BMW G20 3 Series
10-11-18, 07:19 PM
#91
Lexus Champion
Actually - the range is significantly less than 4 inches. All BMW tutorials that describe the BMW digital key puts the phone no more than 2 inch away from the door handle.
But lets say - it is 4 inches. Lets say you have the new G05 BMW X5. How are you going to align the phone that's in your pocket to the door handle? Are you going to jump if you are shorter than 5ft 8in (average male height in the USA)?
The point is - you still gotta take your phone because a situation where your phone perfectly aligns with the NFC on the door handle is extremely low. Essentially your car door handle and hip area have to match. Then you have to put the phone on a charging platform before pushing the start button.
This, in total, is not more convenient than the modern day key fob.
The thing is NFC in clothing is not the issue here. The BMW Digital Key doesn't pair with clothes. Only Android NFC for now.
But I'll agree with you here - NFC accessories and watches are a good way to solve the proximity issue but it brings up another issue - it'll force people to wear rings, bracelets, watches and etc... Some people just don't like wearing those. And isn't the point of the Digital Key to make one less thing you have to carry? Adding it to an accessory, that not all people will want to have on them, removes the idea the digital key is trying to achieve - which is "making one less thing for people to carry."
I believe that one day in the future keys will be the thing of the pass. But the BMW digital key is going to be a gimmick that will get looked pass like Apple Pay and Samsung Pay. Majority of the population still use credit cards. We have to look for a solution that makes it an innovation situation forward.
We have to keep the idea of not taking anything out to unlock/lock the car and start the car.
We have to keep the idea of not forcing someone to have an extra item on themselves at the same time.
But lets say - it is 4 inches. Lets say you have the new G05 BMW X5. How are you going to align the phone that's in your pocket to the door handle? Are you going to jump if you are shorter than 5ft 8in (average male height in the USA)?
The point is - you still gotta take your phone because a situation where your phone perfectly aligns with the NFC on the door handle is extremely low. Essentially your car door handle and hip area have to match. Then you have to put the phone on a charging platform before pushing the start button.This, in total, is not more convenient than the modern day key fob.
The thing is NFC in clothing is not the issue here. The BMW Digital Key doesn't pair with clothes. Only Android NFC for now.
But I'll agree with you here - NFC accessories and watches are a good way to solve the proximity issue but it brings up another issue - it'll force people to wear rings, bracelets, watches and etc... Some people just don't like wearing those. And isn't the point of the Digital Key to make one less thing you have to carry? Adding it to an accessory, that not all people will want to have on them, removes the idea the digital key is trying to achieve - which is "making one less thing for people to carry."
I believe that one day in the future keys will be the thing of the pass. But the BMW digital key is going to be a gimmick that will get looked pass like Apple Pay and Samsung Pay. Majority of the population still use credit cards. We have to look for a solution that makes it an innovation situation forward.
We have to keep the idea of not taking anything out to unlock/lock the car and start the car.
We have to keep the idea of not forcing someone to have an extra item on themselves at the same time.
Last edited by Sulu; 10-12-18 at 06:05 AM.
10-11-18, 08:32 PM
#92
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
10-11-18, 09:10 PM
#93
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
https://appleinsider.com/articles/18...d-for-payments
I can see the benefits and disadvantages of this 'phone key'. Question, does the BMW still come with a standard key fob? What if my phone is dead? With the Lexus, if the key fob is dead you just pull out the key shank, open the door, and touch the dead key fob to the start button as the failsafe. With Jaguar you take the dead key and put it into a slot and it charges it (at least that's how the XF was I drove a few years ago). What is protocol on the bimmer?
No. This BMW digital key comes as a "Comfort Package" - which removes the physical key all together. I'm not sure what is BMW's back up in case the phone dies or goes missing. Maybe it has a credit card style car like Tesla? I'm not 100% sure here.
Actually - a real Luddite would be for this technology because it goes backwards in innovation. Please explain to me how having to take your phone to unlock the car is an advancement over not taking out anything at all?
I think you seem to be for anything that's new. Because new is great, right?
