple generations behind the times here.
#390
Lexus Fanatic
You need to read your history. The reason why we needed to build all of that artillary for WWII was because we didn’t have it. We have an established military now. It was just a scenario that would not exist in the modern world in modern times.
You’re multiple generations behind the times here.
Thank You, but I am well-versed in Aviation history. Ever been to the National Air and Space Museum? I was once a tour-guide there. This is probably not the best thread to discuss that, though......we may be getting off-topic with plant-closures.