And, yup, I definitely go on and on about. I went on about it for 2 post exactly and that's definitely too much. When my second post about it was in response to you.
Last edited by BippuLexus; 10-11-18 at 09:16 PM.
10-12-18, 04:27 AM
#94
Lexus Fanatic
Exactly. Thanks.
Apple Pay is a gimmick because globally it only has 127 million users but only 16% of that 127 million actually use it. On top of that - only 5% of Americans use it. Its a gimmick because very few people uses it. People still prefer credit cards 90% of the time.
https://appleinsider.com/articles/18...d-for-payments
Apple Pay is a gimmick because globally it only has 127 million users but only 16% of that 127 million actually use it. On top of that - only 5% of Americans use it. Its a gimmick because very few people uses it. People still prefer credit cards 90% of the time.
https://appleinsider.com/articles/18...d-for-payments
10-12-18, 04:38 AM
#95
Lexus Fanatic
Exactly. Thanks.
Apple Pay is a gimmick because globally it only has 127 million users but only 16% of that 127 million actually use it. On top of that - only 5% of Americans use it. Its a gimmick because very few people uses it. People still prefer credit cards 90% of the time.
https://appleinsider.com/articles/18...d-for-payments
I can see the benefits of this digital key if its done right only. However - my point is - if BMW digital key makes you take out your phone to unlock the car (similar to taking out your key to unlock your car) and then put the phone into charging station (similar to putting the key into the ignition) - then how is that innovation when the modern key fob of today its replacing required you not to take out anything at all?
No. This BMW digital key comes as a "Comfort Package" - which removes the physical key all together. I'm not sure what is BMW's back up in case the phone dies or goes missing. Maybe it has a credit card style car like Tesla? I'm not 100% sure here.
Actually - a real Luddite would be for this technology because it goes backwards in innovation. Please explain to me how having to take your phone to unlock the car is an advancement over not taking out anything at all?
No. I don't "slam" anything new. I actually think Tesla's digital key is a better idea. Using bluetooth is better than NFC. Getting into a Tesla Model 3 does not require you taking out your phone.
I think you seem to be for anything that's new. Because new is great, right?
And, yup, I definitely go on and on about. I went on about it for 2 post exactly and that's definitely too much. When my second post about it was in response to you.
Apple Pay is a gimmick because globally it only has 127 million users but only 16% of that 127 million actually use it. On top of that - only 5% of Americans use it. Its a gimmick because very few people uses it. People still prefer credit cards 90% of the time.
https://appleinsider.com/articles/18...d-for-payments
I can see the benefits of this digital key if its done right only. However - my point is - if BMW digital key makes you take out your phone to unlock the car (similar to taking out your key to unlock your car) and then put the phone into charging station (similar to putting the key into the ignition) - then how is that innovation when the modern key fob of today its replacing required you not to take out anything at all?
No. This BMW digital key comes as a "Comfort Package" - which removes the physical key all together. I'm not sure what is BMW's back up in case the phone dies or goes missing. Maybe it has a credit card style car like Tesla? I'm not 100% sure here.
Actually - a real Luddite would be for this technology because it goes backwards in innovation. Please explain to me how having to take your phone to unlock the car is an advancement over not taking out anything at all?
No. I don't "slam" anything new. I actually think Tesla's digital key is a better idea. Using bluetooth is better than NFC. Getting into a Tesla Model 3 does not require you taking out your phone.
I think you seem to be for anything that's new. Because new is great, right?
And, yup, I definitely go on and on about. I went on about it for 2 post exactly and that's definitely too much. When my second post about it was in response to you.
10-12-18, 06:41 AM
#96
Super Moderator
Actually - the range is significantly less than 4 inches. All BMW tutorials that describe the BMW digital key puts the phone no more than 2 inch away from the door handle.
But lets say - it is 4 inches. Lets say you have the new G05 BMW X5. How are you going to align the phone that's in your pocket to the door handle? Are you going to jump if you are shorter than 5ft 8in (average male height in the USA)? The point is - you still gotta take your phone because a situation where your phone perfectly aligns with the NFC on the door handle is extremely low.
But lets say - it is 4 inches. Lets say you have the new G05 BMW X5. How are you going to align the phone that's in your pocket to the door handle? Are you going to jump if you are shorter than 5ft 8in (average male height in the USA)?
The point is - you still gotta take your phone because a situation where your phone perfectly aligns with the NFC on the door handle is extremely low.
At work, I leave my prox card in my wallet and never take my wallet out of my pocket to open doors.
Alternatively, the new BMW Key Card will be available from November 2018. This sophisticated key card likewise has NFC technology and therefore offers the same functionality as a similarly equipped smartphone.
They reason the other articles specify Android smartphones is to distinguish that this won't work with an iPhone. Apple only allows NFC to be used for Apple Pay, nothing else. If they're offering a card, there's no technical reason that would prevent anything with an NFC tag from being paired. There might be other restrictions, but we don't know that yet.
As a sidebar, it is incredibly ironic that one's smartphone needs to be an Android to unlock and start the car, but has to be an iPhone to integrate with the infotainment.
But I'll agree with you here - NFC accessories and watches are a good way to solve the proximity issue but it brings up another issue - it'll force people to wear rings, bracelets, watches and etc... Some people just don't like wearing those. And isn't the point of the Digital Key to make one less thing you have to carry? Adding it to an accessory, that not all people will want to have on them, removes the idea the digital key is trying to achieve - which is "making one less thing for people to carry."
If it's just an additional, optional way of unlocking/starting a car, then it could add convenience on a situational basis. For example, when I pick my son up from Taekwondo, I often don't even bother to put my shoes on. My phone is already in my hand (because he called me), so I could head straight out the door without worrying about grabbing my keys.
Last edited by geko29; 10-12-18 at 06:54 AM.
10-12-18, 09:43 AM
#97
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Again - I didn't say paying with your phone isn't the future. I'm saying, right now, its a gimmick. Even Tim Cook himself is surprised by the extremely slow integration of Apple Pay. Their marketing department and Apple Pay department are trying to find more ways to people to adopt.
The issue here - is that we need to see all restaurants and stores allow Apple Pay and Samsung Pay to see a higher spike in the usage.
Convenient - yes.
Secure? Debatable because you have your credit card info on your phone.
The automakers need to come up with a standard and I think that is what they are doing. My best guess is that the future will be some sort of facial recognition tech to start your car as long as your iphone or Apple Watch is in some sort of proximity, no need to take anything out of your pocket at all. Making cars harder to steel is in the best introduction everyone, insurance companies will be happy for something like this.
Cars will not be "harder" to steal if its loaded with tech. It'll just be as easy. There are already people that know how to hack Tesla and control them remotely.
I'm 6'4" so I should be good. At work, I leave my prox card in my wallet and never take my wallet out of my pocket to open doors.
This is not an accurate statement:
source: https://www.bmwblog.com/2018/09/13/b...-and-8-series/
They reason the other articles specify Android smartphones is to distinguish that this won't work with an iPhone. Apple only allows NFC to be used for Apple Pay, nothing else. If they're offering a card, there's no technical reason that would prevent anything with an NFC tag from being paired. There might be other restrictions, but we don't know that yet.
As a sidebar, it is incredibly ironic that one's smartphone needs to be an Android to unlock and start the car, but has to be an iPhone to integrate with the infotainment.
Agree with you here, and whether that's a problem or not is going to be very specific to the individual. Presumably it's just an option, and not a replacement for Comfort Access. If so, more choice=win, even if some people won't want to utilize the option at all, or not all the time. If it is a full replacement for CA, then I agree it's stupid and a hassle.
If it's just an additional, optional way of unlocking/starting a car, then it could add convenience on a situational basis. For example, when I pick my son up from Taekwondo, I often don't even bother to put my shoes on. My phone is already in my hand (because he called me), so I could head straight out the door without worrying about grabbing my keys.
At work, I leave my prox card in my wallet and never take my wallet out of my pocket to open doors.This is not an accurate statement:
source: https://www.bmwblog.com/2018/09/13/b...-and-8-series/
They reason the other articles specify Android smartphones is to distinguish that this won't work with an iPhone. Apple only allows NFC to be used for Apple Pay, nothing else. If they're offering a card, there's no technical reason that would prevent anything with an NFC tag from being paired. There might be other restrictions, but we don't know that yet.
As a sidebar, it is incredibly ironic that one's smartphone needs to be an Android to unlock and start the car, but has to be an iPhone to integrate with the infotainment.
Agree with you here, and whether that's a problem or not is going to be very specific to the individual. Presumably it's just an option, and not a replacement for Comfort Access. If so, more choice=win, even if some people won't want to utilize the option at all, or not all the time. If it is a full replacement for CA, then I agree it's stupid and a hassle.
If it's just an additional, optional way of unlocking/starting a car, then it could add convenience on a situational basis. For example, when I pick my son up from Taekwondo, I often don't even bother to put my shoes on. My phone is already in my hand (because he called me), so I could head straight out the door without worrying about grabbing my keys.
Actually - my statement is still accurate. Because its still true that the BMW digital key doesn't pair with NFC clothing and only pairs with the NFC in some Android system right now.
They BMW Key Card - is a totally different situation. Its separate unit to what we are talking about. The BMW Key Card is the same as the Tesla Model 3 Key Card - which is usually seen as the back-up method to getting into your car.
Agreed. The hassle or problem relies on the individual but that's the problem with the tech. We need a tech that improves on the idea of the modern key fob, which benefits everyone. We can't reverse back in innovation to benefit some people.
Agreed. More choice = win and luxury. The BMW Digital Key is just an option. However - its an option that fully replaces the standard key fob. Like what you said, the full replacement of the key fob is stupid, I agree it is stupid.
They should do a Comfort Access and Comfort Access Plus package or something.... Meaning - the plus package can offer the standard key fob + the BMW digital key. This gives drivers the option to use both.
10-12-18, 10:39 AM
#98
Lexus Fanatic
Why do you assume that the phone would “have” to come out of you pocket or purse to unlock a door?
Not sure how you can say that paying with your phone is the future but Apple Pay is a gimmick. I use my phone to pay almost 9 out of 10 transactions per day, how is it a gimmick? (More in Canada than in the US)
Not sure how you can say that paying with your phone is the future but Apple Pay is a gimmick. I use my phone to pay almost 9 out of 10 transactions per day, how is it a gimmick? (More in Canada than in the US)
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 10-12-18 at 11:10 AM.
10-12-18, 12:43 PM
#99
drives cars
I think the argument that it is a gimmick is that passive entry has been a thing for a while now, so there's no need for it. However I think it'd be a nice backup plan if you lost your key and still needed to get into the car. I don't see it as a gimmick, just another option.
10-12-18, 12:45 PM
#100
Lexus Fanatic
I think the argument that it is a gimmick is that passive entry has been a thing for a while now, so there's no need for it. However I think it'd be a nice backup plan if you lost your key and still needed to get into the car. I don't see it as a gimmick, just another option.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 10-12-18 at 12:50 PM.
10-12-18, 01:10 PM
#101
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Why do you assume that the phone would “have” to come out of you pocket or purse to unlock a door?
Not sure how you can say that paying with your phone is the future but Apple Pay is a gimmick. I use my phone to pay almost 9 out of 10 transactions per day, how is it a gimmick? (More in Canada than in the US)
Not sure how you can say that paying with your phone is the future but Apple Pay is a gimmick. I use my phone to pay almost 9 out of 10 transactions per day, how is it a gimmick? (More in Canada than in the US)
Note: If the phone could have stayed in the pocket, wouldn't you think BMW would market this instead of showing you have to take out your phone?
Because you use Apple Pay 9 out of 10 times doesn't mean its not a gimmick - it just means you use it and you personally like it.
Its a gimmick because:
globally it only has 127 million users out of a global population of 7.7 billion.
but only 16% of that 127 million actually use it.
On top of that - only 5% of Americans use it out of a population of 327 million.
https://appleinsider.com/articles/18...d-for-payments
If it wasn't a gimmick, majority of the population would have adopted it already and use it everyday. If it wasn't a gimmick, and I could be paying with Apple Pay after dinner at my favorite french restaurant, where my friend is a chef.
FYI: I do like "e-wallet". I think it is the future, some day. But right now - its a gimmick because it doesn't work everywhere and we still are required to have our credit cards on us.
10-12-18, 01:44 PM
#102
drives cars
So let’s just say it makes it more secure. For example, instead of just a key fob, now the key fob is embedded into the phone, you enter your car and Face ID embedded in the steering wheel of windshield allows you start the car. Now you have a two factor method of enter and starting. So suppose the phone is stolen, you cannot start the car, as opposed to currently, anyone can steal your key. If you steal my purse, you can tap my debit or credit card for up $100 in purchases, if you steal my iPhone, you need my fingerprint (not even my four digit pin) to use my debit tap or credit tap.
10-12-18, 03:20 PM
#103
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
I think the argument that it is a gimmick is that passive entry has been a thing for a while now, so there's no need for it. However I think it'd be a nice backup plan if you lost your key and still needed to get into the car. I don't see it as a gimmick, just another option.
Its only because passive entry has been a thing since the mid 2000s. We don't need to go back to taking stuff out to open up car doors.
I agree with your last statement. Its what Gecko referred too which I agree with him too. If they packaged the options together, IE: have the key fob and the Digital key, then it'll be perfect. It'll give people the option to have both if they want both.
So let’s just say it makes it more secure. For example, instead of just a key fob, now the key fob is embedded into the phone, you enter your car and Face ID embedded in the steering wheel of windshield allows you start the car. Now you have a two factor method of enter and starting. So suppose the phone is stolen, you cannot start the car, as opposed to currently, anyone can steal your key. If you steal my purse, you can tap my debit or credit card for up $100 in purchases, if you steal my iPhone, you need my fingerprint (not even my four digit pin) to use my debit tap or credit tap.
The Tesla Model 3 phone key is good first step and I like it. The Model 3 digital key uses bluetooth instead of NFC - this allows the car to unlock when its about less than 30 feet away from you.
While I do like it, I think this tech is still too new and unsafe still. We need to find a way to lower the bluetooth signal or use something else to decrease the signal to about an arm's length but with a phone. This way - the car key fob can be fully removed and the phone acts as the actual key fob.
Note: There is a lot of people on Tesla forums complaining how the Model 3 key keeps the Tesla unlocked when they are at home. This is because they park out front and their bedroom is still about 30 feet away from the car. A lot of posters are saying they have to turn off bluetooth while at home to avoid the car being unlocked which is a hassle.
I think Face ID is a good way to do it in the future when the tech improves but not right now. Face ID is too gimmicky and glitchy right now. It can definitely be easily fooled and too expensive to put on a car. There are tons of videos on YouTube where Face ID is easily tricked. There is also videos of Face ID not recognizing a person's face after a haircut, excessive sweating, became red from sun burn, and etc...
A lot of people mistaken the things I type as a "hate" for tech. I live in the Bay Area, I live around tech, my cousins work in tech, and I rent my multiple properties to tech workers. I'm around this environment long enough to know that tech is not 100% perfect. We are pushing out tech at such a fast rate right now that a good percent of them are unnecessary and gimmicky. A company just released a new APP for SF Gov't to report poops on the ground. Like honestly? Do we need that? From my experience, over 50% of the tech that is produced, is useless and gimmicky.
Last edited by BippuLexus; 10-12-18 at 03:23 PM.
10-12-18, 04:49 PM
#104
Lexus Fanatic
I think Face ID is a good way to do it in the future when the tech improves but not right now. Face ID is too gimmicky and glitchy right now. It can definitely be easily fooled and too expensive to put on a car. There are tons of videos on YouTube where Face ID is easily tricked. There is also videos of Face ID not recognizing a person's face after a haircut, excessive sweating, became red from sun burn, and etc...
.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 10-12-18 at 04:56 PM.
10-12-18, 04:52 PM
#105
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
ok folks, time to give it a rest about the digital key, apple pay, etc.. all points have been beaten and no one's mind is changed. how about we get back to the new 3 series.